Reasonable faith

[Dondi]

How can all the poverty, violence, and death go away if we cannot change ourselves? Contrary to Billy Joel, we DID start the fire.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Sunny C.

I guess, if you equate the old sinful man with reason. So that would make being born again a process of losing one's capacity for reason?

Maybe so...I'm just thinking here but...

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8

and

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 14:12

Perhaps G-d's reasoning takes over and man doesn't need his as much or it becomes secondary to G-d's.

Thoughts?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

17th, stop being so obtuse, you know bloomin' well what I'm like, and what I mean!

How's the paper comin?

Originally Posted by Dondi

How can all the poverty, violence, and death go away if we cannot change ourselves?

We can't because we keep trying to change others and not ourcellves. And we keep saying if they won't change what good would it do for me to change.

[Sunny C.]

Originally Posted by Prober

Maybe so...I'm just thinking here but...

"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." John 3:8

and

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs 14:12

Perhaps G-d's reasoning takes over and man doesn't need his as much or it becomes secondary to G-d's.

Thoughts?

I'm OK with that so long as it's understood that all dogma is suspect. In most cases, though, it is my observation that those who quote Prov. 14:12 have been backed into a corner over the unreasonable nature of their argument, and rather than capitulate they throw that tired old piece out as if it saves them from the embarrassment of admitting they've lost the debate. If one is to subjegate their reason to that of God, then they should entirely eschew all elements of that reason including the dogma which they think is superior to reason. But that's not how it works, is it? A person subscribes to a less than reasonable dogma, and then pretends that that dogma is tantamount to God's reason instead of an invention of man. You can't have it both ways, IMO. I'm not sure what makes them think that "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" doesn't refer to them.

Sunny

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Sunny C.

I'm OK with that so long as it's understood that all dogma is suspect.

Oh yeah, I agree. "Dogma" should just be a filler while you're waiting for G-d's word.

In most cases, though, it is my observation that those who quote Prov. 14:12 have been backed into a corner over the unreasonable nature of their argument, and rather than capitulate they throw that tired old piece out as if it saves them from the embarrassment of admitting they've lost the debate.

I agree that may sometimes be the case. But the text is still true (imo).

If one is to subjegate their reason to that of God, then they should entirely eschew all elements of that reason including the dogma which they think is superior to reason.

I completely agree.

But that's not how it works, is it? A person subscribes to a less than reasonable dogma, and then pretends that that dogma is tantamount to God's reason instead of an invention of man.

All too often true. I agree that it shouldn't be that way.

You can't have it both ways, IMO. I'm not sure what makes them think that "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" doesn't refer to them.

Sunny

Very true.

I think you have to look at it like "I think I'll have cereal for breakfast, that seems reasonable". And then G-d says "Have avocados" and you switch to avocados because G-d said so - an action which, from a human standpoint, is unreasonable.

Does that make sense?

Best regards,
Mark

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by Sunny C.

You can't have it both ways, IMO. I'm not sure what makes them think that "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death" doesn't refer to them.

The proverb is about those who seek evil, not dogma. There is a higher ideal than what man by nature, being attracted to the appetites of his basest desires, will not seek. Rather it leads to his own destruction. It is only when he recognizes this misdirection that he will seek for that higher ideal.

[Prober]

Dondi,

I'm glad to see your comment. It seemed like we had two threads on the same topic going inside this one thread and I was hoping that I wasn't a distraction to your comments.

Best regards,
Mark

ps I agree with your latest post.

[Dondi]

I hope I'm not intruding on your conversation with Sunny, Prober.

I had to go back to where you and Sunny started this line of "reasoning", shall we say. That was two pages back.

In consideration of the originating question by Sunny, "I guess, if you equate the old sinful man with reason. So that would make being born again a process of losing one's capacity for reason?", let me follow-up my comments with this:

I don't this it is so much a matter of losing the capability to reason as much as reasoning with new options. Reasoning with hope.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I hope I'm not intruding on your conversation with Sunny, Prober.

No, not at all. I'm happy someone else joined in!

In consideration of the originating question by Sunny, "I guess, if you equate the old sinful man with reason. So that would make being born again a process of losing one's capacity for reason?", let me follow-up my comments with this:

I don't this it is so much a matter of losing the capability to reason as much as reasoning with new options. Reasoning with hope.

Hey, I like that!

[Sunny C.]

Originally Posted by Prober

Oh yeah, I agree. "Dogma" should just be a filler while you're waiting for G-d's word.

But what one perceives to be God's voice is filtered through, and is a reflection of the dogma. We talked about how the HS plays the bones in one's head. What does the voice of God sound like sans a predilection toward a particular dogma? That's the question.

Sunny

[Sunny C.]

Originally Posted by Dondi

The proverb is about those who seek evil, not dogma. There is a higher ideal than what man by nature, being attracted to the appetites of his basest desires, will not seek. Rather it leads to his own destruction. It is only when he recognizes this misdirection that he will seek for that higher ideal.

I agree in principle, but when it says that the way seems "right", doesn't that imply an effort, even though it is implied that the effort is misguided, toward doing what that which is right? So it's not a "seeking of evil", but a misguided persuit of right.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by Sunny C.

But what one perceives to be God's voice is filtered through, and is a reflection of the dogma.

No, I don't think so. What one perceives G-d's voice to be saying is (imo).

We talked about how the HS plays the bones in one's head. What does the voice of God sound like sans a predilection toward a particular dogma? That's the question.

Sunny

"A word in your ear behind you"? "A still, small voice"?

[Sunny C.]

Originally Posted by Prober

"A word in your ear behind you"? "A still, small voice"?

A still, small voice suggesting "this way is right"? But then, there is a way which seems right unto a man...etc. Avocados for breakfast indeed! Would you jump off a cliff if God said jump? Would you murder someone if God said kill? Why not? Because it's unreasonable, and God isn't unreasonable? Well, what makes you think that? Reason?

Sunny

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Sunny!

Originally Posted by Sunny C.

What does the voice of God sound like sans a predilection toward a particular dogma?

A conscience?

[Sunny C.]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Sunny!

A conscience?

It doesn't sound. It feels. It's kinda like that hot and cold kids find-it game. When your getting closer it feels like nice jacuzzi water coming up your spine and into your head. When you're getting colder it feels like gathering nauseousness.