Religion as an excuse for war?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The battle is over land that a particular people occupy, and another people want.

The battle from outside the land is a hatred for a particular people that other people want destroyed.

Palestinians want the Israelis pushed into the sea. Iranians want the Israelis obliterated. The president of Iran has declared as much (for example). The Egyptians tried, the Syrians tried, and I believe Jordan tried. All since 1948. They all failed....

Israel's goal is to survive as a people and keep the land they have (that is good incentive to fight like hell).

You are right, it has nothing to do with religion, when it comes down to brass tacks. It is one people's claim over anothers' claim over a piece of land, and it is outsider's intention to get rid of a particular people, for whatever reasons.

v/r

Q

I don't buy any of it. During the cold war the US and Russia were at odds...and we were told how terrible the communists and Ruskies were...we lived under nuclear threat...we berated Pravda for being a the party line newspaper...Thier gov't told them much the same thing...and in truth the Washington Post, NY Times, most major media spouted the gov't hate and fear line...

Now we know that it was all orchestrated from the tops of both sides...around the world, people want food on their table, a roof over their heads, and their babies to go to sleep without fear.

Tis our leaders...those that gain/have the drive, the arrogance to believe they are the only way our country will survive...that transposes as they gain power into the world domination need..or at least garnering more and more power and influence.

I've spoke with Iranians, Palestinians, Israilies, Saudis and on and on...not to say I haven't found a few radicals that follow the company line...not hard to find a racist or fanatical christian (I'm not putting either in either pot) in the US either. My way or the hiway is not dead in the lower echelon, their are those with illusions of grandeur....but over all...most people are loving, forgiving, caring, compassionate and could care less about eliminating those over the border, or taking the border or moving the border.... they would just like safety and comfort for themselves and their family...and the opportunity to assist others in this as well.

I got my schooling in this in the past 30 years hitchhiking coast to coast, border to border, meeting and being treated wonderfully by all walks of life...tens of thousands of miles on my thumb...people are wonderful....those in power get warped by the efforts it takes to gain that office.

imho

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

I don't buy any of it. During the cold war the US and Russia were at odds...and we were told how terrible the communists and Ruskies were...we lived under nuclear threat...we berated Pravda for being a the party line newspaper...Thier gov't told them much the same thing...and in truth the Washington Post, NY Times, most major media spouted the gov't hate and fear line...

Now we know that it was all orchestrated from the tops of both sides...around the world, people want food on their table, a roof over their heads, and their babies to go to sleep without fear.

Tis our leaders...those that gain/have the drive, the arrogance to believe they are the only way our country will survive...that transposes as they gain power into the world domination need..or at least garnering more and more power and influence.

I've spoke with Iranians, Palestinians, Israilies, Saudis and on and on...not to say I haven't found a few radicals that follow the company line...not hard to find a racist or fanatical christian (I'm not putting either in either pot) in the US either. My way or the hiway is not dead in the lower echelon, their are those with illusions of grandeur....but over all...most people are loving, forgiving, caring, compassionate and could care less about eliminating those over the border, or taking the border or moving the border.... they would just like safety and comfort for themselves and their family...and the opportunity to assist others in this as well.

I got my schooling in this in the past 30 years hitchhiking coast to coast, border to border, meeting and being treated wonderfully by all walks of life...tens of thousands of miles on my thumb...people are wonderful....those in power get warped by the efforts it takes to gain that office.

imho

I didn't make up Hamas' declaration to push Israelis into the sea. They published it themselves. They now control a great deal of the Palestinian government. Nor did I make up what the Iranian President said concerning the annhilation of Israel, He declared it several weeks ago publicly.

I didn't make up Egypt and Syria attempting to attack and take over Israel. That occured in 1948, 1967 and in 1972. The first was immediatley after Israel became a "soverign" nation again, And I believe The second one was called the Six days war and the other the Yom Kippur war.

These are historical facts, not opinions.

v/r

Q

[mahogan]

The Crusades and the Inquisition are ofen used as examples of early religious wars. What about the spread of European culture in general, which always seems to have included an element of 'religious conversion' - from the Spanish conquests onwards.

Going back earlier, would the Greco-Roman conquest of Egypt and the rise of Ptolemy count as a religious war - it did result in the end of Pharonic culture, evidenced in the rise of Coptic art.

The Roman wars against the Jews - was this a religious war or a war waged by the Romans against the people occupying Palestine, which happened to be Jewish?

Do religious wars predate monotheism?

Were the earlier wars primarily economic and geographic rather than theological?

On the last point, I quote Darius's and others (Middle Eastern and Ethiopian) conquest of Egypt and Egypts spread through other regions, where there was no requirement for the conversion of groups to new forms of worship.

One could also cite the spread of the Mongol empire, which required surrender more than specific changes in worship.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mahogan

The Crusades and the Inquisition are ofen used as examples of early religious wars. What about the spread of European culture in general, which always seems to have included an element of 'religious conversion' - from the Spanish conquests onwards.

Going back earlier, would the Greco-Roman conquest of Egypt and the rise of Ptolemy count as a religious war - it did result in the end of Pharonic culture, evidenced in the rise of Coptic art.

The Roman wars against the Jews - was this a religious war or a war waged by the Romans against the people occupying Palestine, which happened to be Jewish?

Do religious wars predate monotheism?

Were the earlier wars primarily economic and geographic rather than theological?

On the last point, I quote Darius's and others (Middle Eastern and Ethiopian) conquest of Egypt and Egypts spread through other regions, where there was no requirement for the conversion of groups to new forms of worship.

One could also cite the spread of the Mongol empire, which required surrender more than specific changes in worship.

One could also site the push of the Moors...they spread all the way to Spain, and killed everything in sight.

just a thought

v/r

Q

[mahogan]

What the Moors (monotheists) did in Spain seems to support the idea that religous wars are linked to monotheism.

I would not argue that the Moors killed everything in sight, this is not supported by research, architecture or history. There are many instances of multicultural existence in southern Spain, exemplified in the Alhambra of Granda and the architecture of Cordoba and Seville. None of which helps to identify the link between religion and warfare. The history of Spain during the wars between Africans, Europeans and Arabs is very complicated and becomes political; I would argue that it was the politics that led to the massacres (this was not the first time that 'the enemy' was accused of eating babies and raping women wholesale,nor was it the last), rather than the religious aspects.

Occupations by any invader were often bloody, with citadels given the option of surrendering or being annhialated.

Still - religious wars and their link to monotheism, as opposed to economic wars of expansion?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mahogan

What the Moors (monotheists) did in Spain seems to support the idea that religous wars are linked to monotheism.

I would not argue that the Moors killed everything in sight, this is not supported by research, architecture or history. There are many instances of multicultural existence in southern Spain, exemplified in the Alhambra of Granda and the architecture of Cordoba and Seville. None of which helps to identify the link between religion and warfare. The history of Spain during the wars between Africans, Europeans and Arabs is very complicated and becomes political; I would argue that it was the politics that led to the massacres (this was not the first time that 'the enemy' was accused of eating babies and raping women wholesale,nor was it the last), rather than the religious aspects.

Occupations by any invader were often bloody, with citadels given the option of surrendering or being annhialated.

Still - religious wars and their link to monotheism, as opposed to economic wars of expansion?

Well, once again it is pointed out wars were anything but religious. The only thing it seems that was religious about any of the wars was the name applied to them. (personally, I find it wonderful to be found wrong about Moors).

v/r

Q

[I, Brian]

So far as I understand it, it was the Christian re-conquest of Spain that was the bloodier war.

[mee]

Lasting peace can never be established while people are learning to kill. but no worries , wars will soon cease
He (Jehovah)is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. psalm 46;9

(Isaiah 11:9) They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.

(Micah 4:3) And he will certainly render judgment among many peoples, and set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. They will not lift up sword, nation against nation, neither will they learn war anymore

[I, Brian]

Taking a long time to do it, Mee - you're quoting from passages more than 2000 years old.

[mee]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Taking a long time to do it, Mee - you're quoting from passages more than 2000 years old.

True , and Gods word always comes true
The words found at Isaiah 2:4 are actually part of a marvelous prophecy, a prophecy about true peace—and it is undergoing fulfillment right in our own time. Before proclaiming the thrilling prospects of no more wars and weapons of war, the prophecy says: "It must occur IN THE FINAL PART OF THE DAYSthat the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: ‘Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; AND HE WILL INSTRUCT US ABOUT HIS WAYS ,and we will walk in his paths.’ For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem."—Isaiah 2:2, 3 So it is happening

[mee]

Millions of honest people are recognizing that the world’s religions are ‘rotten trees’ that have produced "bad fruit," in particular, by promoting bloody wars. In the Bible the world empire of false religion is described as a spiritual harlot called "Babylon the Great." The Bible says that "in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth."—Revelation 17:3-6; 18:24.
People who are disgusted with all the killing that has gone on in the name of God may wonder if there are Christians who actually live in harmony with this Bible prophecy: "They will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4) Do you know a truly God-fearing people who have renounced war? i know i do and it is Jehovahs witness, yes there are individuals in the world who renouce war, who are not Jehovahs witness, but as a world wide group Jehovahs witness are loving their neighbours by not learning war any more.
And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.Isaiah 2;4 many who once learned war no longer do , and the reason why is because they are taught by Jehovah.

[wag]

well people havent anything for what they must have to fight other than religion . religion is the only thing on which every nation is still fundamentalist and do care about the very religion. apart from religion there is no other excuse due to global village theory and wTO . only n only thing left is religion which can be a reason for war and the leaders used it wrongly.

[Terrence]

Religion isnt to be blamed for this, but man is. Most religion in and of themselves are peaceful religions, but man, at his core, with all his anger and hate and covertness and jealousies, use religion as an excuse to forward their evil motives. Again, most religions are peaceful and if the followers of those religions would practice it as it is, there would be no religous wars; except of course, not counting the few religions that arent peaceful at its core.

[fadfad]

I didn't read all the messages, but would like to go back to the initial question. War can be looked at as a conflict that leads two groups to the notion of extermination which we all agree is proper to life concept itself. And war can be looked at as a machine of extermination, which very sadly today has become an industry far beyond any goverment, society or religion.And war can be looked at economically as an engine for reform.It is during war that people look for peace.and they finally find it. Wars seem to be manifestations of the dark side. The dark side of men that all religions fight but unfortunately hold in them the seed of wars that is the injustices that all three religions accumulated throughout. It is only when (a mon avis) men of eligion sit together and solve or accept the disparities and shake hands like grown up....

[fadfad]

... Religion as an excuse for war... Would be, I say, irrelevant?Is there any war that wasn't fondamentally religious?