Respectful question about Jesus (pbuh)

Muslimwoman · 08-20-2007, 03:52 AM

Hello everyone, may I ask a question about Jesus (pbuh) from a Christian view.

I was watching a tv programme called the Islamic Jesus, it was looking at the story of Jesus (pbuh) in the Quran and the similarities and differences with the Bible story.

Now forgive me because, as those of you that speak to me regularly know, I have trouble understanding whether Christians see Jesus (pbuh) as G-d Himself or ..... well I really don't know, so shall not try to guess.

The programme asked a question that made me stop and think, it was "if Jesus (pbuh) was G-d then who was he praying to?"

I would be interested in the Christian answer to this question, as I would love to understand what you believe the relationship between Jesus (pbuh) and G-d was/is. Forgive me if I don't get it quickly as I have struggled with this question all my life.

lunamoth · 08-20-2007, 04:31 AM

Jesus the Son prayed to God the Father. Muslimwoman, I know you asked this question in all respect but the answer is related to the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit), which is Mystery, and I think from an Islamic POV you will not be satisfied by the Christian answers.

I'm sure others can give you a much more eloquent answer than I can, but I doubt any can explain the Trinity fully. God is Love, and Love is shared. Love flows among the Persons of the Trinity.

peace,
luna

BlaznFattyz · 08-20-2007, 05:12 AM

when Jesus was born, it was by spirit of god, and the word of god that was with god as god became flesh and dwelt among us, and the spirit of god dwelt fully within in him and he is the radiance of god's glory, this is Jesus Christ the son of god. now Jesus was born subject to the law, his humbled state was that of a man, and he was also jewish. because he loved god he did everything a jewish man was supposed to do. part of that includes praying and being subject to the father that sent him. because Jesus was born as a man on earth, he prayed to god the father in heaven from which he came. Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man so that He could do what He had to do.

And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all. For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings. He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

mee · 08-20-2007, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hello everyone, may I ask a question about Jesus (pbuh) from a Christian view.

I was watching a tv programme called the Islamic Jesus, it was looking at the story of Jesus (pbuh) in the Quran and the similarities and differences with the Bible story.

Now forgive me because, as those of you that speak to me regularly know, I have trouble understanding whether Christians see Jesus (pbuh) as G-d Himself or ..... well I really don't know, so shall not try to guess.

The programme asked a question that made me stop and think, it was "if Jesus (pbuh) was G-d then who was he praying to?"

I would be interested in the Christian answer to this question, as I would love to understand what you believe the relationship between Jesus (pbuh) and G-d was/is. Forgive me if I don't get it quickly as I have struggled with this question all my life.

As a christian ,and as one of Jehovahs witnesses the answer is from the bible , and the bible teaches us that Jesus was praying to his Father Jehovah God who is the most high.PSALM 83;18the bible is very clear indeed that Jesus is not God ,but Jesus is Gods son .The manmade trinity teaching has misled many people down through the centuries ,but if we stick to the bible it is very clear that Jesus is not God.

wil · 08-20-2007, 01:44 PM

Now that you have a few Christian answers...might as well get another and know that Christianity is fragmented in this regard. While the majority of mainstream Christianity includes the Trinity...not all does as Mee stated.

I don't see a clear answer to your question...ie the need for the Father/Son/Holy Ghost trinity to communicate with each other via words.

In my frame of reference which includes Jesus referring to us all as children of G!d and as his brothers and sisters, and indicating that everything he did we can do and more.... We are all one...and when we are praying to the Father, as he did, we are praying to our higher self, the non material aspect of ourself. We are all expressions (creations) of G!d manifesting in this plane as humans, trees, animals, insects, rocks, waves....in His image..

Not the conventional Christian view...but I'm not alone either.

So in my understanding when I pray to G!d, I'm turning on my favorite modem, Jesus, and accessing all that is....gets me from the material, body, bread consciousness, to my spiritual, blood, wine consciousness...

Thomas · 08-20-2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hello everyone, may I ask a question about Jesus (pbuh) from a Christian view.

Yes, of course ... but as Lunamoth says, the answer you will receive will; be from a Christian point of view, and if you receive it from an Islamic point of view, then I doubt it will suffice to answer your question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I was watching a tv programme called the Islamic Jesus, it was looking at the story of Jesus (pbuh) in the Quran and the similarities and differences with the Bible story.

Yes ... I saw saw some of it, too ... oh dear, oh dear ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

The programme asked a question that made me stop and think, it was "if Jesus (pbuh) was G-d then who was he praying to?"

This question goes right to the heart of the Mystery of Christ.

The best way to answer it is to begin with the 'definition' or understanding of the nature of Jesus as agreed at the Council of Chalcedon, in 451:

"Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; "like us in all things but sin." He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.

We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division, or separation. The distinction between natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis."

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The key then is in understanding that Jesus Christ is "truly God, and truly man", and this alone is perhaps the one thing that decides whether a person can actually call themselves a Christian in any meaningful sense, or not.

This definition is accepted by the Catholic and all the Orthodox Patriarchates, as well as the Anglican and Lutheran communions.

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Dionysius the Areopagite said "Trinity beyond being" which was a profound statement, and amplifies the idea that God as Trinity transcends any mode of being man can comprehend, and as such is not therefore bound by it ... God can manifest Himself in or through any mode of being He so chooses without necessarily substantially changing the being of the thing.

In the Kosmos, in nature, in the saints, sages and prophets God manifests through, He is still other than ... in the Son God is manifest in.

Quite how He is both God and man is integral to the Mystery, so there is no 'solution' to the question accessible to reason or logic, rather it is a question of faith... once it is accepted in faith, then it can be reasoned logically, as the development of Christian theology clearly indicates.

The question highlighted just one of a number of points which we rarely bother to ask ourselves ... for instance, when God became incarnate, he was by no means absent from heaven — thus the Son is with the Father in all eternity, and there was never a time when he was not, but when He became incarnate in man, that did not mean He was absent from heaven ... the Trinity was not reduced to a Duality, with one member absent on foreign service ...

... Nor, therefore, was the Son praying to Himself, nor does any sign of humanity in the Son signify contingency in God; nor any sign of the Absolute Deity of the Son signify something anything 'superhuman' in His humanity ... rather His deity and his humanity each retains all that is true to each — thus He is truly God, and truly human — and exhibts one or other of His natures through His person, according to the necessity of the Divine Economy — God's plan of salvation.

Two most common and pernicious errors that continually recur are:
1 - That God was in Jesus as he is in all of us, just moreso (or perhaps more consciously so) — so there is nothing particularly different about Jesus than you or me.
Thus there is no real distinction between God, Jesus Christ and man, just a matter of degree.

2 - That there is a distinction between 'Jesus' and 'Christ' — the former being physical, contingent, etc., that latter being spiritual, absolute, etc ... and that the Christ as some quasi-divine principle descended upon, subsumed, occupied or inhabited the human person in some way ...
Thus there is a very real and absolute distinction between man and God, and that Jesus Christ is some order of nexus between the two.

Both of these were prevalent in the early Christological disputes — St John's Gospel refutes the latter specifically — but both crop up continually, and moreso as philosophy, theology and metaphysics becomes 'occluded' from the modern mind ... René Guénon went on about this in great depth and detail.

... I've got a feeling this one might run and run ...

Thomas

Thomas · 08-20-2007, 05:09 PM

Hi Luna —

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

God is Love, and Love is shared. Love flows among the Persons of the Trinity.

Yes indeed, and if I many amplify on a theme I think we both share deeply (and because I can't resist talking about it) ...

Love is not ancilliary to the Trinity, there is not The Trinity and Love ... there is just Trinity, which is Love, and Love, which is Trinity.

St John says, "God is love." (1 John 4:8), and as St Augustine put it, the Lover, the Love, and the Beloved.

To get technical - what distinguishes the Trinity, what is particular to each Person, is relation, which is extraneous to their substance and nature (as our own substance and nature is not determined by our relations ... I am man, and father, but there was a time when I was not father, but I am not different in essence or substance, now that I am).

What is common to the Persons, what is the same, is Deity — they share one essence, one nature, but that is not to say each is 33.333% Divine, and together they make One God ... but rather each is God, wholly and absolutely...

... which is why the Son is God (in substance and nature), and the Father is God (in substance and nature) and thus "I and my Father are one" (in substance and nature) but "my father is greater than I" (in relation).

Thomas

Muslimwoman · 08-20-2007, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Muslimwoman, I know you asked this question in all respect but the answer is related to the Trinity (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit), which is Mystery, and I think from an Islamic POV you will not be satisfied by the Christian answers.

Thank you to everyone for your answers and patience with me. I am really not looking for an Islamic POV (I have Islamic points of view coming out of my ears

), I accept that we have different beliefs and am simply interested to understand yours. As you can imagine I am constantly asked why I converted to Islam and part of the answer is my inability to understand the relationship between Jesus (pbuh) and G-d and I think part of interfaith dialogue should be an understanding, even without acceptance, of each others beliefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

now Jesus was born subject to the law, his humbled state was that of a man, and he was also jewish. because he loved god he did everything a jewish man was supposed to do. part of that includes praying and being subject to the father that sent him.

Ah, thank you Balzn, now that is something I can mentally grasp. So for you Jesus (pbuh) had two different roles, that of man on earth and that of Divinity? Why do you think the Divinity came to earth as man, could this message not come through a Prophet, as with the Prophets before his time on earth?

Which Prophets do Christians believe in as authentic Prophets, inspred by G-d?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

The manmade trinity teaching has misled many people down through the centuries ,but if we stick to the bible it is very clear that Jesus is not God.

Mee, may I ask what JW's believe Jesus (pbuh) was, if not G-d? You know the Bible so well Mee, please can you tell me where to look for verses where Jesus (pbuh) states 'what' he is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

I don't see a clear answer to your question...ie the need for the Father/Son/Holy Ghost trinity to communicate with each other via words.

This is why I found the question interesting Wil, we know G-d communicated with Jesus (pbuh) so if he was part of G-d himself why would he pray to himself?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

So in my understanding when I pray to G!d, I'm turning on my favorite modem, Jesus, and accessing all that is....gets me from the material, body, bread consciousness, to my spiritual, blood, wine consciousness...

Oh I love that idea Wil, Jesus (pbuh) as an internet connection to G-d.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

The key then is in understanding that Jesus Christ is "truly God, and truly man", and this alone is perhaps the one thing that decides whether a person can actually call themselves a Christian in any meaningful sense, or not.

I believe the Bible tells that Jesus (pbuh) was aware of being the Son of G-d and also being man. What I don't understand is why the man part would pray to what would effectively be himself (being the divine part). Or are the divine and human aspects of Jesus (pbuh) praying to the higher entity of the Father?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

God can manifest Himself in or through any mode of being He so chooses without necessarily substantially changing the being of the thing.

Perhaps this goes to the heart of my failure to understand this issue Thomas. G-d can certainly work through or in anything He chooses but that does not make that thing or person in itself/themself divine, they are simply a tool, a vessel for the Spirit to work in or through.

Perhaps we could start with the Trinity, is there anything I could read that would explain to me the role of the 3 aspects of the Trinity? Perhaps if I could understand that then the rest would be easier to grasp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

... I've got a feeling this one might run and run ...

Well if I find the answer I shall let you know

Salaam
Sally

JosephM · 08-21-2007, 12:55 AM

Hi Muslimwoman,

I don't think you will find a consesus on the answer to your question. Some believe Jesus was God in the flesh, Some believe Jesus was the only Son of God, Some believe Jesus is our elder brother and one of many Sons, Some believe Jesus was the same as you and me and became enlightened and manifested divinity in as much as it can be manifested in the flesh. Most all believe he was the messiah that was to come. Christians in some of the groups I mentioned believe the ones who believe differently are deceived and really not Christians. So there you have it, answers limited by ones point of view which leaves it for you to make up your own mind.

Love and Peace,
JM

wil · 08-21-2007, 01:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JosephM

I don't think you will find a consesus on the answer to your question. Some believe Jesus was God in the flesh.... So there you have it, answers limited by ones point of view which leaves it for you to make up your own mind.

But her question is...If you believe Jesus and G!d to be one in the same, Jesus being G!D on earth....who did he pray to when he was praying to the father?

I think anyone who believes Jesus to be G!d can answer that and we should be able to tighten up the consensus somewhat.

Muslimwoman · 08-21-2007, 05:15 AM

You got it Wil but Joseph's answer was very enlightening. It seems that people are people no matter what faith they follow.

lunamoth · 08-21-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas

Hi Luna —

Yes indeed, and if I many amplify on a theme I think we both share deeply (and because I can't resist talking about it) ...

Love is not ancilliary to the Trinity, there is not The Trinity and Love ... there is just Trinity, which is Love, and Love, which is Trinity.

St John says, "God is love." (1 John 4:8), and as St Augustine put it, the Lover, the Love, and the Beloved.

To get technical - what distinguishes the Trinity, what is particular to each Person, is relation, which is extraneous to their substance and nature (as our own substance and nature is not determined by our relations ... I am man, and father, but there was a time when I was not father, but I am not different in essence or substance, now that I am).

What is common to the Persons, what is the same, is Deity — they share one essence, one nature, but that is not to say each is 33.333% Divine, and together they make One God ... but rather each is God, wholly and absolutely...

... which is why the Son is God (in substance and nature), and the Father is God (in substance and nature) and thus "I and my Father are one" (in substance and nature) but "my father is greater than I" (in relation).

Thomas

See, I knew someone could say it more eloquently than me...and I was pretty sure it was going to be Thomas. Nice post.

seattlegal · 08-21-2007, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Ah, thank you Balzn, now that is something I can mentally grasp. So for you Jesus (pbuh) had two different roles, that of man on earth and that of Divinity? Why do you think the Divinity came to earth as man, could this message not come through a Prophet, as with the Prophets before his time on earth?

The Word became Flesh and dwelt among us.--from John 1:14
God became one of us in order to save us. He "walked a mile in our shoes," so to speak.

Quote:

Oh I love that idea Wil, Jesus (pbuh) as an internet connection to G-d.

(regarding Jesus) Col 1:15 Who is the image (Greek: 'icon') of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Jesus is the icon we click on to access God.

Quote:

Which Prophets do Christians believe in as authentic Prophets, inspred by G-d?

Check out 1 John 4: this time start at verse 1

1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that[a] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Quote:

I believe the Bible tells that Jesus (pbuh) was aware of being the Son of G-d and also being man. What I don't understand is why the man part would pray to what would effectively be himself (being the divine part). Or are the divine and human aspects of Jesus (pbuh) praying to the higher entity of the Father?

It was for our benefit. The Word became Flesh so we could be saved. The Loving relationship is the important part, for those who don't know love, don't know God. Continuing on with 1 John 4, verses 7-11:

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

Thomas · 08-21-2007, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

See, I knew someone could say it more eloquently than me...

Don't agree ... I might say it more technically, with more 'tech support', but I think mine is an intellectual eloquence, yours a holistic one ...

Pax tecum,

Thomas

Thomas · 08-21-2007, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I believe the Bible tells that Jesus (pbuh) was aware of being the Son of G-d and also being man. What I don't understand is why the man part would pray to what would effectively be himself (being the divine part). Or are the divine and human aspects of Jesus (pbuh) praying to the higher entity of the Father?

St Athenasius said: "God became man, that man might become God."
De Incarnatione ('On the Incarnation') 54:3.

St John said: "We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us. What we have seen and heard we announce to you, so that you may have fellowship with us and our common fellowship be with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ" (1 John 1:2-3).

The Catholic Church believes:
"In His goodness and wisdom God chose to reveal Himself and to make known to us the hidden purpose of His will (see Eph. 1:9) by which through Christ, the Word made flesh, man might in the Holy Spirit have access to the Father and come to share in the divine nature (see Eph. 2:18; 2 Peter 1:4). Through this revelation, therefore, the invisible God (see Col. 1;15, 1 Tim. 1:17) out of the abundance of His love speaks to men as friends (see Ex. 33:11; John 15:14-15) and lives among them (see Bar. 3:38), so that He may invite and take them into fellowship with Himself. This plan of revelation is realized by deeds and words having in inner unity: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation manifest and confirm the teaching and realities signified by the words, while the words proclaim the deeds and clarify the mystery contained in them. By this revelation then, the deepest truth about God and the salvation of man shines out for our sake in Christ, who is both the mediator and the fullness of all revelation."
De Verbum paragraph 2

So God became incarnate to show man the way, and take the burden on Himself of all that stands in the way.

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When Christ withdraws from the world to pray, as the Son of God it is a revelation of the interior life of God, the dialogue within the Deity, which is Trinity ... in so doing, in His humanity, he calls all men to a life of prayer and contemplation, which is that unity with, and union in, the Divine, which was His by nature, and is ours by grace.

So Jesus does not pray to Himself as God to God, but as man to God ... a paradox to be sure, but is it? Do we not withdraw, sometimes, to mull things over to ourselves... ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Perhaps this goes to the heart of my failure to understand this issue Thomas. G-d can certainly work through or in anything He chooses but that does not make that thing or person in itself/themself divine, they are simply a tool, a vessel for the Spirit to work in or through.

But that does not preclude the possibility of Incarnation ... whatever man can think ... God can do more ... and everything that Jesus says points to His being more than a tool, or a vessel ... a prophet.

God is Good — so God says 'Not only will I show you the way, I will lead you myself.'

That Jesus is God is not immediately apparent ... it is a Revelation ... and that revelation takes place in the Holy Spirit, when we 'submit' ourselves to the Way (in the Spirit), the Truth (in the Son) and the Life (in the Father).

The God of the Abrahamic Tradition cannot be accessed or understood by any intellectual operation, or any force of will ...

... "into thy hands I commend my spirit" ... we have to give ourselves up, and that's the last thing we want to let go of. But man cannot ascend by his own power, he is drawn up ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Perhaps we could start with the Trinity, is there anything I could read that would explain to me the role of the 3 aspects of the Trinity? Perhaps if I could understand that then the rest would be easier to grasp.

I'm not sure ... the Trinity is 'understood' only in faith, and I think you're looking for an intellectual argument ... but the Son is the key ... the Holy Spirit is the 'shy one' and rarely reveals Himself ...

There are the psychological analogies of St Augustine:

Being (God is — the Father)
Knowing (God knows His 'isness' — the Son)
Willing (God affirms His 'isness' — the Holy Spirit)

His knowing is begotten of His being (one must be before one can know one is), but in God there is no difference between who He is and what He knows except in relation as knowing stands in relation to being ... and the best expression of this is Father and Son.

All the Father is, is in the Son,
And all the Son is, is from the Father,
(and as God is pefect, there is no limitation or diminution)
Hence Jesus can say "I and my father are one" and simultaneously say "The Father is greater than I" without contradiction.

The Spirit is the Willing of His being and His knowing
All the Father is, is in the Spirit,
And all the Spirit is, is from the Father,
(and as God is pefect, there is no limitation or diminution)
His knowledge is begotten,
His willing proceeds

And the Son wills all that the Father wills,
And the Son is equal to the Father,
So the Spirit proceeds from the Father, to the Son,
and from the Son, to the Father ...

I'm not sure any of this helps ... I think better to concentrate on the words of Lunamoth and Seattlegal ... especially the idea of 'icon' ...

Thomas