Rescuing the Bible - Page 3

didymus · 02-28-2005, 10:06 PM

How to rescue the Bible, well Basstian here are a couple of ways. I want to start by saying I have attended many many Bible studies and my suggestions come as a result of those experiences.

1. Let the Bible speak to your heart and spirit directly

2. Have an open discussion about the various interpretations found within. I did say an open discussion.

3. Allow a parable to be a parable, Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. If he wanted one and only one interpretation he would have come out and said it. The Bible speaks to people at all different levels of spirituality.

4. Never. I repeat Never let someone tell you that you have to interpret the Bible in one way only. That is a sin ( in my opinion)

Don't read the Bible literally every step of the way. It isn't all supposed to be taken literally. ie; Acts 12: 23. I was at a Bible study where noone would consider that these worms didn't come up from the ground and eat Herod. It was proven that Herod had some type of ancient Gonohrrea and literally had his genital eaten away by maggots. So you can see where they got it from. When I told people of this they said,"no, it says here that worms came out of the ground and ate him, that's God's word". They wouldn't budge on it.

Also, here is a question for you. If you gave a Bible to someone with no knowledge of scripture and allowed them to read the Bible, (let's stick to the new testament) what would their interpretation be and what would they think about it.? Would they walk away with doctrine and dogma? I doubt it.

lunamoth · 03-01-2005, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didymus

How to rescue the Bible, well Basstian here are a couple of ways. I want to start by saying I have attended many many Bible studies and my suggestions come as a result of those experiences.

1. Let the Bible speak to your heart and spirit directly

2. Have an open discussion about the various interpretations found within. I did say an open discussion.

3. Allow a parable to be a parable, Jesus spoke in parables for a reason. If he wanted one and only one interpretation he would have come out and said it. The Bible speaks to people at all different levels of spirituality.

4. Never. I repeat Never let someone tell you that you have to interpret the Bible in one way only. That is a sin ( in my opinion)

Don't read the Bible literally every step of the way. It isn't all supposed to be taken literally. ie; Acts 12: 23. I was at a Bible study where noone would consider that these worms didn't come up from the ground and eat Herod. It was proven that Herod had some type of ancient Gonohrrea and literally had his genital eaten away by maggots. So you can see where they got it from. When I told people of this they said,"no, it says here that worms came out of the ground and ate him, that's God's word". They wouldn't budge on it.

Also, here is a question for you. If you gave a Bible to someone with no knowledge of scripture and allowed them to read the Bible, (let's stick to the new testament) what would their interpretation be and what would they think about it.? Would they walk away with doctrine and dogma? I doubt it.

Dear didymus,

I agree with your suggestions 1 through 4 about not reading the Bible literally. A wholly and solely literal reading really kills the Bible for me, but I would not want to interfere with how others read it.

But here's another fly for the ointment. How can one really use or understand the Bible apart from the Body of Christ, a community of Christians? The earliest form of Christian worship was a community event, a shared meal. For sure if one read the Bible for the first time in complete isolation they would have a very different understanding of it, and I would say a very imcomplete understanding. We should for certain read, study, pray the Bible on our own, but to fully live it we need community. As you say, the Bible came from men, inspired by God, but these men were themselves a community, the early Church. Tradition is not evil.

While isolated, individualistic believers seems to be a trend today, I wonder if this has ever been a pattern in the past.

peace,
lunamoth

Bandit · 03-01-2005, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Don't read the Bible literally every step of the way. It isn't all supposed to be taken literally. ie; Acts 12: 23. I was at a Bible study where noone would consider that these worms didn't come up from the ground and eat Herod. It was proven that Herod had some type of ancient Gonohrrea and literally had his genital eaten away by maggots. So you can see where they got it from. When I told people of this they said,"no, it says here that worms came out of the ground and ate him, that's God's word". They wouldn't budge on it.

yes I do agree with things like this. it is not all literal in everything but we have others who go the other extreme who want to make it all a fairty tale, so when we can walk the middle of the line in sincerity of heart, that is when I feel God speaks to us through the BIble.
I certainly do not fall in line with the magority of organized religion, but that is just me.

I have to agree with Lunamoth also. At the same time how can we honestly expect the early church to understand the things we do today? The whole public did not have bibles while it was being translated... it is impossible for them to have understood it all. Also, when the translations came out in English, that is when the real reform started to take place.
The Apostles did not have this NT (they were the NT) we have today and I dont think they had complete access to the OT scrolls either. As we all know, we did not even get in English until 500 years ago. WE ARE THE New Testament of Jesus.
I want to end with this, There is no better time than now, than to read and try to understand what God wants us to know than today and I believe the whole entire effort was in His plan for His people today to keep us faithful to the end. We are still in the same age of grace that the early 120 experienced on the day of Pentecost when God filled the upper room and placed His spirit in man and they were endewed with power. That has not changed if we accept it and seek it.
It is truly a masterpiece that has stood faithful through all generations. Only one could do this for so much time to lapse, and that one is God Himself

Praise the Lord.

Basstian · 03-01-2005, 07:55 AM

There is a big difference between iterpretation and the rescue that this spong guy is talking about.

Rightly dividing the word of truth.

2Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16: But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

There is a right way and a wrong way

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

A bible study that helps us rightly divide the Word is always good.
A study that pulls us into subjects outside the law and the testimony will lead us to confusion or worse.

This guy does not want to rescue the Bible but rather re-write it leaving out ideas that are not Politically correct. Rather than call for repentance and righteous living.

I fall way short of where I know in my heart God would have me be
the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It would be way easier for me to allow things the bible points out as sin and thus not ever feel any conviction.
If I did this than truely I would have no use for Jesus in my faith. I would simply call what I do righteous and would have no need for repentance or forgiveness.
The law was written in stone the new covenant wrote that same law on our hearts it is eternal. I cannot change or alter what God has spoken nor will He.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

and here
psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

Matt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
I see all the time people using the Bible and Hiding there own selfish motives behind the name of Jesus. It is sad really to see good people depart from the truth in that way. But sadder still to watch as they lead weaker christians or (Babe's in Christ) off course.

My Bible still holds many truths I have yet to discover. It also holds truths that I need help from others to see. Not every doctrine I have ever felt was absolute truth do I now see in the same light. As I grow and learn I see things in different ways. But there are some very simple basic beliefs that will never change.
Fundamentals you might call them.

Sacredstar · 03-01-2005, 01:15 PM

Dear Lunamoth

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The earliest form of Christian worship was a community event, a shared meal. We should for certain read, study, pray the Bible on our own, but to fully live it we need community. While isolated, individualistic believers seems to be a trend today, I wonder if this has ever been a pattern in the past. lunamoth

Yes this is a very important point about community and very important to people in ancient times, it is certainly something in modern times as long been forgot, the importance of community and sharing hence why people lived in communities like the essenes. This is an important part of Christ's teachings.

Epiphanes summed it up well.

On Righteousness

Where does Justice lie?

In a community of equalties.

A common sky stretches above our heads and covers the entire earth with its immensity, the smae night reveals its stars to all without discrimination, the same sun, father of night and begetter of day, shines in the sky for all men equally. It is common to all, rich men and beggars, kings and subjects, wise men and fools, free men and slaves.

GOD made it it pour out its light for all the beings on this earth in order that it would be of common benefit to all: who would dare to appropriate the light so the sun to himself alone?.....

And everything exists, everything lives, is subject to this law of justice and equality....As for the laws of this world, it is they and they alone which have taught us to act against the law. Individual laws fragment and destroy communion with divine law.

The prophet said: "I had not known sin, but by the law", and how we interpret this meaning, if it be not the words of "mine" and "thine" have entered into this world throught the laws, and that this made an end to all community?

Nevertheless, that which GOD created, he created for all to hold in common possession: vines, grains, and all the fruits of the earth. Has the vine ever been to chase away a thief? or thievish passerby? But when man forgot that community means equality, and deformed it by its laws, on that day, the theif was born.

"While isolated, individualistic believers seems to be a trend today, I wonder if this has ever been a pattern in the past."

I would say yes, GOD greatest wish is to engage and be one with his people in sacred holy communion, the union of lover and the beloved. So yes this is GOD's will and all is going to divine plan.

A personal relationship with GOD that nothing can divide.

It is this experience of the sacred union with the divine that one can then share with the community in joy, love, happiness and peace.

Love beyond measure

Kimxxx

Sacredstar · 03-01-2005, 02:22 PM

I was doing a search on Jesus and community and came across this sermon. The quote from Keir Hardie is so true.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/2829.htm

Virtual_Cliff · 03-01-2005, 02:24 PM

What a pity I have only just found this thread. Thank you Sacredstar for bringing this passage to my attention. It is music to my ears, and very beautiful music. It is what I have been trying to formulate in my head for a long time. It is sunshine on a cloudy day.

Many thanks, VC

Sacredstar · 03-01-2005, 02:41 PM

Dear VC

And this a great link on the history of community.

http://www.jesus.org.uk/nccc/history_index.shtml

So it is we WILL create ecological, sustainable, GOD loving eco-village communites for our children and their children, so that our children do not witness war and devastation again.

When we love the earth, the earth loves us right back and when we love GOD's natural creations GOD loves us evenmore.

Here's too creating the Kingdom of Love and paradise on earth once more.

May peace be with the world

Kim xx

lunamoth · 03-01-2005, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

I was doing a search on Jesus and community and came across this sermon. The quote from Keir Hardie is so true.

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/2829.htm

Thank you for the link, SS. I also found it refreshing.

Reminds me too that Spong is far from the first person to perform radical midrash on the Bible. Thomas Jefferson and Elizabeth Cady Stanton jump to my mind.

http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/

http://www.undelete.org/library/library0041.html

In my opinion Spong throws the baby out with the bathwater. However, I think I undertand his message and one often needs to swing very side of the mark when pushing for radical change.

lunamoth

Sacredstar · 03-01-2005, 04:34 PM

Dear Lunamoth

Yes Spong is blessed in his relationship and understanding of GOD and so it is that this should encourage others to further develop and deepen their direct relationship with GOD too.

Then there is no division only acceptance of the oneness with GOD and then with each other in GOD's name.

One planet, one people, one heart, the unity of Christ Consciousness.

Love beyond measure

Kim xx

didymus · 03-01-2005, 06:40 PM

Lunamoth, your point is well taken. I believe it is good to pray with others as well and it strengthens us. I could be wrong but the first community of believers did not have written texts to go on so we can't say that they adhered to any dogma which was my point in Bible interpretation. They probably prayed together in the spirit and shared their experience with each other.

Virtual_Cliff · 03-02-2005, 12:57 AM

I was just looking back over thae posts on this thread and was saddened by the animosity this article seems to have raised. It reminds me of when I was sixteen and the correct meaning of the apostles creed was explained to me. I had been making a few elementary mistakes because of the old-fashioned language. I remember how miffed I was.

We should bear in mind that Spong, far from attacking the Bible, is actually attacking slip-shod and archaic bible scholarship. Isn't that something we should all support, even if the results are uncomfortable? We may not necessarily agree with his conclusions, but that is no excuse to give way to gratuitous slander. Is this good Christian witness?

Also, trotting out the usual false prophet quotations gets us nowhere. The false prophets might be the ones we agree with. We should not take our prejudice as a guide.

The reason that first-century writers can be misleading has its roots in the philosophy of (I think) Kierkegaard. He writes that even if speech between humans and animals were possible, we would still not undersatnd, say, lions because the world of the lion is so very different from our own that we should have too few shared concepts to communicate. Between the first century and now, there are few shared concepts, and those we do appear to share may have changed beyond recognition. Spong is undertaking the seriously difficult task of trying to get into the mind of the writers in order to better understand their writings. Perhaps those who disagree with his conclusions might at least meet him on the same level. -VC

Sacredstar · 03-02-2005, 01:17 AM

Dear Marsh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsh

By the way: When the anti-Christ comes, expect an anti-Bible to accompany him as well.

Well a Muslim once said to me that once the truth is known the world might be shocked and I say to you that this could be the case. Remember last time Jesus came he divorced himself from the Torah, it would not surprise me at all if when he comes again he does the same with the Bible.

Why else should he come if not to teach us new things?

An open mind is an open heart.

Love beyond measure

Kim xxx

Bandit · 03-02-2005, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Remember last time Jesus came he divorced himself from the Torah, it would not surprise me at all if when he comes again he does the same with the Bible.

please show me where Jesus divorced himself from the bible.

once again we must rescue the bible...pull the sticky bubble gum out from the pages and try not to rip them to badly. put the gum on your nose and go sit in the corner.

and to Marsh, YES... when the anti christ is fully revealed the bibles will start to go bye-bye, just like Hitler tried and the head chopping will begin again. Thank God I wont be here for that mess.

We should be getting our souls rescued. The bible will take care of itself.
Lord have mercy on us.

Basstian · 03-02-2005, 09:00 AM

Quote:

An open mind is an open heart

Prov 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him
Prov 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Prov 14:14 The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: