Reconcling Christianity and Islam ?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Your bluntness is admirable lol.....

Maybe. Maybe not.

Where does it say that? Show me.

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)


[Bayyinah 98:6] Indeed all disbelievers, the People of the Book(s) and the polytheists, are in the fire of hell – they will remain in it for ever; it is they who are the worst among the creation.

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" Surah 2: 106

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Surah 16:101

[Dream]

Christianity: Jesus Christ is God.
Islam: Jesus Christ is not God.

I'd say there's no reconciling that.

The true reconciliation between the people of Islam and the Christians will be a change in the name of the Orthodox. Islam arose in the gap between the Orthodox Christians and the non-Orthodox Christians, and the claim of orthodoxy is the stone that will be rolled away. If you would lead, then lead by example! My opinion.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not." Surah 16:101

Well I am not "most of them" I understand very well that Muhammad was just another warlord, using placatory politics to accrue allies in the beginning and then changing his tune when he achieved dominance. Muhammad was a bloodthirsty, devious and extremely malicious psychopath. Nothing more, nothing less. Maybe many Muslims do not understand the fact of what their religion says but the leaders and the coven of deceptive propagandists that take liberties with the truth to promote a so called 'peaceful Islam' do. Such deception is written into the Koran, it is an order, a command. And that is the truth.

tao

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by Dream

The true reconciliation between the people of Islam and the Christians will be a change in the name of the Orthodox. Islam arose in the gap between the Orthodox Christians and the non-Orthodox Christians, and the claim of orthodoxy is the stone that will be rolled away. If you would lead, then lead by example! My opinion.

Que?

Isn't this thread about somehow combining the two doctrines into one? The doctrines are mutually incompatible.

Christianity teaches that Jesus is God, and this is a central dogma.
Islam teaches that Jesus is not God.

The two are mutually incompatible.

This has nothing to do with whether or not people adhering to these doctrines cannot learn to tolerate each other. There are times when one simply agrees to disagree and doesn't pursue the matter further.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Dogbrain

Christianity: Jesus Christ is God.
Islam: Jesus Christ is not God.

I'd say there's no reconciling that.

SOME forms of christianity: Jesus is god... Not all...

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by Alex P

SOME forms of christianity: Jesus is god... Not all...

Merely "some"? That's dishonest. The vast majority of Christianity adheres to the doctrine of the Divinity of Christ.

So, unless you'd like everyone to presume extremist terrorists as the sum total of Islam, small minority doctrines are not to be considered normative for a religion.

Of course, if you're going to stand your ground on this, then it's just as valid to use the Muslim terrorist as the normative Muslim.

[17th Angel]

Who cares about numbers? lol... Just don't throw everyone in the same pot with a blanket statement like that.


So OP, things such as who is god who isn't god shouldn't matter... Love one another... Both religions spread peace teach peace practice peace.... Right? So practice it... It doesn't really matter if your black if your a jew a russian a man a woman a christian a muslim... Just love one another... It isn't the religions at fault, it is simply most do not fully understand nor follow their religion.

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Who cares about numbers?

Let's see--people who want a normative view of something and would rather that an extremist minority not be used to define their religion. See also image of Islam in the West...

[dauer]

Dogbrain,

unless I misunderstand you, in another forum you made the opposite argument against me for generalizing Christianity in ways that did not acknowledge Eastern Orthodox perspectives. Are you saying that Eastern Orthodoxy is not normative Christianity because it is a minority within Christianity? At what number of adherents does a perspective become worth taking into account? Is your issue primarily with a perceived generalization of Christianity based on a minority or with the inclusion of the minority?

-- Dauer

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Dogbrain

This has nothing to do with whether or not people adhering to these doctrines cannot learn to tolerate each other. There are times when one simply agrees to disagree and doesn't pursue the matter further.

Exactly. Doctrinal differences are an issue only when a religion's practitioners lack tolerance.

If orthodoxy is an issue, perhaps one should turn one's attention to those who identify with a religion but don't agree with all its major tenets. For example, there are no doubt many who consider themselves Christians who don't believe in the Trinity or in the divinity of Christ. There are also those who believe that Jesus faked his death, got married, and had a family. What are we going to do about these people? Anything?

I think perhaps these kinds of discussions ascribe far more importance to doctrinal matters than the average practitioner does.

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by dauer

Dogbrain,

unless I misunderstand you, in another forum you made the opposite argument against me for generalizing Christianity in ways that did not acknowledge Eastern Orthodox perspectives.

I have never gone so far as to say that a mere "some" Christians hold to the Western doctrines. That's the difference.

Is your issue primarily with a perceived generalization of Christianity based on a minority or with the inclusion of the minority?

My issue is the tension between the two.

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

There are also those who believe that Jesus faked his death, got married, and had a family. What are we going to do about these people?

Define "we", and I would have a better idea.

If, by "we" you mean my specific religious tradition, "we" would show them the door. They would have already separated themselves from the Church, since "we" make no bones about the importance of doctrine. "We" are not a social club or charitable society, although "we" do perform charity and socialize with each other--neither are "our" primary purpose. Freedom of association includes freedom of non-association.

If, by "we", you mean a larger group that I am only incidentally included in due to broad definitions, then "we" do nothing beyond express "our" particular opinions/doctrines on the matter.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

If you truly understood the jurisprudence of the Koran and understood where abrogation is to be applied you would know that the above were superseded and rendered invalid. Yes!! In the Koran 'Allah' can change his mind!!

You're right, we should not allow inconsistent deities and shifting sands scriptures to get in the way of our understanding of religion.

Maybe we should talk about more interesting things - like your favorite flavor seaweed.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Dogbrain

Define "we", and I would have a better idea.

...If by "we", you mean a larger group that I am only incidentally included in due to broad definitions, then "we" do nothing beyond express "our" particular opinions/doctrines on the matter.

That was just a manner of speaking. I used the "us" to invoke a hypothetical, Generalized Other - a group of social actors who feel strongly enough about doctrinal differences to do something about it.

Quite often, ideology informs praxis. But of course that is not always the case.

[Dream]

The key to reconciling Muslims with Christians is not to convince Muslims to conform with our orthodoxy, but for Christians to become free again. With 'Orthodoxy' there is an automatic assumption of 'What I say is right'. Who did Islam learn this from and who was its role model? Christians who forgot that orthodoxy is preserved by heaven alone. Islam was born into a world in which might was right, and it reflects that in its traditions and structure, believing that wealth is visited upon the Muslim whom God honors (observe the honor of sheiks). Submission, orthodoxy, and might are key principles in Islam, but these are key priniciples in any institution claiming orthodoxy.

Yet I know that within Christianity is the repudiation of idolatry, which is obvious as you can trace the idea back through Torah. Every Christian word is saying 'No one is allowed to be the king, here.' Christians ought to trust God to preserve their doctrines safely in heaven, far from the pens of men yet close to men in practice. Christianity is supposed to be a community that avoids centralized authorities and other human means of guaranteeing orthodoxy. Did Abraham write a 20 volume commentary upon the gospel? We know that it was preached to him, so how was it preserved from his time to Jesus time?