Reincarnation Paradox

[Silverbackman]

I have always believed in reincarnation because to me it wouldn't make sense for awareness to just die off forever. It makes the most sense of any other explanation on what happens after death also because any other explanation of life after death emphasizes the importance of this life. It doesn't make any sense to me why our 60-100+ years in this world would either be our determining factor for eternity after death or our only sentient existence.

However in all truth reincarnation seems to be, there is one thing that arises. If we were to freeze a person after death and bring them to life what would happen? If the laws of reincarnation do exist, this would raise two possibilities. Either the new conscious awareness transfers from the new body back to the original body or the conscious awareness remains in the new body and the old body..............Well I'm not sure what happens to the old body.

Perhaps you cannot bring people from the dead? Nope, this isn't necessarily true. In fact there have been many cases where people actually did die but were brought back to life by doctors somehow (like reviving the heart).

Actually not too long ago there was a case in Africa where a man did just that. I forgot the source of the story but the man stated that he went to a realm that he described was the Biblical heaven. He was dead for 3 days but supposedly doctors brought him back to life on the third day.

Is it possible the man was in the next life or going to it before he returned to his old body? Then perhaps when you revive a being, his or her life does return to the old body but I wonder what happens to the new one. Does it disappear out of reality and forgotten? One can only ponder.

Even today people are starting to freeze their bodies after death so when advanced technology comes out in the future they can revive them. When these people are unfrozen and brought back to life in the future one can only wonder what would happen.

Or perhaps conscious awareness is more physical than we thought but then many things wouldn't make sense (why this life?).

What do you think?

[path_of_one]

Or if you froze the body, it would trap the soul in limbo, unable to take a new body and stuck in an officially dead one. Yikes. If that's how it works, I'd hate to be one of those people!

Or the body that is dead and then brought back to life would be taken by a new spirit, while the old spirit already moved on and took a new body. So the person who was brought back to life would no longer be "themselves" and yet have the same genetic code and memories of the old person. Interesting and not impossible, though complicated.

Or reincarnation happens in such a way that there is a way station between this life and our next incarnation. So the soul would be hanging out there, whether you call it the Summerlands or whatever. Some religions think that this the case, and would explain the numerous people who have had near-death experiences and were revived, who went to such a place. I've never heard of a near-death experience in which the person's spirit went directly to a new fetus. This can be taken to mean that reincarnation does not happen, or it can be taken to mean that there is a delay of some sort (generally a positive delay!).

Myself, I think it's a bad idea to try to revive long-dead people. I just don't "get it." Why would I want to spring back to life years after everyone I know and loved are dead? As far as I know, it's generally people who think there is no afterlife that volunteer for this science experiment in hopes that they can live forever.

That's pointless in my belief system because I am already immortal.

[sara[h]ng]

I'm not familiar enough with this idea to argue for it, but it is still interesting. I've heard that from a spiritual standpoint, time and space are human creations - that is, time does not exist in the spirit world. Hard concept for the human mind, but that simple fact does not make it impossible. If time does not exist in a spiritual realm, when a person loses his human consciousness, he may be aware of a 'time' in the 'future' when his body is to be revived and so, choose not to incarnate during that time.

Lots of points in there to debate, but I'm no expert in subject. Just a thought.

Sarah

[I, Brian]

If you're freezing someone - ie, cryogenically - then they are not really dead, so it's not so much of an issue of bringing them back - quite probably it's more like a period of sleep for the person. I don't think science has reached an actual point of being able to raise people from the dead yet, nor will do so for quite some time.

[Silverbackman]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

If you're freezing someone - ie, cryogenically - then they are not really dead, so it's not so much of an issue of bringing them back - quite probably it's more like a period of sleep for the person. I don't think science has reached an actual point of being able to raise people from the dead yet, nor will do so for quite some time.

Yes it would probably be like a deep sleep. Meaning that when you die a cryopreserve your body you will wake up right away once you die. Except your conciousness will probably be far into the future considering...........yes it will be some time before science can revive people from the dead.

So is anyone her going to cryopreserve their body when they die?

[China Cat Sunflower]

To say that I will have a future life begs the question: what exactly constitutes "I"? What of "me" is transferred to this future life? Is it anything that I would recognize as unique to me in my present life? Is it anything useful to me in terms of my present life? If it's just an amorphous "soul" that is somehow unique, but lacks any specific personality related to the goals or aspirations of my present life what good is it to me? Whether or not my essence goes on to another physical life doesn't seem to make any real difference because it lacks everything that constitutes the "me" of my understanding in this life. So again, what good is it?

Chris

[Silverbackman]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

To say that I will have a future life begs the question: what exactly constitutes "I"? What of "me" is transferred to this future life? Is it anything that I would recognize as unique to me in my present life? Is it anything useful to me in terms of my present life? If it's just an amorphous "soul" that is somehow unique, but lacks any specific personality related to the goals or aspirations of my present life what good is it to me? Whether or not my essence goes on to another physical life doesn't seem to make any real difference because it lacks everything that constitutes the "me" of my understanding in this life. So again, what good is it?

Chris

Yes, you said it right. This essence in reality makes no difference or benefit to us in our next life because it has no personality. It has no personality or anything about ourselves because our personality is the result of the physical existence (in our species the brain makes the personality.

So what good is it? My thoughts exactly! Surely there must be some way to stop the cycle. Many religions such as Hinduism and Buddhism claim ways to stop the cycle but none of them have been proven. Perhaps one day we will have the technology for immortality. That is why I see cryonics as a way to for delaying "death" until technology comes out to make us immortal.

That is the only way I see any value to our existence any more than just living life if you know what I mean.

[suanni]

I also raise another paradox here, not with cryogenics but with the possibility of regrowing the spinal cord.
Scientists believe they are close to doing that and many paraplegics have signed up to donate their brain for further experimentation.
If the brain can be kept alive in such a way for the spinal cord to regrow and be reimplanted in a functional body what then of the soul? Does the soul linger round to wait for the brain and body to be a coherent fully functioning living being or does something else take its place?
Why would the soul wish to linger around a still body when it could move on elsewhere.
3 days is nothing.. there is also another case of a man dying for 3 days and being brought back to life in Russia. He travelled around his loved ones whilst his body was in the morgue!
Reincarnation makes a great deal of sense to me, everything in life is recycled so why not the soul?

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

To say that I will have a future life begs the question: what exactly constitutes "I"? What of "me" is transferred to this future life? Is it anything that I would recognize as unique to me in my present life? Is it anything useful to me in terms of my present life? If it's just an amorphous "soul" that is somehow unique, but lacks any specific personality related to the goals or aspirations of my present life what good is it to me? Whether or not my essence goes on to another physical life doesn't seem to make any real difference because it lacks everything that constitutes the "me" of my understanding in this life. So again, what good is it?

Chris

The ancient Egyptians are one among many civilizations (and spiritual traditions) which attempted to answer this question succinctly. They taught the existence of different layers, or types, of "soul." You can find a more complete description here, but in short, there was the "khet" or "iru" - the body, or appearance with which we are all familiar ... the "ka" or vital soul - which animates our physical body during embodiment ... the "ba" or astral body (the emotive soul, or passions) ... and the "Akh" or Spirit - that which survives from incarnation to incarnation.

No, just because a similar classification exists in every major religion and spiritual tradition, does not necessarily mean that they point to a reality. However, when we add the testimony of literally thousands of people living today who have experienced & written about near-death and out-of-body experiences, we have a little more evidence to suggest that the ancients were right. One can also develop the psychic abilities that facilitate direct perception and apprehension of these various levels of the aura, or different "souls." Many have done just that, and they too, have written thousands of books on the subject. When I put it all together, the picture I get is that there is a reality behind teachings on reincarnation. Currently I am even exploring past-life regressions, including some accounts of individuals having incarnations on other planets. I remain healthily skeptical, which means I am cogitating and pondering on what I read. My core beliefs, however, are already well established.

I won't go on to provide another half dozen different systems of categorizing our subtle, or spiritual being, but I do want to at least point out that in the East, there existed the very same teachings mentioned above from ancient Egypt. The physical body was called the sthula sarira, and its animating principle is linga sarira. This is often called the etheric double, or health aura. It is a bio-magnetic field, can be observed and registered objectively, and corresponds to the Egyptian ka. What is important is to consider that intellect is not residentwithin the brain, let alone our personality, according to these systems.

Modern psychology has focused largely on the brain in an effort to understand our behaviour, and most certainly there has been a wealth of knowledge accumulated pertaining to the biochemical & neurological activity in the brain which accompanies everything from the slightest movement or nerve impulse, to wide & varied states of emotion, and a host of different types of mental activity. But the view in Eastern teachings, and one also accepted by many millions here in the West today, is that the brain acts similar to a radio. We receive impulses in our brain from the mind & emotions, which might be thought of as a terrestrial radio tower, as well as from spiritual states of awareness & being, which are more like radio satellites (Sirius, XM, etc.) orbiting the planet. Much regarding the precise mechanism or method of these transmissions is known, for instance, the importance of the pineal gland and the pituitary body, as well as the existence of the chakras as energy vortices and built-in gateways from one state of being (or energy level) to another.

The Hindus referred to the astral plane as kamaloka (the place of desires), and our body in that world is called the kamarupa (or, `form of desire'). Sometimes the term kama-manas is used, in describing the close integration of mind and emotions, but this is still roughly equivalent to the Egyptian ba. A reincarnating individuality was most certainly taught, and that has been called many things - jivatma (`life-soul,' or unit of life), Karanopadhi or Karana-Sarira (`vehicle/body of causes'), or Atma-Buddhi-Manas (Spiritual Will, Spiritual Wisdom, Spiritual Intelligence). In Buddhism, this higher triad, the Soul, was explained as Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya ... the Trikaya. Kaya, means `body,' thus, three bodies - since even our Spirit, or Soul, is said to reflect the Trinity/Trimurti/Spiritual Triad. All of these are equivalent to the Egyptian Akh.

Now again, what does all this prove? Nothing, in & of itself. But were these guys just bored, and figured it would be neat to come up with some wild & crazy explanation of some supposedly-otherworldly states of existence? I would submit that the ancients were scientists, every bit as much as the Keplers and Galileos, Hawkings and Einsteins of today. They were able to gaze outward, at the stars, as well as inward, into the depths of human consciousness ... yet they did not use the tools and instrumentation of modern empiricism to do it. But the objects of their study, in my findings, are no less real or observable than the stars themselves, or cells, atoms, biofeedback. Each study, and each type of observations tells us something. None, alone, is complete. And thus, testimony from many sources, including the eyewitness accounts of "the man in the street," seems worthy of our consideration.

The enigma of who and what reincarnates, if indeed, anything does ... continues to perplex and intrigue. I am wholly captivated, and feel that I will surely die without having solved the "ultimate mysteries," and because of that, I smile. But I do want to die, and to loose the cord (the "silver cord" of which the Bible speaks, which binds the Golden Bowl - the etheric body, to our flesh ... Ecclesiates 12:6) - when my time is here. The immortality that is destined, has nothing to do with our current (or any) physical body, imo ... and this is what St. Paul speaks of in I Corinthians 15:35-58, especially in these verses:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

my 2 cents ...

andrew

[China Cat Sunflower]

Thanks for the long and interesting post Andrew! I really appreciate you taking the time to write all that. I'm sorry that I don't have time right now to reciprocate, but this one thing really interests me:

What is important is to consider that intellect is not residentwithin the brain, let alone our personality, according to these systems.

This is something I've thought a lot about: Where do my thoughts come from? When I'm cruising along in a free-associational thought mode and things are just coming to me it seems that my thoughts are not at all local to my brain. I think the problem I run into the most when attempting to discuss metaphysical stuff is that there is most often a tendency to drag things from the metaphysical plane down into the physical and talk about them as if they were subject to the deductive logic and reasoning that works on the physical plane. But it's hard to find an appropriate language that doesn't automatically turn concepts into objects, if you know what I mean. I kinda picked up on this studying Kabbalah, because with that you have to stay within the appropriate "world" or nothing makes any sense. What works in the astral realm, for example, doesn't necessarily directly deduce to physical world, and vice versa.

How is your past life regression working out, btw? What have you discovered? I think I was a turd scraper in ancient Rome, or Cleopatra, I can't decide!

Chris

[taijasi]

China Cat,

For the reasons you mention, Zen Buddhism is particularly helpful. Kabbalah is way over my head, and I still have too much to learn about the Torah!

I wasn't sure if my mentioning past life regression might sound like I was doing it, but I meant to say, I'm reading about it. I've chatted briefly with someone who has actually done it (twice), but she didn't say much, and it isn't something she's going to continue. I, personally, would like to do it, but I dunno if it's something that fate will steer me toward.

My own memories of 7 recent lives all come to me "naturally" (a fitting word, I think, since I did not seek out any of them!). Some date back from when I was 3 years old (which helps especially as I decide whether or not they might be fabricated, imagined, or otherwise inaccurate). Others, have come to me through meditation, and in unusual states of mind (to say the least). But I remain comfortable that all are more or less accurate, at this point - even as I remain open to greater enlightenment.

One imagined lifetime, which might have served some purpose for me in the past, now seems almost certainly to have been fictional. I cannot explain its origin, but perhaps the faux-memories served a useful point in the past, as they were very humbling. In fact, the lifetime which seems in many ways of the most usefulness to me now, or as having the most relevance (other than the obvious present lifetime) ... involved my being in a harem, in Persia of ~2000 years ago. The memories are not very pleasant, although the earlier years of that lifetime (as a Zoroastrian), are different, and do seem pleasant. Fortunately, I do not have details, just general feelings, and one or two specific memories - and overall, everything serves to suggest that I have many things to work on this time around.

The various other lives, also serve ... and if they are accurate/correct, then the best & clearest indication is that I have tremendous spiritual responsibility in this lifetime - and admittedly, I have thus far (or at least recently), shrunk from the task. But I do believe that the various memories of & knowledge of these other lives, were shown to me for a reason. It was no accident, but rather, it is part of the plan of the Soul. It is simply up to me now, to choose how to move forward ...

Btw, personally, the language of the common ground doesn't really matter - just so long as we find one. I know so little about Kabbalah, for example, except to mention the nephesh. But I have seen many, many renditions or applications of the Tree of Life, and I am familiar with the idea of the Seven & Ten Sephiroth. I have had my share of out-of-body experiences and mystical experiences ... to be pretty darn sure - that the ancients were not just whistlin' Dixie. They had all had a glimpse, in varying degrees, of the Universal Reality, and were attempting to communicate that to the rest of us. It seems the most gifted of today's scientists, psychologists, and doctors have been able to recognize, and corroborate this. And gradually, we are rediscovering and confirming much of what the Ancients knew.

Namaskar,

andrew

[one of the few]

Originally Posted by sara[h]ng

I've heard that from a spiritual standpoint, time and space are human creations - that is, time does not exist in the spirit world. Hard concept for the human mind, but that simple fact does not make it impossible. If time does not exist in a spiritual realm,

Lots of points in there to debate, but I'm no expert in subject. Just a thought.

Sarah

I to see this point which is that time is not a constraint in spirit and I would suggest that the belief of reincarnation could have it's roots in touching upon the oneness of the spirit ? We have heard of divine visitation and even thou it's not a well know fact there seems to be a form of this upon thousands of visitors to Israel a year. Some going as far as claiming to be a past person from the bible. Are we to accept everybody's claim of being say Peter, at least 10% believe this.
I offer this in consideration of what we are taught from the bible which is reincarnation,( it pleased GOD to plant his seed in man) ( each a part of the body of CHRIST) so I think it's safe to purpose that in touching upon the spiritual oneness we come away from this with a sense of being someone else.
I add also in all the reports of returned from death I can't recall one that claimed any past life memory.
G.B.W.Y.