Reconcling Christianity and Islam ?

[farhan]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

The sword cuts both ways. The best lesson we can learn from it is that of mercy.

Originally Posted by Alex P

I was hoping for Farhan to answer... but A* To SG for her egerness!!!

Indeed, JC said that... So even before we look at your(Farhan) Understanding of the Luke account... Does it seem logical that jesus is telling others to take up arms?...

1. One of the lessons is mercy.
2. He didnt say "throw away your sword", which shows its necessity.
3. What I see here is, "keep your sword with you, undrawn". Its a powerful message. I am not going to hurt you, and I am not going to tolerate me being hurt either.
4. Apart from all that, there is the context. Jesus being arrested, & he saying,"its written, let it happen". What if some "it" is not written? Not a good idea to interpret it only after de-contextualizing. And then accepting it as an absolute principle.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by farhan

1. One of the lessons is mercy.
2. He didnt say "throw away your sword", which shows its necessity.
3. What I see here is, "keep your sword with you, undrawn". Its a powerful message. I am not going to hurt you, and I am not going to tolerate me being hurt either.
4. Apart from all that, there is the context. Jesus being arrested, & he saying,"its written, let it happen". What if some "it" is not written? Not a good idea to interpret it only after de-contextualizing. And then accepting it as an absolute principle.

For Christians, the sword of the Spirit is the word of God. That's the two-edged sword you keep. (See Ephesians 6:17, Hebrews 4:12, Isaiah 49:2, and Revelations 1 & 2)

The two-way cutting action the literal sword that you use for bloodshed is that by cutting others' bodies with your sword, you are also cutting away at your own humanity--your soul, by killing your conscience. Once you kill one person, the next becomes easier to kill, and the next one becomes yet even easier. Next thing you know, you have no conscience or humanity left, even though you may still be walking around in a body.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Seattlegal

...and then, later on in Luke 22, when Peter used the sword to cut off the ear of the high priest's servant, Jesus said, "No more of this!" and healed the man's ear. What was the lesson do you think he was teaching here?

Two ideas: Vengence is a sham, and Jesus may have been claiming equality with the high priest.

Who can actually pay for the years a servant has spent with a master? You may as well ask who can replace an ear that's been chopped off, so perhaps Jesus is commenting upon the Laws of human ownership. These begin in Exodus right after the 10 Commandments and one of the first things mentioned is eye 4 eye and tooth 4 tooth, release of servants. According to the Way a servant should go free for losing an ear in his master's service, but the intended idea should be that the servant's ear is irreplaceable. Repayments cannot ever truly be just, and legal remedies or redress of wrongs are only ideals that serve to rebuke the original losses.

Also Jesus miraculously replaces the ear of the high priest's servant, which could be a claim to equality with the high priest IMO. To replace that lost servant, Peter who was Jesus servant likely would have been indentured to take the h.priest's servant's place becoming property of the high priest. You could say that for a moment Peter was not Jesus servant anymore but became someone else's. There may also have been other punishments for Peter like losing his own ear or possibly a fine. These things did not happen since Jesus replaced the ear, but how does this Jesus replacing the ear square with the Law, and who could replace the servant of a high priest except an equal?

Originally Posted by Exodus 21:23-27

But if any harm follow, then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. And if a man smite the eye of his bondman, or the eye of his bondwoman, and destroy it, he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. And if he smite out his bondman's tooth, or his bondwoman's tooth, he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake...

[omprem]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Where was that again? Was it this part here?.....

YUSUFALI: Let there be no compulsion in religion

PICKTHAL: There is no compulsion in religion.

SHAKIR: There is no compulsion in religion

Which translation of Qur'an, 2:256 do you like best, friend Tao?

Exactly. Now if you could explain how Iran justified a program of murder to get rid of its Baha'i poplution I be interested in seeing how that explanation fits in with the Qur'an quote above.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by omprem

....how Iran justified a program of murder to get rid of its Baha'i poplution I be interested in seeing how that explanation fits in with the Qur'an quote above.

Do you have any reason to believe there is a relationship between Iran's policies and the Koran? If so, please explain.

[Radunzel]

Abrahams gods personal name is Yahweh.. yet the jews never mention it .. ha shem.. YET muslims call him allah.. even if you believe the jews doctored scriptures over time ( as is islamic belief) then they would never lie about THAT! lol so it becomes fairly self evident that it the quran isnt from god.. because god seems not to remember his name!

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by Radunzel

Abrahams gods personal name is Yahweh.. yet the jews never mention it .. ha shem.. YET muslims call him allah.. even if you believe the jews doctored scriptures over time ( as is islamic belief) then they would never lie about THAT! lol so it becomes fairly self evident that it the quran isnt from god.. because god seems not to remember his name!

"Allah" is not a name. It is a reference. It is no more the name of God than "God" is the name of God. Structurally, "Allah" is very close to the Greek way of referring to God within Christianity, "ho Theos". Both literally mean "the god", taken to intend to mean "the sole or only god".

[Abdillah]

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Allah says in the sacred Quran: Say: "Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (the Beneficent), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names" (17:110)

Allah means "He who alone is worthy of all devotion". The name Allah is in Arabic, and is similar to its Hebrew counterpart "Eloah", and its Aramaic (the language of Jesus) equivalent "Elaha". Allah or God has many names. It is not right to say that you can only use one name, be it Ha Shem, Yehovah, Elohim, Adonai, Allah, God, Khuda, Lord, etc.

[Radunzel]

Al (the) lah (god)

yeah of that i do know.. yet you seem to have tiptoed around the actual point

as you say many names for one god. that much is true yet all of those either reference to a name or just a gods name (ha shem, allah, lord) not the actual revealed name of the abrahamic god which isnt jehovah either..

surely a clear ayaat for a non believer would be.. the unspeakable name referenced in some way. not an amalgomation with the pagan god and "his daughters" as being one of the same one all along.

[Abdillah]

Originally Posted by Radunzel

Al (the) lah (god)

Not exactly. God is an English word derived from the Germanic "Gott" which has limited meaning. To say that Ilah simply means god is oversimplifying. The true meaning of Allah is "The one who alone is worthy of devotion".

as you say many names for one god. that much is true yet all of those either reference to a name or just a gods name (ha shem, allah, lord) not the actual revealed name of the abrahamic god which isnt jehovah either surely a clear ayaat for a non believer would be.. the unspeakable name referenced in some way. not an amalgomation with the pagan god and "his daughters" as being one of the same one all along.

I do not exactly understand what you are trying to say. If you are talking about the tetragrammaton, than it is YHVH in Hebrew, and it means "I am".

But when he came to the (fire), a voice was heard from the right bank of the valley, from a tree in hallowed ground: "O Moses! Verily, I am, am Allah, the Lord of the Worlds (28:30)

Ya Moosa innee ana Allahu rabbul 'alameen

[Radunzel]

How can allah mean "The one who alone is worthy of devotion".


when the diety of pre-islamic arabia regularly had idols or had prayers for his daughters? as is mentioned either quranicly or historically? if that is what the word truely means, then the pagans wouldnt have worshipped idols with a name like that!

"hello Mr. only worship me... would you mind if i worshiped this statue in your name?"

Allah can only mean that by conjecture and dewy eyed retrospect =P

yeah im talking about the tetragrammaton.. show me the sura its in and i shall accept that it is the same diety..

hehehe

[GlorytoGod]

I'm not sure that the Allah of the Quran is the same God as that of the Bible, I know Muslims say that it is but many Christians say otherwise and would say that Allah is not YAHWEH, and that is what I am inclined to believe.

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by Abdillah

The true meaning of Allah is "The one who alone is worthy of devotion".

The entirety of linguistics would disagree with you. "Allah" is a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- and ʾilāh "deity, god", the contraction "Allah" meaning "the God", with the implication of being "the only God". This is the plain, scientific truth of the word's derivation. "Allah" is not the exclusive property of Muslims, either. Arabic Christians use "Allah" in their prayer, worship, and theological discussions and have been doing so since before Islam existed.

[Abdillah]

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

Originally Posted by Radunzel

when the diety of pre-islamic arabia regularly had idols or had prayers for his daughters? as is mentioned either quranicly or historically? if that is what the word truely means, then the pagans wouldnt have worshipped idols with a name like that!

The pagans of Arabia worshiped Allah, but falsely ascribed daughters to him. They would fashion idols of deities and say that by being devoted to them they were getting closer to Allah. The message of Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) was the same message as Abraham and all the prophets, that Allah is One, He has no daughters, sons, parents, etc. He alone is worthy of all acts of devotion. The pagans of Arabia believed that Allah is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, but they did not accept that only He is worthy of all devotion. Similarly, the Christians believe that God is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, yet they ascribe a son to Him and they worship others beside God claiming they are gaining nearness to Him. It is this false claim of the pagans, christians and non-Muslims in general that Muhammad (alaihi salatu wa salam) was sent to rectify.

yeah im talking about the tetragrammaton.. show me the sura its in and i shall accept that it is the same diety..
hehehe

The tetragrammaton is the Hebrew word which means "I am". When Moses asked God to tell Him who He was, He said "I am who I am" and this is the origin of Yahveh or Yehovah. However, this is in Hebrew, but the Quran is in Arabic. The same story is mentioned, by Allah says

"O Moses! Verily, I am, am Allah, the Lord of the Worlds (28:30)

Ya Moosa innee ana Allah (O Moses, I am, am Allah). This is because Allah is also referred to not only by proper names, but also by pronouns. For example, the Sufis (Islamic mystics) refer to Allah by the pronoun Hu which means "Is" and the sacred Quran: Allah there is god but He (2:255) La ilaha illa Huwa so they also refer to Him as Huwa which means "He".

The entirety of linguistics would disagree with you. "Allah" is a contraction of the Arabic definite article al- and ʾilāh "deity, god", the contraction "Allah" meaning "the God", with the implication of being "the only God". This is the plain, scientific truth of the word's derivation. "Allah" is not the exclusive property of Muslims, either. Arabic Christians use "Allah" in their prayer, worship, and theological discussions and have been doing so since before Islam existed.

The problem is that the word God is not the best meaning of Ilah. Ilah means an object of devotion, and Allah means the One and Only object of devotion. Thus La ilaha illa Allah means "There is none worthy of devotion other than Allah". If Ilah meant simply god, than it would mean "there is no god but God" which is not the significance of La ilaha illa Allah

[Radunzel]

He he true is that i think can we come to agreement that allah means

THE Diety

but still my friend refering to yahweh.. if the language of which things are said doesnt matter THEN im sure the salat is valid in any language!

hehehhe!

=P