Revelation, are you ready?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

Did not jesus himself condemn the main religion of his day because of their traditions(mark 7; 7-8)
It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men. Letting go the commandment of God, YOU hold fast the tradition of men.seems to me that christendom hold on to there tradtions of men as well . trinity doctrine , hellfire, imortality of the soul , pagan beliefs mixed in with bible beliefs there are many more if people bother to do their research . jesus did not mind expposing the main religion of his day because of there falseness its the same today he does not mind false teachers being shown up for what they are false . and people are led to believe that these manmade doctrines are from God when they are nothing of the sort

Yes, I suppose it was all as false as the religions and teachings of today (mine and yours included with everyone elses). However, this is going beyond the original intent of this thread. I suggest we get back to the chapters of Revelation.

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

I have a related question that perhaps our resident Bible scholars can answer. In Isaiah 14:12 morning star refers to either Satan and/or to the king of Babylon

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!

In Revelation morning star clearly refers to Christ coming in Glory (Rev 2:28 and 22:16).

16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you[a] this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. (Rev 22)

Does anyone have any insight into why the same name might be used? Maybe it's because Satan/humans inspired by satanic motivations try to usurp the Title? Or is it a translation issue?

hanging on by my tenterhooks,
lunamoth

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

1903 "When Uranus and Jupiter meet in the humane sign of Aquarius in 1914, the long-promised era will have made a fair start in the work of setting man free to work out his own salvation, and will insure the ultimate realization of dreams and ideals of all poets and sages in history." (Watchtower, May 1, 1903, p. 130-131; p3184 Reprints) * I thought this one was interesting

Sounds Babylonian to me.

1914 "While it's possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet this purely speculation to attempt to say just when. We see, however, that there are parallels between the close of the Jewish age and this Gospel age. These parallels seem to point to the year just before us part particularly the early months." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1914, p. 5527)

So was it the 'time of the end' or Armaggedon?

1917 'There will be no slip-up...Abraham should enter upon the actual possession of his promised inheritance in the year 1925' (Watchtower Oct. 15, 1917, p. 6157)

Did this actually happen?

1917 "And the mountains were not found. Even the republics will disappear in the fall of 1920. And the mountains were not found. Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy." (The Finished Mystery, 1917 edition, p. 258

Quite Prolific...

1918 "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, p. 89)

Was this a spiritual return, or a literal return?

1922 "The period must end in 1925. The type ending, the antitype must begin; and therefore 1925 is definitely fixed in the scriptures. every thinking person can see that a great climax is at hand. The Scriptures clearly indicate that the climax is the fall of Satan's empire and the full establishment of the Messianic kingdom. This climax being reached by 1925, and that marking the beginning of the fulfillment of the long promised blessings of life to the people, millions now living on earth will be living then and those who obey the righteous laws of the new arrangement will live forever. Therefore it can be confidently said at this time that millions now living will never die." (Golden Age, Jan. 4, 1922, p. 217)

What does this mean, Mee?

1924 "The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914. (Watchtower 1924, p. 211)

So then why are you still talking about 1914 when your organization has clearly stated 1925 as a 'definate'?

1938 "They had preached that in an early time God would overthrow "Christendom". Many had emphasized the year 1925 as the date, and then when that date did not materialize the date was moved up to 1932. Again, 1932 came and ''Christendom'' was not destroyed, and now it was discovered that "Christendom" would be spared for a while longer for the sake of the Jonadab class, and this made the proud "elective elder" crowd very mad." (Watchtower Feb. 15, 1938 p. 54)

Sounds like some personal issues with Christendom. Where you guys still upset because of the persecution back in 1918?

1971 "Shortly, within our twentieth century, the "battle in the day of Jehovah" will begin against the modern antitype of Jerusalem, Christendom." (The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah; 1971; 2nd ed.; p. 216)

Is Jehovah particularly angry with Jerusalem and Christendom? Or are Jehovah's Witnesses particularly angry with Jerusalem and Christendom? If God is against all false religion, then why do JW always make Jerusalem and Christendom an issue in the doctrine? I'm not even coming at you wrong anymore, Mee. But these things quoted here sound like a personal attack with the intent of using the Bible to back it up.

[didymus]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Mark 13:14-23 14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days. 21 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand
.

Touche faithful, i can't dispute that verse. as i was reading i noticed that he spoke to those in luke regarding the coming kingdom, which he said won't come with careful observation. it is within you. in mark he is speaking of the end times and the great tribulation. it seems that he views the end times and the tribulation different from each other. at tmes they seem to be different but with slight variations and at other times they appear to be similar.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I have a related question that perhaps our resident Bible scholars can answer. In Isaiah 14:12 morning star refers to either Satan and/or to the king of Babylon


In Revelation morning star clearly refers to Christ coming in Glory (Rev 2:28 and 22:16).



Does anyone have any insight into why the same name might be used? Maybe it's because Satan/humans inspired by satanic motivations try to usurp the Title? Or is it a translation issue?

hanging on by my tenterhooks,
lunamoth

Im not sure which translation you are using but Isaiah 14:12 reads like this

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

thats from the NJV and the NKJV isnt much different.

[mee]

for me i find it very upbuilding to see how Jehovahs people have kept on the watch over the years .they were certainly right about christendom . because since 1919 christendom have had no hold on jehovahs people . we have cast off all of the false religious beliefs since then ,and are moving ahead in the preaching work that jesus said true christians would be doing in this time of the end.

And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come(matt 24;14)and revelation14;6-7

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, saying in a loud voice: "FEAR God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived, and so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by mee

"FEAR God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived, and so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.

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This is the sum of the good news of God?

lunamoth

[Faithfulservant]

Its always interesting to me the people that claim to be true christians... yet reject that most elemental part of Him.

My sympathy goes for people that believe the word of men over the word of God. and are so easily misled.. like sheep to the slaughter. If these same people would spend as much time in the word as they do reading other materials that are supposed to be the only way to understand the bible then I dont believe it would such a problem.. I feel that they are completely missing out on the gift given us with the Holy Spirit who is the only one that can interpret for us.

I would like to remind you Mee that this is a Christian forum and we are all part of Christendom here and your evasive answering and complete avoidance of sincere abject evidence while promoting your faith with cut and pasting is becoming tiresome to say the least. If you have any of your own thoughts I would be interested in seeing them rather than the thoughts of some men in NY who tell you what to say while you try to witness to us. We have all had our experiences with JW door to door witnessing so theres no need to use that tactic on this forum.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Im not sure which translation you are using but Isaiah 14:12 reads like this

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

thats from the NJV and the NKJV isnt much different.

NIV and NAS have "morning star" and "star of the morning" respectively.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Its always interesting to me the people that claim to be true christians... yet reject that most elemental part of Him.

It's always interesting to me that anyone genuinely thinks they are the arbiters of what "true Christians" are or what the most elemental parts of Christianity are.

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by mee

for me i find it very upbuilding to see how Jehovahs people have kept on the watch over the years .they were certainly right about christendom . because since 1919 christendom have had no hold on jehovahs people . we have cast off all of the false religious beliefs since then ,and are moving ahead in the preaching work that jesus said true christians would be doing in this time of the end.

And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come(matt 24;14)and revelation14;6-7

And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, saying in a loud voice: "FEAR God and give him glory, because the hour of the judgment by him has arrived, and so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.

Then what are you doing in this forum?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

It's always interesting to me that anyone genuinely thinks they are the arbiters of what "true Christians" are or what the most elemental parts of Christianity are.

I'm a sailor (I know that for absolute fact), who happens to strongly believe in Christ. After that, nothing is cut in stone...

v/r

Q

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm a sailor (I know that for absolute fact), who happens to strongly believe in Christ. After that, nothing is cut in stone...

v/r

Q

If you ever need it cut in stone, though, I'd recommend Oded Golan.

I hear he does fantastic work.

[mee]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

This is the sum of the good news of God?

lunamoth

matthew 24;14 and this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations and then the end will come . (this is goodnews because only Gods kingdom will bring peace to the earth , the end of all manmade goverments what a relief for mankind, i would call this very very good news)
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite(daniel 2;44)

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

It's always interesting to me that anyone genuinely thinks they are the arbiters of what "true Christians" are or what the most elemental parts of Christianity are.

yeah thats what I said. Playing word games with me again?