Reasonable faith

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by JosephM

The bloke down the pub has as much a right to be heard as Plato. Who you listen to or deem reasonable is your choice.
To me, Yes, this does render the world entirely subjective.

I agree. I would express this as saying that we create our world from birth and our world dies with us. (But maybe you wouldn't express it like that. Damn that subjectivity.)

s.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

I agree. I would express this as saying that we create our world from birth and our world dies with us. (But maybe you wouldn't express it like that. Damn that subjectivity.)

s.

Hi Snoopy,

I find your expression very profound. Thank You.

JM

[Snoopy]

Stop it, I'll go all shy.

I've missed reading your posts actually.

s.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Hello Dondi,

It seems to me, Yes, God loves all equally and accepts all of his creation equally without prejudice. His forgiveness is without need for basis yet our forgiveness of others dictates our own forgiveness (spritual law of God's perfect self-regulating universe). God created the heavens and the earth and all therein and saw that it was Good. He has not changed his mind even as regards what one might consider the vilest. In my view, It is not HE who needs to forgive, it is us. His mercy and forgiveness is without question.

Love in Christ,
JM

So what is the basis for eternal life, forgiveness for each other? What if we were not capable of doing such?

[pattimax]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Hi,

Not sure what you mean by this; I would have thought that since Christianity is a religion and can be found all around the world, that it constitutes one of the “world religions” (as opposed to being geographically localised). In fact, numerically speaking it is one of the “Big 3”, together with Islam and Hinduism.


s.

Hey Snoopy!

It has to do with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Karen

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by pattimax

Hey Snoopy!

It has to do with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Karen

Oh, OK!

s.

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dondi

So what is the basis for eternal life, forgiveness for each other? What if we were not capable of doing such?

Hello again Dondi,

God is the basis of eternal life. (the foundation upon which eternal life rests)
In my view, whether one forgives others or not, life is eternal. The conditions may differ at a given moment in time but the spirit is eternal and not subject to death except in the duality of one's mind.

In my view, "What if" is a hypothetical situation that has no basis in reality. All things are possible therefore "not capable" is an oxymoron.

Peace,
JM

[Faithfulservant]

In the view of the bible and the Holy Spirit

Jesus is not a liar.. He said people will perish.. in two places right off the top of my head He said it TWICE in the same breath..

Luke 13:5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise
perish."

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

[JosephM]

Hello Faithfulservant,

It seems to me that you are correct. Jesus was not a liar. Perhaps though, he was often missunderstood. That which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. The flesh will perish whether you believe or not but the spirit is eternal. Whether in hell/torment or heaven, eternal is eternal with no beginning or end. To perish is only a figure of speech. Life eternal in Bible context is nothing more than to know God.
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Not knowing God is spoken of in the Bible as separation or death but in reality there is no death or separation except in the mind of flesh. God is present everywhere from the lowest depths to the highest high. He is omnipresent. Death has a sting to him who lives in sin but no reality to the eternal spirit. It seems to me that in reality it is impossible to separate yourself from God for by him all things are made and consist. Existence is only possible in the presence of God of which there is no place by definition that he isn't.

Just a view to consider,
Peace,
JM

[Thomas]

There are two arguments going on here ...

One is saying there are no absolutes that can be known, everything is relative, it's the argument of the Enlightenment and modernity.

The term reasonable then becomes meaningless. Everybody considers themselves reasonable. No one has the right to say they are not. As someone said, 'everything is permissable'.

The other is saying God is absolute.
Because God is absolute, I can make absolute statements.

What you cannot prove, however, is that the voice you hear is the voice of God. You may well think it is. You may think you're handsome.

I am saying:
Where God is concerned, as in science, there are absolutes that can be known.
We cannot individually assert them authoritatively.
The community agrees to an authoritative/absolute standard.
Those standards can change.

But some here argue that the community has no right to set a standard – that is seen as invasive, hierarchical and tyrannical.
And we know that individual standards are fallible.
So there are no 'standards' as such.
There is simply a state of complacency in which we're happy to live as long as 'they' do not make conditions too uncomfortable, personally.

So the argument of reason is invalid.

Pattimax pointed out that the West does not own 'wooly thinking'. I agree. But we set the standard for complacency, I think.

Thomas

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Hello Faithfulservant,

It seems to me that you are correct. Jesus was not a liar. Perhaps though, he was often missunderstood. That which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh. The flesh will perish whether you believe or not but the spirit is eternal. Whether in hell/torment or heaven, eternal is eternal with no beginning or end. To perish is only a figure of speech. Life eternal in Bible context is nothing more than to know God.
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Not knowing God is spoken of in the Bible as separation or death but in reality there is no death or separation except in the mind of flesh. God is present everywhere from the lowest depths to the highest high. He is omnipresent. Death has a sting to him who lives in sin but no reality to the eternal spirit. It seems to me that in reality it is impossible to separate yourself from God for by him all things are made and consist. Existence is only possible in the presence of God of which there is no place by definition that he isn't.

Just a view to consider,
Peace,
JM

So eternal life is knowing God by degrees? Seems like you are saying that everyone will have some sort of association with God. But how is a holy God approachable? Or is God holy? Is God just relative?

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dondi

So eternal life is knowing God by degrees? Seems like you are saying that everyone will have some sort of association with God. But how is a holy God approachable? Or is God holy? Is God just relative?

Hi Dondi,

It seems to me from the flesh standpoint of view we know God by degrees. We grow in understanding.

Perhaps, I am saying that everyone has an association with God. This view is founded on the principle that nothing exists without God. He is in and through all things whether one is conscious of it or not.

It seems to me that God is available to everyone at all times. In a sense, God is at all times approachable because he is always present. One may have built up barriers that we refer to as "sin" that would prevent such a conscious approach but that can be easily rectified by repentance and forgiveness. These are self created barriers where in reality none exists. In reality, there is 'no where' one needs to go to approach God.

Define Holy for me.
It seems to me that God is NOT relative, except in one's mind.

Love and Peace,
JM

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by JosephM

Hi Dondi,

It seems to me from the flesh standpoint of view we know God by degrees. We grow in understanding.

Perhaps, I am saying that everyone has an association with God. This view is founded on the principle that nothing exists without God. He is in and through all things whether one is conscious of it or not.

It seems to me that God is available to everyone at all times. In a sense, God is at all times approachable because he is always present. One may have built up barriers that we refer to as "sin" that would prevent such a conscious approach but that can be easily rectified by repentance and forgiveness. These are self created barriers where in reality none exists. In reality, there is 'no where' one needs to go to approach God.

Define Holy for me.
It seems to me that God is NOT relative, except in one's mind.

Love and Peace,
JM

You see, that's the rub, then. If there is a need for repentance and forgiveness, then it is a real barrier from experiencing God in the light of His Holiness. God's Holiness is a characteristic of God that attempts to explain His Pure Nature. Of course, the Ten Commandments really describe what God is not (i.e. the characteristics of expressing Love in the form of not insulting God nor exhibit malicious behavior toward thy neighbor). It is the Holy Spirit's job to inform us when we go awry (hence the name Holy Spirit), in which case we are responsible to react accordingly. When we do not, it will inhibit our ability to know God's will and frankly cause spiritual blindness as we exert our own selfish will.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Thomas

What you cannot prove, however, is that the voice you hear is the voice of God.

(imo) With the Holy Spirit as guide, you can know it's G-d's voice speaking. That is the point, isn't it? Doesn't G-d want us to hear His voice? When you hear G-d's voice repeatedly, it gets to the point where you recognize it.

"Be still and know that I am G-d". "And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left."

I am saying:
Where God is concerned, as in science, there are absolutes that can be known.

Can you prove it?

We cannot individually assert them authoritatively.

If they can be known, why can't we assert them?

The community agrees to an authoritative/absolute standard.

If it's an absolute, why does the community have to agree?

Those standards can change.

How can they change if they're absolutes?

So the argument of reason is invalid.

I thought that was your argument - that Christianity (or faith) had to be reasonable.

Perhaps I haven't understood what you're saying. I'm not trying to be obtuse and I'm really not trying to be arguementative.

I'm trying to understand why a person can't just listen to G-d and do as G-d wishes. Is your point that G-d isn't able to or doesn't make Himself known to "regular people"?

Thanks for your thoughts...

Best regards,
Mark

[JosephM]

Originally Posted by Dondi

You see, that's the rub, then. If there is a need for repentance and forgiveness, then it is a real barrier from experiencing God in the light of His Holiness. God's Holiness is a characteristic of God that attempts to explain His Pure Nature.

Of course, the Ten Commandments really describe what God is not (i.e. the characteristics of expressing Love in the form of not insulting God nor exhibit malicious behavior toward thy neighbor). It is the Holy Spirit's job to inform us when we go awry (hence the name Holy Spirit), in which case we are responsible to react accordingly. When we do not, it will inhibit our ability to know God's will and frankly cause spiritual blindness as we exert our own selfish will.

Hello Dondi,

It seems to me, in my view, your first paragraph (I divided it above) accessment is accurate as stated. Furthermore I might say (as you might know) that the barrier is not put there by God but rather by the choice of the individual. In essence what I am implying is that God neither requires forgiveness or repentance. Rather it is us that are in need of these things to have our self created barriers removed so the veil of separation will be exposed for what it is.

On the second part, it is my view that God cannot be insulted. God is complete and in need of nothing. In my view, He that is all powerful, all present and all knowing has none of the lower (antropomorphic) attributes we attribute to men such as being insulted or offended, hate, revenge, jealousy, anger, etc... (I am aware The Bible does not agree with my view) In my view, we are free to choose spiritual blindness or exert our own selfish will. It has ramifications/consequences but God does not "require" us to act in a particular way else choice would not be choice. It would seem to me that all things at this moment in time are 'perfect' as they are.

Just some thoughts to consider,
Love and Peace,
JM