Reasonable faith

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Put bluntly, I don't think an individual can say what is reasonable, without reference to a wider community. Reasonable depends on a censensus - 'yes, I think your faith is reasonable'.

In the wooly thinking (not everyone is a rigorous philosopher) of the West, the position has moved somewhat to the ground that because I think something, that makes it reasonable.

... the person then has to present his/her thesis, with demonstrations and proofs ... multiple universe theory, is that reasonable? But is there proof?

My point is that we are led to believe that we are the arbiters of our own truths, and therefore we are the autonomous authorities of our existence. Fantasy is accorded the same value as insight and experience. Because I think it, it has a value. My wrong is equal to another's right. The value is not what is thought, but who thinks it.

I had a close friend whose self-image took a severe hammering as the result of three screwed-up relationships in a row. He embarked upon a process of self-affirmation, according to those books you can buy ... and engaged in a mirror-exercise which I now consider psychically and psychologically dangerous, and almost overnight turned from one of the most generous people I ever knew, to a tyrant ... it ended up that in one argument he defended the right to redefine the meaning of a word according to the context he wanted to express, that words become empty vessels, devoid of any meaning other than that which we attribute to them ... and that we are individually free to redefine them at will.

Talking to him became impossible on any meaningful level.


Thomas

There we have it. Reasonable faith by consensus. Someone can point to all that has preceded in history, but if the pointer is not what you like, then just ignore. You will probably not like what they are saying.

Please Thomas, you know very well "wooly thinking" is not confined to the west.

How close was this friend? Are you still in touch with him?

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Do you believe that God forgives you?

Hi Dondi,

God's essence is love. To me, Love is unconditional acceptance. Therefore it seems to me that God has nothing to forgive. He cannot be offended. God is beyond such pettiness of attributes. It is only by holding unforgiveness of others that one is not forgiven but in essence it is not God forgiving or not forgiving but rather we as humans, being forgiven as we forgive others. So in essence we as humans are responsible for forgiveness. It seems to me that God has set up a perfect self-regulating universe.

Love to All,
Jm

Thomas,

We are the arbitrators of our own truth. Just ask anybody what they think is true. It seems obvious to me. It seems to me that we do define our own words and create in a sense our own reality. Your friends views seem reasonable to me but then again I see things differently than you. Concensus is whatever society deems appropriate at a particular time period and may or may not be related to truth. Reasonableness to me therefore remains with no absolute standard since even concensus is subject to reasoners and the teachings of the time.

Peace,
JM

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by pattimax

There we have it. Reasonable faith by consensus. Someone can point to all that has preceded in history, but if the pointer is not what you like, then just ignore.

Truth is agreed by consensus, that's why in science, for example, a truth is not accepted as a truth until it can be demonstrated to be so. In the absence of proof, the acceptance of truth becomes a matter of faith ... even in the scientific community.

Originally Posted by pattimax

You will probably not like what they are saying.

One might not like a doctor's diagnosis, and one is entitled to a second opinion, but to ignore what the doctor says, because it's bad news ... is that reasonable?

Originally Posted by pattimax

Please Thomas, you know very well "wooly thinking" is not confined to the west.

I know, but it is epidemic in the west.

Originally Posted by pattimax

How close was this friend? Are you still in touch with him?

Very close, and yes.
Thomas

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Truth is agreed by consensus, that's why in science, for example, a truth is not accepted as a truth until it can be demonstrated to be so. In the absence of proof, the acceptance of truth becomes a matter of faith ... even in the scientific community.
Thomas

I thought the Holy Spirit guided us "into all truth".

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by JosephM

We are the arbitrators of our own truth. Just ask anybody what they think is true. It seems obvious to me. It seems to me that we do define our own words and create in a sense our own reality.

Like the bloke who thinks he can drink 8 pints and still drive?

Do not philosphies stand or fall on concensus? Why is it that a Plato is memorable, and the bloke down the pub is not?

Does this not render the world entirely subjective?

Then it's every man for himself, is that what you're saying?

One of my favourite sayings from my studies of medieval Japan:
"The strong eat. The weak are meat."
That was the rule, and that was reasonable.

I'm not saying reason is an absolute, but I am saying without some notion of an absolute standard, everything becomes relative, everything is negotiable, and eventually everything is negotiated away ...

Thomas

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Truth is agreed by consensus,Thomas

Sorry truth to me is from the bible and the Holy Spirit.
I could care less what any man says truth is supposed to be. Whether his name is preceded by Pope or if he is seen on 40 million TVs means nothing.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by JosephM

God's essence is love. To me, Love is unconditional acceptance. Therefore it seems to me that God has nothing to forgive. He cannot be offended. God is beyond such pettiness of attributes. It is only by holding unforgiveness of others that one is not forgiven but in essence it is not God forgiving or not forgiving but rather we as humans, being forgiven as we forgive others. So in essence we as humans are responsible for forgiveness. It seems to me that God has set up a perfect self-regulating universe.

Is love just mere acceptance? Does God accept the vilest offender without recourse? On what basis is His forgiveness?

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Then it's every man for himself, is that what you're saying?

When it comes to salvation? I believe "yes".

I'm not saying reason is an absolute, but I am saying without some notion of an absolute standard, everything becomes relative, everything is negotiable, and eventually everything is negotiated away ...

Thomas

The way I see it, G-d is the "absolute standard".

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Dondi

What constitutes reasonable faith?

....

Is your's a reasonable faith?

Hi,

This is, to me, an interesting topic; but I would have liked to see it in a broader forum for people of other faiths to engage in it perhaps.

s.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi,

This is, to me, an interesting topic; but I would have liked to see it in a broader forum for people of other faiths to engage in it perhaps.

s.

I'll go for that. Can the moderators would move this in, say, the Belief and Spirituality forum?

[Snoopy]

nice one!

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Truth is agreed by consensus, that's why in science, for example, a truth is not accepted as a truth until it can be demonstrated to be so. In the absence of proof, the acceptance of truth becomes a matter of faith ... even in the scientific community.

Very close, and yes.
Thomas

Science changes, so your truth changes. I pray that the right one will be found.


Good.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Like the bloke who thinks he can drink 8 pints and still drive?

Do not philosphies stand or fall on concensus? Why is it that a Plato is memorable, and the bloke down the pub is not?

Does this not render the world entirely subjective?

Then it's every man for himself, is that what you're saying?

One of my favourite sayings from my studies of medieval Japan:
"The strong eat. The weak are meat."
That was the rule, and that was reasonable.

I'm not saying reason is an absolute, but I am saying without some notion of an absolute standard, everything becomes relative, everything is negotiable, and eventually everything is negotiated away ...

Thomas

Hi Thomas,

Very entertaining.

It seems to me, the falling or standing of philosophies has little to do with memorable or not. It follows the whims of the times. The bloke down the pub has as much a right to be heard as Plato. Who you listen to or deem reasonable is your choice.

To me, Yes, this does render the world entirely subjective.

No, I am not saying every man for himself. You said that. I said what I said.

Yes, it seems to me that everything is relative and negotiable, and perhaps it can be negotiated away.

Peace,
JM

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Is love just mere acceptance? Does God accept the vilest offender without recourse? On what basis is His forgiveness?

Hello Dondi,

It seems to me, Yes, God loves all equally and accepts all of his creation equally without prejudice. His forgiveness is without need for basis yet our forgiveness of others dictates our own forgiveness (spritual law of God's perfect self-regulating universe). God created the heavens and the earth and all therein and saw that it was Good. He has not changed his mind even as regards what one might consider the vilest. In my view, It is not HE who needs to forgive, it is us. His mercy and forgiveness is without question.

Love in Christ,
JM

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Christianity is not equal to World Religions.

Hi,

Not sure what you mean by this; I would have thought that since Christianity is a religion and can be found all around the world, that it constitutes one of the “world religions” (as opposed to being geographically localised). In fact, numerically speaking it is one of the “Big 3”, together with Islam and Hinduism.


s.