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Old 05-08-2009, 04:07 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

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Originally Posted by shawn View Post
What we have is a paternalistic society, worldwide.
With big brother, and big uncle as well.
But it is a single parent family being a patriarchy with a mistress/maidservant.
So for the sake of balance, our dysfunctional family structure needs some reconciliation.
Both patriarchy and matriarchy need to be wed in equality.
Something which has not been done before in recorded history in any significant way.
Both have good qualities which can be emphasized.
But on their own they can become tyrannical and capricious.
I fully agree with the above.
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:11 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

yea so do l! its maternalistic we need more of!! someone should tell russell and myself to get with it on the english language front

lets all enjoy ourselves till the real mara digm shift occurs.
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:25 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

No, I don't agree with that. I think we need more "healthy" matriarchal and patriarchal qualities. Your own views are terribly one-sided and flawed, idealizing the feminine and demonizing the masculine. A clearer picture needs to embrace both.
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:30 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Also, NA, please refer to my post on the previous page here:

Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"
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Old 05-08-2009, 05:54 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Not if it includes war and fighting it doesn't; perhaps you have different definitions of feminine and masculine, its not black and white and l was not idealizing nor demonizing.

The problem when discussing exterminating people is that we can get twitchy about how it somehow can get translated/digressed into the facts about female 'inequality' through the ages as well. So basically we need less killing each other and more loving and protecting other families, not just our own. But of course it is anti male in that it is a fact that paternalism [thanks shawn!] rules, therefore imbalance reigns.

Thats all l picked up from russell, l did not interrogate his speech to that extent, and thats why pow wows are needed to extend discussions for folk to be reading off the same page, and why cross cultural/national talks take up so much time and bureaucracy that nothing gets implemented soon enough, especially regarding ecological issues in a holistic way.

The symbiotic relationship concerning menstruation is a fact therefore a natural law; just because things are 'impossible' doesnt mean one cannot strive for that possibility. l do not want complete reversal just more women at the table and the altar in an open acknowledgment of equality.

Are you denying that it is males who cause and effect wars over his story?
[btw l believe in reincarnation so am not talking as a female but as a human].
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Old 05-08-2009, 06:15 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

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Originally Posted by NA
Not if it includes war and fighting it doesn't;
What is that in response to?

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and l was not idealizing nor demonizing.
If you agree with Means then indeed you are for we have patriarchy identified specifically with an unhealthy form of patriarchy, accompanied by strong polemical rhetoric, alongside an idealized matriarchy. And let it not be said that the matriarchy referred to isn't really a matriarchy because Means goes on in rhetorical fashion to praise the virtues of the would-be women leaders of said community.

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The problem when discussing exterminating people is that we can get twitchy about how it somehow can get translated/digressed into the facts about female 'inequality' through the ages as well. So basically we need less killing each other and more loving and protecting other families, not just our own. But of course it is anti male in that it is a fact that paternalism [thanks shawn!] rules, therefore imbalance reigns.
See for me, that's not the issue at all. I don't see rejecting present patriarchies as anti-male. I see these idealized assertions about matriarchy and women against the backdrop of the demonization of patriarchy as problematic. Means' presentation is so thick with meaningless rhetoric that his message is obscured. If indeed his message is only that "we need less killing each other and more loving and protecting other families, not just our own" to quote your post above, then I don't disagree. I understand that's all you picked up but he says a great deal more than that and imo intentionally uses the word matriarchy to describe it, but in trying to twist the meaing of an established word his own meaning becomes twisted. If we take away everything else he's said, reducing it to the message you have provided, then he's not saying much of anything interesting, just joining up on the peace and love bandwagon I readily ride with.

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The symbiotic relationship concerning menstruation is a fact therefore a natural law;
That women have menstrual cycles is a fact. The rest is rhetoric and facts twisted to support his idealization of matriarchy and demonization of patriarchy.

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Are you denying that it is males who cause and effect wars over his story?
Yes. To refer to a common expression, if the man is the head, the woman is the neck. The problem is, just as women haven't historically received recognition for much of the good they've given to society, they haven't received much recognition for the bad either. Feminism seeks to reclaim the good but it ignores that the bad is also there in waiting. Both men and women are in this together. We've both dug ourselves in deep. Only together can we get ourselves back out.

SG gave a nod to some of this previously: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"
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Old 05-08-2009, 06:31 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

hi dauer when you said we need to embrace both l answered not if it includes warfare which l see as a predominantly male preoccupation, despite your assertions to the contrary.
as yes the neck supporting the head, how nice! why not left/right brain hemi spheres instead!!
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Old 05-08-2009, 06:39 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

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hi dauer when you said we need to embrace both l answered not if it includes warfare which l see as a predominantly male preoccupation, despite your assertions to the contrary.
Hence, idealization and demonization. Whether males and females are different types, following different lines of development, or human psychological development can't be classified in terms of male and female, you're still idealizing a female typology and demonizing a male typology. Yours is the same type of attitude that Gilligan protested against, albeit your bias is reactionary whereas the one she was protesting against was institutionalized. The problem in both cases is their extreme.

Quote:
as yes the neck supporting the head, how nice! why not left/right brain hemi spheres instead!!
We could use that analogy, mutatis mutandis. It doesn't really matter.

edit:

actually, I take that back about that analogy illustrating the same thing. It doesn't. The point of mine was that women have been observed to be working behind the scenes, influencing men for both good and evil, sometimes the actual ones calling the shots despite public appearances. Yours suggests a very different idea, merely emphasizing your position that men and different of developmental typologies, your clearly being of the opinion that htefemale type is superior.
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Old 05-08-2009, 06:50 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

hi l dont know gilligan but will admit to being totally reactionary and so of course would fight tooth and nail to protect my family.
but we are way off..and as you said words do matter, can be misinterpretated twisted and misunderstood.
With Thatcher still in mind regarding the Falklands l an under no illusion as to the capacity of a female, but this is because of the system already in place, the hierarchy of powers, dominance etc etc. [and russells take on the European].
so the paradigm shift still stands in my view, which is more equality in decision making concerning global survival. As the female gives birth she will be more inclined to think of children before herself and others.
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Old 05-08-2009, 06:58 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

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hi l dont know gilligan but will admit to being totally reactionary and so of course would fight tooth and nail to protect my family.
No, I mean that you are reactionary in your demonization of patriarchy and idealization of matriarchy. But your other reaction illustrates my point. It is quite ethnocentric. Who do you fight to protect your family? A demonized other. It is the same mentality that you yourself claim to be against.

Quote:
With Thatcher still in mind regarding the Falklands l an under no illusion as to the capacity of a female, but this is because of the system already in place, the hierarchy of powers, dominance etc etc.
Or maybe it also has something to do with the fact that women are human too.

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As the female gives birth she will be more inclined to think of children before herself and others.
Women are just as likely to be egocentric and ethnocentric. To go back to Carol Gilligan, the difference for her is that the stages women go through are not framed around the theme of justice and equity. The key is that both men and women are going through the same stages. They're just contextualized differently for each.
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Old 05-08-2009, 07:06 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

l think we will have to agree to disagree cos now you are contextualising me wrongly imo. l did not bring up idealize/demonize, only that there is an imbalance that needs to redressed ie more female contribution to power politics to change the world!
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Old 05-09-2009, 02:14 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

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Originally Posted by Pathless View Post
Some interesting points. First, let me address the "historical truth" issue. Who is writing the history? When you mention the tribes you are familiar with, how are you familiar with them? Are you familiar with individuals within those tribes, as they exist today, after 500 years of cultural and bodily annihilation by disease and genocidal war, after the carving up of land into reservations, after the kidnapping of children from kin to transfer them to boarding schools? What is left of the history?
It's kinda difficult to converse with a person who has been dead for a few hundred years, . Yes, I have known and still know a handful of people who are better in touch with their indigenous heritage. Some other resources include a book called "Hanta Yo." Also some books by Fool's Crow and Black Elk are in my library, and I am always looking for more resources to round out my understanding of the Cherokee.

PBS is just about finished running a series "We Shall Remain," (American Experience program,) quite excellent in my opinion, for at least making an attempt to present the Native side of the story in context with the Colonials. This week past they told the story of Geronimo, next week they will tell the story of the Wounded Knee uprising that took place in the early '70's.

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It's hard to know what things were like on the two continents of Turtle Island before 1492. The historical record we have is certainly biased, full of prejudices, preconceptions, and outright lies. How can we be certain that what RM is claiming is not true? I'm willing to give the man the benefit of the doubt and at least allow him to speak his mind and recount the history of indigenous people as he has come to understand it. I'm certainly not convinced that he speaks verifiable, unvarnished truth, but I do welcome his version of history, if for no other reason than to add some counterweight to the scales of the historical record, which are polluted with racism and the fanciful embellishments of the apparent victors.
No argument from me...

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Counting coup: from what I understand, your account of war as something akin to the superbowl is pretty close to the "war" practiced by the natives. I think Means' point was that the "all or nothing" war, as you put it, practiced by Europeans and waged on the native inhabitants of North and South America, was an entirely foreign concept to those people. Possibly--very probably--people did die in their engagements, but the scale of both the "war" and the casualties from those contests were completely negligible compared to the crusading, pillaging, raping, and murdering perpetrated by the Europeans.
Absolutely.

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One other thing to keep in mind is that by the time the English colonies got under way, disease had likely rampaged up into North America, decimating the population, so that when the English arrived, the people had already gone through a holocaust that had broken down their social structures. It's likely also that they were familiar with the shenanigans of the conquistadors down south and in California; due to the precarious state of their cultures and the advent of the "all or nothing" style war that was raging in other parts of the continents, the tribes likely did develop more aggressive war tactics to use in defense of their lands. They were, after all, facing hordes of invaders.
Actually, that series I just mentioned referenced the spread of disease. A lot was accidental, coming directly with the Pilgrims and the Conquistadors, for example. Later, one tactic used to help decimate the indigenous population was to deliberately infect the blankets that were traded, spreading disease by that route, an early method of "germ" warfare.

I have no argument that indigenous tribes were dealt with cruelly. In fact, I would argue they were dealt with more cruelly than any other culturally significant people...including Africans. I would also add that indigenous peoples as a whole were more open to interaction with cultures other than their own, which frequently led to their downfall. They were *too* trusting.
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Old 05-09-2009, 07:18 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

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It's kinda difficult to converse with a person who has been dead for a few hundred years, .
Juan, I can't argue with that logic

So what do you think about matriarchy vs. patriarchy ?

A few posters have advocated it is time to try matriarchy.

But Dauer has made a pretty good argument that what should be done is what is fair, so neither matriarchy or patriarchy is good.
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Old 05-09-2009, 09:25 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

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Juan, I can't argue with that logic

So what do you think about matriarchy vs. patriarchy ?

A few posters have advocated it is time to try matriarchy.

But Dauer has made a pretty good argument that what should be done is what is fair, so neither matriarchy or patriarchy is good.
I guess like Dauer I don't really have much of an opinion on the matter, just a long standing observation:

Ever notice how developed the warrior "caste" is in a "matriarchal" society?

Boudiccia, for example?

Quote:
In AD 60-61 there was an uprising led by Queen Boudiccia. Boudiccia had become the leader of the Iceni people (from East Anglia) when her husband died. The Iceni people were angry with the Romans and started a revolt .

With an army of 70,000, they attacked Colchester and London before having a major battle with the Roman army. The rebels lost and Boudiccia drank poison to save herself from being taken prisoner.
Roman Britain

Seems to me estrogen isn't all butterflies and daisies...despite the hype to the contrary.

Another case in point...don't get between a momma bear and her cubs. Not much different translated to humans.

I think if one really tears the situation down to its bare essence, "paternal" and "maternal" societies are illusions, just one more way of attempting to label. The reality as I see it, is that even if the men do happen to rule the halls of government; momma rules every supper table that exists in any form it exists. So women always have and always will have a formative influence regardless of political structure. At least until the state figures out a way to usurp motherhood from the raising of children (like Huxley's Brave New World).
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Old 05-10-2009, 12:18 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

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Pathless, I think that women are better team players, leaders and bring less ego to the table. Part of the reason for this is because they have been minorities for so long (eventhough they are the majority of the population !) that they have deeper understanding of concensus and power sharing.


So yes, you are right, it is time for paradigm shift.
/quote shawn
What we have is a paternalistic society, worldwide.
With big brother, and big uncle as well.
But it is a single parent family being a patriarchy with a mistress/maidservant.
So for the sake of balance, our dysfunctional family structure needs some reconciliation.
Both patriarchy and matriarchy need to be wed in equality.
Something which has not been done before in recorded history in any significant way.
Both have good qualities which can be emphasized.
But on their own they can become tyrannical and capricious. /unquote

l don't think anyone here has advocated a switch to total matriarchy a la total patriarchy system we have witnessed if the system and structure is the same ie competition, aggression and warfare over the worlds resources.

We dont know how a 'total' matriarchy would manifest anyways would we? we are still using the same concepts in imagining that. its all very well pointing to Boudecia [who no doubt still had her husbands lieutenants etc ie the same system in place], its just like Thatchter trying to be a man in a mans world [as it has been evolving]. Very succinctly discussed by Linda on a Judaism thread ie the inherent patriarchy within Europe at least.

/quote juantoo
Seems to me estrogen isn't all butterflies and daisies...despite the hype to the contrary.

Another case in point...don't get between a momma bear and her cubs. Not much different translated to humans.

I think if one really tears the situation down to its bare essence, "paternal" and "maternal" societies are illusions, just one more way of attempting to label. The reality as I see it, is that even if the men do happen to rule the halls of government; momma rules every supper table that exists in any form it exists. So women always have and always will have a formative influence regardless of political structure. At least until the state figures out a way to usurp motherhood from the raising of children (like Huxley's Brave New World)./unquote

Aye and testoterone isn't all ball cocks and black eyes; no one is denying shared human hormones and instincts. Russell just pointed out the correspondence between the moon/female cycle and therefore perhaps a greater attunment to earth and how to treat it and it inhabitants. l believe the male is obviously 'influenced' too, just not manifested so blatantly bloody and without the insight of childbirth and suckling which entails a different 'take' on 'things'. He was just making the point of natural connectiveness with regard to his culture viz a viz 'mother nature' thats all, and looking back fondly no doubt when folk did live relatively peacably [in contrast to the dehumanizing genocides of the 'civilized' world]. The fact that men do happen to rule government [and religious hierarchies,still] makes them the continual creators of weapons of mass destruction; who knows how it would have panned out if women 'ruled' the world? Methinks not like this.



Of course, since the other half of the population were not allowed 'open' joint citizenship/power it is no wonder it seeped out sideways hence the remarks made about women eg rudyard Kipling [wasn't he a racist btw?].

Maybe we need to look at what communities [eg tibet] that are left in the world who do practice either matrilineal,matriarchal or maternalistic modes in some form or another to see what benefits it may bring 'to the table'. l have no doubt it will involve much more talk before so easily 'reaching for the gun'.

The political structure must change but unfortunately it is irrevocably wedded to the religious androcentric structure of Europe. l have high hopes for the next generations though as they have gone through much more sexually, the women becoming more logical and the men emotional 'in general', here at least l can see it.

So nature is 'redressing', slowly, if we can stay alive that long.
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