Revelation, are you ready? - Page 10

lunamoth · 04-24-2005, 03:13 AM

Wow, Dor, I needed to take notes to follow what you wrote and I still didn't get it all. Interesting to be sure. I think I need the condensed version. I'm a novice in reading Rev but I'll summarize my take on the evil players of the endtimes.

1. The dragon (Rev 12) who tries to devour the son of the woman in heaven. Dragon is satan, woman is creative force of God, the son is the Messiah sent to reign over the Kingdom of God. The "war" is in heaven and thus is a symbol of events to occur on earth. The woman could also represent the religion of Israel prior to Christ's birth.

2. beast from the sea (Rev 13)--certainly looks to me like it represents an earthly empire. Empowered by the dragon--empowered by those forces which resist God.

3. beast from the earth (Rev 13)--spoke like the dragon, miraculous signs, created image of the first beast, forced/coerced worship of the first beast--certainly looks like a false relgion, but I don't think it is actually something we identify as a religion except in jest, such as, he worships money. False idol worship based on materialism.

4. the harlot, Babylon. I think this is the idealized antithesis of the Bride, the New Jerusalem, the Holy Church, the Kingdom of God. Everything that the Kingdom of God is, Babylon is the opposite of. Dor called it Satan's economic-religious system. I don't think we would recognize it as a religion, although a corrupt and unjust economy and governance taking the place of the Kingdom of God certainly would be like a corrupt religion.

I don't know but I suspect that the details about each of these characters is based on details from history, rather than specific predictions about the future, but I certainly am not tied to this notion. Prophecy is challenging for me. Do I believe all this can happen? For sure, it already is. Look around --seems a lot like Isaiah's Judea to me.

the unstudied,
lunamoth

Bandit · 04-24-2005, 03:49 AM

That looks about right to me Luna. Then later we see the dragon goes after the woman through a flood of lies but the earth swallows up the lies instead, then the dragon goes to make war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God AND have the testimony of Jesus Christ. hmmm...

Faithful, yours on ch.4 looks good to me too.

Stand on the Word & keep yours eyes focused on Jesus. He will not fail us

.
The world cannot see it, but the church can.

Dor · 04-24-2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Wow, Dor, I needed to take notes to follow what you wrote and I still didn't get it all. Interesting to be sure. I think I need the condensed version.

Hehe that was actually a pretty condenseded version to see the rest of it and in a bit more detail look at http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/beast.htm.

Faithfulservant · 04-24-2005, 08:14 AM

I found for me personally to even attempt to read Revelation I had to read Isaiah Ezekiel Jeremiah and Zechariah oh yes and Daniel.. to go even further to read the other short books at the end of the OT.. You can see all the same symbolisms used.. Use cross references.. the works been done for you already. By no means am I even assuming that my ideas are correct but I have such a blast being in the Spirit and trying to decipher the meanings. I think my favorite thing about Revelation is the awesome display of the power of God... all to His glory and majesty. I love that Jesus returns as King and that all recognize Him for who He is and bow down before Him.

Its also interesting that once you study the bible for its prophecies.. and you start to read the rest of the bible you see prophecies everywhere.

Quahom1 · 04-24-2005, 03:17 PM

Sorry I didn't get back sooner Dor. I've been pre-occupied with a couple of other issues. I'll take a good read at what you found.

v/r

Q

mee · 05-14-2005, 09:12 PM

Rev. 18:4: "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."

Rev. 18:21: "A strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: ‘Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again...........wow looks like Babylon the great is going to be put out of the way and never be found again best to be no part of it according to these scriptures

false religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon). (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole .still the bible always warns us to get to a place of safety, people who take note of the warnings willnot suffer the same fate as babylon the greatbecause they have got well clear in a spirtual sense.so the question is ,are we tainted by babylonish teachings

Quahom1 · 05-14-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

Rev. 18:4: "Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues."

Rev. 18:21: "A strong angel lifted up a stone like a great millstone and hurled it into the sea, saying: ‘Thus with a swift pitch will Babylon the great city be hurled down, and she will never be found again...........wow looks like Babylon the great is going to be put out of the way and never be found again best to be no part of it according to these scriptures

false religion had its beginning at Babel (later known as Babylon). (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:4-9) In time, Babylonish religious beliefs and practices spread to many lands. So Babylon the Great became a fitting name for false religion as a whole .still the bible always warns us to get to a place of safety, people who take note of the warnings willnot suffer the same fate as babylon the greatbecause they have got well clear in a spirtual sense.so the question is ,are we tainted by babylonish teachings

Oh, I know I'm going to kick myself for this...what is Babylon to you?

v/r

Q

Faithfulservant · 05-15-2005, 03:54 AM

Christianity is Babylon to mee

mee · 05-20-2005, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Oh, I know I'm going to kick myself for this...what is Babylon to you?

v/r

Q

Babylon the great according to the bible ,is all of false religion. babylon was the seat of false religious beliefs and yes ,christendom which is quite different from true christianityis a major part of it.
Since Babylon the Great is the religious part of Satan’s seed, she has always made Jehovah’s "woman," "Jerusalem above," her main target. In the first century, the congregation of anointed Christians was clearly identified as the woman’s seed. (Genesis 3:15; Galatians 3:29; 4:26) Babylon the Great tried hard to conquer that chaste congregation by seducing it into committing religious fornication. The apostles Paul and Peter warned that many would succumb and a great apostasy would result. (Acts 20:29, 30; 2 Peter 2:1-3) Jesus’ messages to the seven congregations indicated that toward the end of John’s life, Babylon the Great was making some progress in her efforts to corrupt. (Revelation 2:6, 14, 15, 20-23) But Jesus had already shown how far she would be permitted to go

shepard · 05-20-2005, 08:36 PM

Hello everyone, it been awile since I wrote, anyway I would like to shed some light on this subject of Revalation.

First I would quote the Bible "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets." Amos 3:7

When we study Revalations we must also look at Daniel , for these are the two books of prophecy in the bible and they, when reference together give us a clear understanding of Gods word.

The book of Daniel concludes with the statement that "the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end, " but that "those who are wise will understand"(12:9-10); the implication being that, when the time of the end comes, those who are wise will understand the prophecies.

Now we must first understand these things about Bible prophecy:

Jesus Christ, Man's Redeemer

Symbolized as the Lamb, who was found worthy to take the sealed scroll because he redeemed men for God (Revelation 5:6-10), and who overcomes the beast and the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:14).

The mighty angel who comes down from Heaven robed in a cloud (Revelation 10:1).

The male child, to whom the woman gave birth, who will rule the nations with an iron scepter (Revelation 12:5).

Michael, the Commander of the armies of Heaven (Revelation 12:7).

The one who reaps the earth's harvest (Revelation 14:14-20).

The King of kings and Lord of lords, who rides the white horse and fights against the beast and its army (Revelation 19:11-21).

The End-time Apostles

The 144,000 Servants of God, sealed from the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:1-8).

Symbolized by the lampstands of the two witnesses (Revelation 11:4).

The firstfruits of those who are redeemed (Revelation 14:1-5).

Israel, or The Church, Heaven's Ambassadors to the World

Symbolized by the woman who gave birth to the male child (Revelation 12:1-2).

Satan, As He Has Appeared Through History, the Accuser

Symbolized by the great red dragon (Revelation 12:3-4).

Religio-Political System That Rises To Power In The Time of the End

Symbolized by the beast from the sea (Revelation 13:1-8), or the scarlet beast (Revelation 17:3), with seven heads and ten horns that wages war against the Lamb (Revelation 17:12-14; 19:19).

Satan, The Rebel Ruler in the time of the end, Masquerading as Jesus

The angel of the Abyss (Revelation 9:1-11).

The beast from the Abyss who kills the two witnesses (Revelation 11:7).

The beast from the earth, or the false prophet (Revelation 13:11-17).

The beast from the Abyss, who "once was, now is not, and will come" (Revelation 17:8-11).
The false prophet (Revelation 19:20).

The "Abomination That Causes Desolation," Spoken Of By Daniel

The image set up in honor of the beast (Revelation 13:14-17).

The great city that rules over the kings of the earth (Revelation 11:7-10, 17:18).

The prostitute (Revelation 17:1-6, 15-18).

Half an hour

Revelation 8:1. When the seventh seal of the Lamb's title deed is opened at the end of the millennium, there is an expectant silence (cf. Acts 21:40) in Heaven for about half an hour.

Five months

Revelation 9:5. This refers to the literal five-month period of time in the future during which locusts, representing an army of evil angels from the Abyss, have power to torment those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. This happens when the fifth of the seven trumpets sounds and is the first of three woes to befall the inhabitants of the earth.

Hour, day, month, and year

Revelation 9:15. This has been misunderstood to represent a span of time. Actually, it refers to the exact point in time at which the four angels bound at the river Euphrates are to be released.

42 months

Revelation 11:2. The amount of time allotted for the Gentiles to trample the holy city. This corresponds to the 42 months of Revelation 13:5 and is probably also the "times of the Gentiles" to which Jesus referred when he said, "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" (Luke 21:24). The 42 months are literal months that will probably end around the time the Lord comes.

1,260 days

Revelation 11:3. The time during which Jesus's two witnesses will prophesy. These are 1,260 literal days, corresponding to the "time, times, and half a time" of Daniel 12:7. This time period ends with the two witnesses being killed by the beast from the Abyss, which happens when the Spirit of truth is finally rejected by the wicked. The 1,260 days are future and will probably end a number of weeks before Jesus's second coming.

Three and one-half days

Revelation 11:9. The amount of time the prophets of God are without the power of the Spirit, once the Spirit of truth has left.

1,260 days

Revelation 12:6. The amount of time the woman was cared for in the wilderness and protected from the pursuit of the dragon. This is equated with the "time, times, and half a time" of Revelation 12:14, illustrating that, since three and one-half "times" total 1,260 days, one "time" is equal to 360 days. Daniel 7:25 also refers to this time period. It began in 538 and ended in 1798.

Time, times, and half a time

Revelation 12:14. See above, on the 1,260 days of Revelation 12:6.

42 months

Revelation 13:5. This is the amount of time allotted to the beast to exercise the authority given to him by the dragon. During this time, he will blaspheme God and persecute his saints. This is probably the same time period as the 42 months of Revelation 11:2, during which the Gentiles trample on the holy city. It appears that the beast's authority comes to an end when he is thrown into the lake of burning sulfur at the coming of the Lord (Revelation 19:19-20).

1,000 years

Revelation 20:2. The amount of time the dragon is imprisoned in the Abyss. During this time, the earth lies desolate, the wicked having been killed at the coming of the Lord (Revelation 19:21) and the saints having been taken up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

shepard · 05-20-2005, 08:54 PM

Revelation is "the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place." Jesus Christ is the lawful Ruler in the book of Daniel, and he is shown to be man's Redeemer in Revelation. Revelation is a message from our Commander—our Ruler and Redeemer Jesus Christ—to his church. Basically, it's the battle plan, telling us how he is going to work, what our role will be, how the world will respond, and how God will wrap everything up.

The book of Daniel is not one long prophecy but a number of separate prophecies or narrations about the future, separated by accounts of the present (e.g., the fiery furnace, the lions' den, Belshazzar's feast, etc.). The book of Revelation is also not one long prophecy, though it may seem so. Just as there are a number of prophecies in Daniel, so there are a number of prophecies in Revelation. The events of each prophecy are given in chronological order, just as they were in Daniel; and each prophecy has a beginning point and an ending point, just as in Daniel.

The Two Witnesses (Revelation 10:1 - 11:13)

Revelation 10:1 - 11:13 could easily be titled "Acts, Part 2." The book of Acts begins with Jesus ascending to Heaven in a cloud after telling his disciples that they, under the power of the Holy Spirit, would be his witnesses to Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the whole world. This was shortly before the time of Pentecost (Jewish celebration of the spring harvest). Now, in Revelation 10, John again sees a mighty angel, whom we believe to be Jesus (the angel Michael) traveling between Heaven and earth in a cloud.

Jesus declares that he will give power to his two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) and that they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. The Bible teaches that Jesus' two witnesses are the Spirit of truth and the apostles (Matthew 10:18-20; John 15:26-27; Acts 5:32). The human element (the apostles) is represented by the lampstands; the divine (the Spirit of truth) by the olive trees, which produce olive oil. The relationship between the two is plain: a lampstand serves as a receptacle for oil, and together they provide light. In the same way, the apostles are the "receptacle" or habitation of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Hebrews 3:6). Together, they give light.

The references to Elijah and Moses (Revelation 11:5-6) are important, as they relate to the last prophecy in the Old Testament (Malachi 4:4-6). Elijah is the reconciler, and Moses is the deliverer from bondage. The work of the two witnesses will be to call mankind to be reconciled to God and worship him and to come out of bondage to sin. The two witnesses are not two men but a body of God's servants (Jesus' modern-day apostles) and the Spirit of truth. We understand Revelation to refer to these apostles as the 144,000 servants of God who are to be sealed prior to the releasing of the four winds. The work of the two witnesses will result in the harvest of a great multitude that no one can count. This is the same as it was at Pentecost, only on a much larger scale: at that time, Jesus' witnesses were the 12 apostles and the Spirit of truth; and there was an initial harvest of 3,000 believers.

So far, Revelation has told us about how God is going to act and how he will work through his servants for man's redemption in the last days. Now, we are about to see how sinful, self-sufficient man will respond to all of this. Before launching into details, though, John is given some background information as a sort of foundation for what Satan's agents are going to do.

History of Heaven's Ambassadors and Their Opposition (Revelation 12)

Revelation 12 depicts God's ambassadors collectively as a woman. In the Old Testament, this was the nation of Israel, after God called them out of Egypt to be his kingdom of priests (Exodus 19:5-6). The New Testament indicates that this calling encompasses all of God's elect (1 Peter 2:9-10). In this sense, all who believe in Jesus Christ belong to Israel. Revelation 12 describes the Messiah's first coming as the firstborn of the woman. He is the seed of the woman, the one who will crush the head of the serpent (Genesis 3:15).

Self-preservation and self-exaltation are the prominent characteristics of Satan, and these traits will be seen in those who follow him. Out of self-preservation, the serpent gets ready to devour the woman's child; but he fails. The serpent then turns his fury against the woman herself, but she is delivered. Finally, Revelation 12 ends with the serpent plotting his war tactics against the rest of the woman's children—those who keep God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Revelation 12:17).

How Man Responds To Crisis (Revelation 13:1-10)

Revelation 13 picks up with the execution of the serpent's battle plans. The beast coming up from the sea is reminiscent of the four beasts that came out of the sea in Daniel 7: it is, in fact, a conglomeration of all of them. This beast comprises all human systems of government and religion. The seven heads represent seven kings and seven hills (Revelation 17:9-10)—the complete system of false worship (seven is the number of completion)—and the ten horns represent ten kings who in the end will give their power and authority to the beast and fight against the Lamb (Revelation 17:12-14; 19:19).

When does this beast come up, and why? Daniel 7, combined with Revelation 7 gives us a clue. In Daniel 7, the beasts came out of the sea when the four winds were blowing. Revelation 7 speaks of the four winds being held back until the 144,000 are sealed. Therefore, it seems that the beast comes out of the sea sometime shortly after the 144,000 are sealed; that is, once the four winds have begun to blow.

The blowing of the four winds means harm for the earth, the sea, and the trees (which we believe to be caused by the trumpets). This will be a major crisis for earth, and it is in response to this crisis that the beast comes out of the sea.

For 1,260 days (Revelation 11:3), the two witnesses are calling mankind to worship the Creator God; and for 42 months (Revelation 11:2; 13:5), the beast is demanding that men worship it. During this time, the beast is persecuting God's saints.

The beast's major attraction seems to be its apparent invincibility: one of its heads has healed from a fatal wound, received in battle (Revelation 13:3, 14). From Revelation 17, we understand that each head represents a false form of worship. To identify the invincible head, we would look to history for a religious system that had great power to persecute the saints but whose power was brought to an end in battle. Because Revelation 13 indicates that the beast itself will exercise power for 42 literal months (three and one-half years), it is noteworthy that the little horn in Daniel 7 exercised power to persecute the saints for a "time, times, and half a time," which is three and one-half years, or 42 months. (Because of the methods God has set in place for counting time, each day of the 42 historical months is counted as a year.)

We understand that the wounded and healed head of the beast represents the same power as the little horn of Daniel 7; except that the little horn is the historical aspect, whereas the head is the future manifestation.

The False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-18)

The beast that comes up from the sea is very, very powerful. Let there be no question about that. Further, there will be no place on earth where its power is not felt.

The trouble is that the beast has seven heads. The one that has been healed is clearly the most prominent; however, there are six others, and each of them has its own ideas of how God ought to be worshipped. Whose ideas should ultimately hold sway over men's consciences?

Enter the false prophet. This beast comes out of the earth—something entirely new in prophecy. It resembles the Lamb but talks like the serpent. It is significant that Revelation 13:11 is the only place in Revelation that mentions the word lamb and does not refer to the Lamb of God. This fact is one of a number of clues to this beast's identity. We understand this beast to symbolize the dragon masquerading as the Lamb of God—Jesus Christ.

In addition to being the false prophet, the beast from the earth is identified in Revelation 17 as the beast from the Abyss, one of the kings of "Babylon"—the beast from the sea.

The false prophet exercises all the power of the beast from the sea on its behalf, and it even performs miracles and signs to back up its claim to speak for God. Finally, it sets up a image in honor of the beast from the sea and endows the image with power to force everyone to either worship it or be killed.

This is a replay of Daniel 3: Everyone will be forced to choose between worshipping the image set up by the king of Babylon or facing execution. No one will enter into this decision without full knowledge of what he or she is doing. The 144,000 have already given the message that Babylon is fundamentally unsound—that, although she is very, very powerful and apparently invincible (one of the heads actually recovered from a fatal wound), she cannot be trusted for security, because God is not her founder. Now, with the image in place, the 144,000 give the warning that if anyone sides with Babylon and the image and receives the mark of allegiance to her, he or she will also partake in her punishment—God's unmixed wrath.

Soon, everyone on earth has made his choice—either to trust Babylon (self-preservation) or to trust God, even if it means death. Now, the two witnesses are killed, as the Spirit of Truth no longer pleads with men; and shortly after (3.5 days, to be precise), the 144,000 ascend visibly to Heaven as their enemies look on.

shepard · 05-20-2005, 08:56 PM

The Seven Last Plagues (Revelation 16)

Next come the plagues. The time of the plagues is the time of great tribulation mentioned in Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:15-22. God has evidently allotted a certain amount of time for the plagues; but because the plagues will be so severe, this time will be cut short so that the entire human race will not perish (Matt 24:22).

God's promise is that he will be a refuge for his people during this time of tribulation (Psalm 91). The plagues fall after the mark of the beast is given, and they fall on all who received it (Revelation 16:1-2). At the end of the plagues, Jesus comes to destroy Babylon and deliver his people (Revelation 19:11-21).

The Millennium (Revelation 20)

For 1,000 years, those who faithfully bore the testimony of Jesus, even at the cost of their lives, will reign with him (Revelation 20:4). The dragon has been chained and cast into the Abyss, and the wicked are all dead (verse 5).

At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan is released from the Abyss, and the wicked dead are resurrected. Satan goes forth to rally his troops to attack the camp of God's people, but fire comes down from God and devours them. This is the second death, from which there is no resurrection.

Before anyone is given over to the second death, the records are brought forth and examined. The books are opened (cf. Daniel 7:10), and the book of life—the scroll that was sealed with seven seals—is also opened. These are compared, and it is seen by all that God has been perfectly just and that Jesus, the Lamb of God, is indeed the lawful Kinsman-Redeemer.

The New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22)

Now, at last, the dwelling of God is with men. He will be our God and we will be his people. The battle has ended, and we are finally home to stay.

God Bless

mee · 05-20-2005, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shepard

The Seven Last Plagues (Revelation 16)

Next come the plagues. The time of the plagues is the time of great tribulation mentioned in Daniel 12:1 and Matthew 24:15-22. God has evidently allotted a certain amount of time for the plagues; but because the plagues will be so severe, this time will be cut short so that the entire human race will not perish (Matt 24:22).

God's promise is that he will be a refuge for his people during this time of tribulation (Psalm 91). The plagues fall after the mark of the beast is given, and they fall on all who received it (Revelation 16:1-2). At the end of the plagues, Jesus comes to destroy Babylon and deliver his people (Revelation 19:11-21).

The Millennium (Revelation 20)

For 1,000 years, those who faithfully bore the testimony of Jesus, even at the cost of their lives, will reign with him (Revelation 20:4). The dragon has been chained and cast into the Abyss, and the wicked are all dead (verse 5).

At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan is released from the Abyss, and the wicked dead are resurrected. Satan goes forth to rally his troops to attack the camp of God's people, but fire comes down from God and devours them. This is the second death, from which there is no resurrection.

Before anyone is given over to the second death, the records are brought forth and examined. The books are opened (cf. Daniel 7:10), and the book of life—the scroll that was sealed with seven seals—is also opened. These are compared, and it is seen by all that God has been perfectly just and that Jesus, the Lamb of God, is indeed the lawful Kinsman-Redeemer.

The New Jerusalem (Revelation 21-22)

Now, at last, the dwelling of God is with men. He will be our God and we will be his people. The battle has ended, and we are finally home to stay.

God Bless

so where do you think home is

Quahom1 · 05-20-2005, 10:17 PM

Would you two mind stopping the "Cut and Paste" already?

And this "my religion is better than your religion is growing very old". You don't see me telling you that your religion is all washed up and mine is the correct one...because I happen to have respect for you as individuals.

Oh, and I'm not part of Christendom. I am a Christian. I refuse to be lumped into your narrow minded perspective, as does the rest who post here. This is a discussion board, not a finger pointing, or condemnation game.

Quahom

truthseeker · 05-20-2005, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Oh, and I'm not part of Christendom. I am a Christian. I refuse to be lumped into your narrow minded perspective, as does the rest who post here.

Quahom

I'll say...

And when you're wrapped up in that cut and paste, nothing's simple anymore...
what's with the battle of the dogma? Doesn't anybody have a thought process anymore?