Reincarnation, rebirth and karma

[intrepidlover]

It seems to my dull mind that there is a logical flaw regarding karma and rebirth. If my individual personality does not survive death and reincarnate, but instead is absorbed by an impersonal pool of energy, what does it matter what karma I generate in this lifetime if I will never consciously reap the results of it?

As "I" will cease to exist as an individual when I die, "I" will never have to suffer the results of any bad karma that "I" have generated in this life time.

So I might as well live an ungodly, self-absorbed, hedonistic life and as long as I am not caught for breaking any civil laws, I will not pay for my "sins."

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by intrepidlover

...what does it matter what karma I generate in this lifetime if I will never consciously reap the results of it?

I see karma as inertia and direction. The karma that you've created in this life was a result of the inertia and direction set forth from your past lives. Personality doesn't pass from one life to the next because personality is intimately tied to both your physical body (brain, hormones) and environment. When the concepts of karma and rebirth are understood, then one consciously reaps the results of karma.

[intrepidlover]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

When the concepts of karma and rebirth are understood, then one consciously reaps the results of karma.

Not likely to happen in this lifetime because already I am 69 years of age.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by intrepidlover

Not likely to happen in this lifetime because already I am 69 years of age.

You've been reaping the results of karma for 69 years.

All I'm asking is that you become conscious of that.

That ain't so hard.

[Nick the Pilot]

CZ,

I agree. We have been consciously reaping the results of our karma during each and every one of our previous lifetimes.

[Anicca]

The Buddha's own teachings do not contain notions and views such as being reborn after death as a frog or a deva etc.

Karma means intentional action. The buddha taught birth not rebirth/reincarnation. The word he used is jati, which translates as birth


An understanding of the Buddhas teaching on rebirth and kamma would be as follows


In relation to kamma specifically we find this passage

"With his mind thus concentrated, purified, and bright, unblemished, free from defects, pliant, malleable, steady, and attained to imperturbability, he directs and inclines it to knowledge of the passing away and re-appearance of beings. He sees — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, and mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech, and mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified and surpassing the human — he sees beings passing away and re-appearing, and he discerns how they are inferior and superior, beautiful and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate in accordance with their kamma. This, too, is how striving is fruitful, how exertion is fruitful.

So if there is an intentional action to shout abuse at some one, this will lead to a corresponding state of mental anguish (or hell). The realms of Buddha's teaching are purely mental experiences, not actual places after death



In relation to rebirth we must take into account the Buddhas teaching on anatta (not-self). The buddha broke a human down into 5 parts

Form (body)
Feeling (not emotion but just like, dislike or netural)
perception
mental formations (thoughts etc)
Consciousness


The Buddha taught that these 5 things are impermanent (anicca), dukkha if there is attachment to them and Anatta (not-self)

The sense of self or "I am" arises due to clinging. So for example if there is clinging to the body then the sense "I am the body" is "born". This birth of "I am" arises and ceases many times a day whenever there is clinging, thus there are many births into different mental realms of experience

He seeing a form with the eye becomes greedy for a pleasant form, or averse to a disagreeable form. Abides with mindfulness of the body not established and with a limited mind. Not knowing the release of mind nor the release through wisdom as it really is, where thoughts of demerit cease completely (*11). He falls to the path of agreeing and disagreeing and feels whatever feeling, pleasant, unpleasant, or neither unpleasant nor pleasant. Delighted and pleased with those feelings he appropriates them. To him delighted, pleased and appropriating those feelings arises interest. That interest for feelings is the holding (* 12) To him holding, there is being, from being arises birth, from birth decay and death, grief, lament, unpleasantness, displeasure and distress, thus arises the complete mass of unpleasantness.

If I am unware of the four noble truths then there will be grasping and continuous births of "I". This leads to suffering since there is identification around that which is painful to hold to because of impermanence

[Anicca]

Also would like to add that the Buddha's own teachings dont contain rebirth/reincarnation. By this I mean he didnt teach that people will be frogs in their next life, as is commonly thought.


Some people in the Buddhas time did take this view and so he did pander to their beliefs. This is because it fosters a good sense of giving and, in the Buddhas teaching, virtue helps lead to mental well being (although its not enough on its own to end dukkha)


He states the reason for teaching "rebirth" or reincarnation here


MN 68

[quote]"So, Anuruddha, it is not for the purpose of scheming to deceive people or for the purpose of flattering people or for the purpose of gain, honour, and renown, or with the thought " let people know me to be thus", that when a disciple has died, the Tathagata declares his reappearance thus "so-and-so has reappeared in such-and-such a place" Rather, it is because there are faithful clansmen inspired and gladdened by what is lofty, who when they hear that, direct their minds to such a state, and that leads to their welfare and happiness for a long time"[quote]

lofty
Adjective
[loftier, loftiest]
1. of majestic or imposing height
2. morally admirable: lofty ideals
3. unpleasantly superior: a lofty contempt


It helps lead people to be moral, which helps them to progress to the Buddhas own teachings, the 4 noble truths (if they want to or can)



However the Buddhas own teaching does not contain such notions, as is taught in this Sutta


MN 117

"Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.

"And what is right view? Right view, I tell you, is of two sorts: There is right view with effluents [asava], siding with merit, resulting in the acquisitions [of becoming]; and there is noble right view, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.

"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view.

Now notice that the Buddha states that the view "there is no life after death is wrong view". This is because of the effect it can have upon a persons mental well being.


Right view is split into two. There is right view with "effluents". This means taints, that is a view that, while being good in that it promotes giving etc, leads to grasping and dukkha


The Buddhas own teachings are contained in the the second Right View

"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.

This is a view that does not contain notions of reincarnation and leads to the ending of dukkha

metta

[bhaktajan]

Thank you for the post.
Did Buddha not leave his own sutra?

The Buddha's own teachings do not contain notions and views such as being reborn after death

versus:

by means of the divine eye, . . . beings passing away and re-appearing, . . . he discerns . . . in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings . . . with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared

Again:

The realms of Buddha's teaching are purely mental experiences

All physical experiences = stimuli affecting the senses = mental reception of the outside world.

To live & suffer in an un-favorable setting will condition the mind ---that is the same as a physical realm by any other name ---yet, IT'S ALWAYS TEMPORARY

[Anicca]

Thank you for the post.
Did Buddha not leave his own sutra?

Quote:
The Buddha's own teachings do not contain notions and views such as being reborn after death
versus:


Quote:
by means of the divine eye, . . . beings passing away and re-appearing, . . . he discerns . . . in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings . . . with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared

Buddha defined Kamma as intention so we can read the suttas as

by means of the divine eye, . . . beings passing away and re-appearing, . . . he discerns . . . in accordance with their intentiona action: 'These beings . . . with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared

If there is intentional action to steal then there is birth of identity as a robber. Kamma and result

[bhaktajan]

Kama in sanskrit is "Lust/Pleasure"

The inspiration behind sinful acts that ensnare the individual being into the cycle of "samsara" = mundane enjoyments that are beyond ones quota in life and thus obtained by extraneous means:

Bhagavad-gita 3.37 says

The Blessed Lord said: It is lust only, Arjuna, which is born of contact with the material modes of passion and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world.

PURPORT

When a living entity comes in contact with the material creation, his eternal love for the Absolute Dharma of Krsna consciousness is transformed into lust, in association with the mode of passion.

Or, in other words, the sense of love of God becomes transformed into lust, as milk in contact with sour tamarind is transformed into yogurt.

Then again, when lust is unsatisfied, it turns into wrath; wrath is transformed into illusion, and illusion continues the material existence.

Therefore, lust is the greatest enemy of the living entity, and it is lust only which induces the pure living entity to remain entangled in the material world. Wrath is the manifestation of the mode of ignorance; these modes exhibit themselves as wrath and other corollaries.

If, therefore, the modes of passion, instead of being degraded into the modes of ignorance, are elevated to the modes of goodness by the prescribed method of living and acting, then one can be saved from the degradation of wrath by spiritual attachment.


The Supreme Personality of Godhead expanded Himself into many for His ever-increasing spiritual bliss, and the living entities are parts and parcels of this spiritual bliss.

They also have partial independence, but by misuse of their independence, when the service attitude is transformed into the propensity for sense enjoyment, they come under the sway of lust.

This material creation is created by the Lord to give a facility to the conditioned souls to fulfill these lustful propensities, and when they are completely baffled by prolonged lustful activities, the living entities begin to inquire about their real position.

This inquiry is the beginning of the Vedanta-sutras, wherein it is said, athato brahma-jijnasa: one should inquire into the Supreme. And the Supreme is defined in Srimad-Bhagavatam as janmady asya yato 'nvayad itaratas ca, or, "The origin of everything is the Supreme Brahman." Therefore, the origin of lust is also in the Supreme.

If, therefore, lust is transformed into love for the Supreme, or transformed into Absolute Dharma of Krsna consciousness--or, in other words, desiring everything for Krsna--then both lust and wrath can be spiritualized.

Therefore, lust and wrath, when they are employed in the Absolute Dharma of Krsna consciousness, become our friends instead of our enemies.

Bhagavad Gita As It Is, 3: Karma-yoga, Text 37.

[Anicca]

I thought this was the Buddhist section not Hindu

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by intrepidlover

It seems to my dull mind that there is a logical flaw regarding karma and rebirth. If my individual personality does not survive death and reincarnate, but instead is absorbed by an impersonal pool of energy, what does it matter what karma I generate in this lifetime if I will never consciously reap the results of it?

As "I" will cease to exist as an individual when I die, "I" will never have to suffer the results of any bad karma that "I" have generated in this life time.

So I might as well live an ungodly, self-absorbed, hedonistic life and as long as I am not caught for breaking any civil laws, I will not pay for my "sins."

It seems to me that "karma" happens immediately (or better put), within one's life time, now, here. It also seems to me that the more humble one is about their accomplishments/behavior, the faster that "karma" seems to act.

Has anyone else noticed that? Or am I odd in my thinking?

[Nick the Pilot]

Intrepid,

You said,

"If my individual personality does not survive death and reincarnate…"

--> I believe that our individual personality does not survive death and does not reincarnate. But I believe that there is a form of consciousness that is higher than human consciousness, and this higher consciousness does survive and reincarnate.

"…is absorbed by an impersonal pool of energy…"

--> It is absorbed by an ‘impersonal pool of energy,’ but our basic individuality is still maintained even at such a time.

"…what does it matter what karma I generate in this lifetime if I will never consciously reap the results of it?"

--> I believe we do reap the results, because the higher-than-human consciousness retains a record of our karma. Karma never forgets.

"As "I" will cease to exist as an individual when I die…"

--> Although there are Buddhists who believe such a thing, such an idea does not fit into my personal belief system.

"…I might as well live an ungodly, self-absorbed, hedonistic life and as long as I am not caught for breaking any civil laws, I will not pay for my "sins.""

--> You will ‘pay for your sins.’ The higher-than-human consciousness retains a record of your 'sinful deeds.'
　

[Nick the Pilot]

Q,

You said,

"…It … seems to me that the more humble one is about their accomplishments/behavior, the faster that "karma" seems to act."

--> But there must also be karma that is recorded and burned off in subsequent rebirths.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Anicca

I thought this was the Buddhist section not Hindu

Welcome to the crazy world of interfaith.org

Every web forum has its particular levels of rule enforcement by the mods. In the past the different fora (?) here were quite strictly marshalled, perhaps to try to minimise grumpiness. These days, short of personal unpleasantries you can pretty much say what you want where you want. Personally I don't find that so helpful but at least I'm used to the established folk here and know "where they're coming from". (I would think it beneficial if we had short signatures to identify this but Brian - the owner - thinks otherwise). Newbies might get misled or confused though...So don't expect what you might think you might be expecting.

s.