Interafaith: Comparative religion: world religions

Go Back   Interfaith forums > Religion, Faith, and Theology > Ancient History and Mythology




Ancient History and Mythology Mythology and cultures of the ancient world

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 05-25-2009, 04:31 AM   #91 (permalink)
Fiercely Interdependent
 
Pathless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In a farmhouse, on a farm. With goats.
Posts: 2,526
Pathless will become famous soon enough
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Quote:
Originally Posted by juantoo3 View Post
With due respect, I must have missed the diversity of ideas. What I have seen is the criticism of the current system, with no real proposal for a viable alternative other than a romantic idealism.
What I mean to say is that I am interested in a diversity of ideas that provide alternatives to the global system. I don't think a hegemonic system of any kind is a viable answer, and I don't pretend or claim to have a magical hegemonic solution to replace the horrid "global marketplace." Yes, I am critical of that global marketplace, and I am interested in seeing a spectrum of alternative economics implemented to replace the global system: a kind of regionalism, with lesser tolls on resources, and with more just, productive, and enjoyable work for human beings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juantoo
So, how does your proposed solution provide for food, shelter, clothing and transportation for 7 billion people sustainably, without modern manufacturing processes, modern economic methods and modern distribution systems?
So because I dare criticize the viability, acceptability, and humanity of global capitalism, I must also provide an all-encompassing alternative? Dear Gawd!! I'm sorry, I'm not able to do that. No one person could; no government could. This is precisely the problem I am trying to make apparent: the hegemony of economics, indeed the hegemony of ideas, imposed worldwide is not an appropriate way to go about dealing with the situation of life on Earth. It's a form of imperialism.
Pathless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2009, 04:36 AM   #92 (permalink)
Fiercely Interdependent
 
Pathless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In a farmhouse, on a farm. With goats.
Posts: 2,526
Pathless will become famous soon enough
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Quote:
Originally Posted by juantoo3 View Post
Quite the contrary...the "current global system" precisely responds to market conditions. Those responses may not be the best possible for everything involved, particularly the environment, but indeed the economic system is built to provide for market pressures and demands. It might be argued that some of those demands are artificially created...who "needs" a new car anyway...but the essential need for transportation does indeed exist. The need for food to feed 7 billion plus exists and will not go away, regardless of what system is used. The need for shelter for 7 billion plus will not go away. The need to clothe 7 billion plus will not go away. The need for heat and cooking for 7 billion plus will not go away. The need to educate and train 7 billion people will not go away.
It may respond to market conditions, but that is not the same as providing a demonstrable benefit in a peaceful manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by junatoo3
Benefit would need to be demonstrable, and would have to address (in a peaceful manner) the issues that face a world staring at a population of 7 billion unique human beings and counting.
Pathless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2009, 04:35 PM   #93 (permalink)
What's Amatta U
 
Janz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: My Foresthaven, Colorado
Posts: 421
Janz is a jewel in the roughJanz is a jewel in the roughJanz is a jewel in the rough
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

I have been reading some interesting writings by Max Dashu...
Articles by Max Dashu

http://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/icons.html

Matrix* societies are not patriarchy in reverse, but an entirely different paradigm. Cultures that are both matrilineal and matrilocal correlate with indicators of female liberty and power: decision-making authority, political and spiritual leadership, economic leverage, inheritance and land rights. Egalitarian gender politics are encoded in the social fabric: matrilineages have no "fallen women," no "illegitimate" children, and matrilocal husbands, surrounded by their wives' kin, are unlikely to commit marital abuse. Certain indigenous cultures in Niger, Yunnan, Sumatra, Vietnam, Ontario, Surinam, Micronesia uphold these egalitarian principles. This international visual presentation probes the implications matrix* cultures hold for a future of gender equality. What would the world be like if female elders or women's councils had the final say on war?

*Matrix defines egalitarian matrilineal / matrilocal societies and also implies valueplaced on life-support networks
.

Any thoughts?


Janz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2009, 12:46 AM   #94 (permalink)
fluffy future
 
nativeastral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: scotland
Posts: 1,525
nativeastral has a spectacular aura aboutnativeastral has a spectacular aura about
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

watched a recent progamme called 'feasts' on bbc4 where in kerala the lineage is matrilineal and there are less communal fighting which is quite rife elsewhere between castes; the place seems more peaceful, but of course could be due to the long history of the spice trade and many incomers staying eg christians,jews sufis so more toleration. the feast celebrates equalitarianism between all humans setting aside differences sharing meals and festivities. In any case women are given equal honour disenfranshised desptite protestations to the contrary. viva future intelligence.
nativeastral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 04:46 AM   #95 (permalink)
Fiercely Interdependent
 
Pathless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In a farmhouse, on a farm. With goats.
Posts: 2,526
Pathless will become famous soon enough
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamarz View Post
I have been reading some interesting writings by Max Dashu...
Articles by Max Dashu

Icons of the Matrix

Matrix* societies are not patriarchy in reverse, but an entirely different paradigm. Cultures that are both matrilineal and matrilocal correlate with indicators of female liberty and power: decision-making authority, political and spiritual leadership, economic leverage, inheritance and land rights. Egalitarian gender politics are encoded in the social fabric: matrilineages have no "fallen women," no "illegitimate" children, and matrilocal husbands, surrounded by their wives' kin, are unlikely to commit marital abuse. Certain indigenous cultures in Niger, Yunnan, Sumatra, Vietnam, Ontario, Surinam, Micronesia uphold these egalitarian principles. This international visual presentation probes the implications matrix* cultures hold for a future of gender equality. What would the world be like if female elders or women's councils had the final say on war?

*Matrix defines egalitarian matrilineal / matrilocal societies and also implies valueplaced on life-support networks.

Any thoughts?


Some very relevant text there. Dashu's review: A Critique of Cynthia Eller's The Myth of Matriarchal Prehistory:
Why an Invented Past Won't Give Women a Future
, should be objectively read by those who seem to believe that "matriarchy" must be "patriarchy in reverse," as Dashu puts it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Dashu
All this polarization and oversimplification avoids the real issue, which is not female domination in a reverse of historical female oppression, but the existence of egalitarian human societies: cultures that did not enforce a patriarchal double standard around sexuality, property, public office and space; that did not make females legal minors under the control of fathers, brothers, and husbands, without protection from physical and sexual abuse by same. We know of many societies that did not confine, seclude, veil, or bind female bodies, nor amputate or deform parts of those bodies. We know, as well, that there have been cultures that accorded women public leadership roles and a range of arts and professions, as well as freedom of movement, speech, and rights to make personal decisions. Many have embraced female personifications of the Divine, neither subordinating them to a masculine god, nor debarring masculine deities.
(emphasis added)

Those last four words are fairly important, and underscore the simple but very salient point that seems lost on those who believe that "matriarchy" must be "patriartchy in reverse": egalitarian, pantheistic/polytheistic systems of diversity are possible. Just because patriarchy is one way, and tends to be monolithic and hierarchical, does not mean that all other systems must necessarily be that way as well. If that were so, there would certainly be no point in discussing alternatives, because there would be no alternatives.

Also consider Dashu's discussion of the problem of terminology when bringing gendered analysis to studies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashu
Evidence for such societies exists, though there's no agreement on what to call them. For many people, "matriarchy" connotes a system of domination, the reverse and mirror-image of patriarchy. Identified with early anthropological theory and, during the 60s, with slams against African-American women, it has been overwhelmingly rejected by feminist researchers. “Matrilineal” is inadequate, focusing on the single criterion of descent. "Matrifocal" is too ambiguous, since it could be argued (and has been) that many patriarchal societies retain a strong emphasis on the mother. A variety of names have been proposed for egalitarian matrilineages, including "matristic," [Gimbutas, 1991] "gynarchic" societies, [Gunn Allen, 1986] "woman-centered" societies, or "gylany." [Eisler, 1987] My preferred term is "matrix society," which implies a social network based on the life support system as well as mother-right.
A final introductory point is made by Dashu. She calls attention to academic biases, and thereby contextualizes the standard reaction and dismissal by the old guard and establishment types of attempts by non-traditional academics and feminists to reconceptualize/re-envision the human past:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashu
Old-school academics as well as post-structuralist upstarts like to scold refractory feminists about evidence and certainties. The pretense of disinterested objectivity reminds me of what Gandhi said when asked what he thought about Western Civilization: "I think it would be a very good idea." The notion that mainstream academia is somehow value-free, but feminist perspective is necessarily ideological and agenda-driven, is still widely held. Covert agendas pass easily under the banner of objectivity.

The project of reevaluating history with a gender-sensitive eye is in its infancy, and necessarily allied to indigenous and anticolonial perspectives. An international feminist perspective views history as remedial - - because sexism and racism have obscured, distorted and omitted what information is available to us - - and provisional, because new information keeps pouring in. History has changed rapidly since the 60s, in every field: Africana, Celtic studies, West Asian studies, American Indian scholarship. Thousands of new books come out every year that look deeper into women's status and stories in a huge range of societies and periods, at a level of detail not possible before. Fresh interpretations are being advanced from voices not heard before. It's way too soon for sweeping dismissals.
(emphasis added)

She is calling attention to a little-acknowledged phenomenon: our study of history is a process, both "remedial" and "provisional". We can allow ourselves to shift perspective and consider alternatives to the progressive notion of history as a trajectory leading from somewhere--for example, Classical Greece--to the future or even to now. When we do study history with the accepted notion that civilization began with the Greeks and has led us through time to the current global system of colonized/colonial nation-states, it is going to, by default, look a certain way: it will reflect that linear and progressive consciousness which the paternalistic, technological and financial husbandry and policing of the world's population and resources is so attached to.

On the other hand, if we can step out of that particular brand of subjectivity in order to consider other subjectivities/perspectives, or even cultivate a true objectivity (very difficult to do, of course), we can begin to appreciate the value of diversity, which, oddly enough, allows us to appreciate egalitarianism. What valuable things might linear/progressive societies (concerned with paternal lineage; concerned with hoarding goods and with an exagerrated emphasis on "security"; concerned with beginnings and endings) gain from considering the ways of egalitarian societies (which focus on nurturing life, shared bonds; supported by abundance and celebrating the fecundity of life; acknowleding the immanence, connection, and embededness of human, animal, and vegetable life within a matrix of relationships)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dashu: Matrix Cultures: In the Web of Life
Sharing of food, shelter, and goods, and mutual support, assistance, and protection are fundamental values growing out of the matrix kindreds. They focus on sustaining the life-support network, under cardinal principles of cooperation, harmony, and living peaceably. The clans are founded on the blood tie, not the legal tie of marriage. They share the substances of life: blood, milk, food and fire. This can be described as both an economic relationship and a magical bonding.

These motherlines see themselves as part of larger circles of relationship. They reach out to other clans through giveaways and circles of redistribution. They relate to the natural world, and to each other, through linkages of each kindred to animals, plants, elements or social functions.
This last quote comes from Matrix Cultures
Pathless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 01:56 PM   #96 (permalink)
ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
 
juantoo3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 6,475
juantoo3 is a jewel in the roughjuantoo3 is a jewel in the roughjuantoo3 is a jewel in the rough
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Ok, I had a thought, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it seems to me this whole issue would be resolved if everyone was Jewish.

Matrilineal, matrifocal, matricultural. Why reinvent the wheel?, when all the world really needs is for everybody to have a Jewish mother.

Oy.
juantoo3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 07:20 PM   #97 (permalink)
fluffy future
 
nativeastral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: scotland
Posts: 1,525
nativeastral has a spectacular aura aboutnativeastral has a spectacular aura about
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Quote:
Originally Posted by juantoo3 View Post
Ok, I had a thought, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but it seems to me this whole issue would be resolved if everyone was Jewish.

Matrilineal, matrifocal, matricultural. Why reinvent the wheel?, when all the world really needs is for everybody to have a Jewish mother.

Oy.
fraid the wheel [system] does need re invented and wearing a wig and adhering to 613 rules will not make utopia
nativeastral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 08:10 PM   #98 (permalink)
ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
 
juantoo3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 6,475
juantoo3 is a jewel in the roughjuantoo3 is a jewel in the roughjuantoo3 is a jewel in the rough
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Well then, I guess we're all doomed.

What is the most common disease transmitted by Jewish Mothers?





Guilt.

Last edited by juantoo3; 05-31-2009 at 11:14 PM.
juantoo3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 11:26 PM   #99 (permalink)
ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
 
juantoo3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 6,475
juantoo3 is a jewel in the roughjuantoo3 is a jewel in the roughjuantoo3 is a jewel in the rough
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

What did the waiter ask the group of dining Jewish mothers? "Is Any
thing all right? "

How many Jewish mothers does it take to change a light bulb?
(Sigh) Don't bother, I'll sit in the dark, I don't want to be a nuisance
to anybody.

What's the difference between a Rottweiler and a Jewish Mother?
Eventually, the Rottweiler lets go.

Jewish view on when life begins: There's a big controversy on when life
begins. In Jewish tradition the fetus is not considered viable until
after it graduates from medical school.

Jewish Jokes Humor, Jokes, Family Humor, Thoughtful Sayings, Motivational, Religious

Yiddish Proverbs

If they give, take: if they take, yell!

The wheel turns round
Talk less, do more
When you grease palms, you ride
A liar should have a good memory
When you have no linen, you save the laundry bill
Petty thieves are hanged, major ones go free
Times is the best healer
Too smart outsmarts itself
No one is deaf to praise
None so deaf as those who will not hear
If one man calls you a donkey, ignore him. If two men call you a donkey, think about it. If three men call you a donkey, buy a saddle
What one has, one doesn't want; what one wants one doesn't have
Don't spit in the well, you might drink from it later
You can't chew with someone else's teeth
When a rogue kisses you, count your teeth
When it falls, it falls butter side down
Your friend has a friend, and your friend's friend has a friend; be discreet
An insincere peace is better than a sincere war
If grandma had wheels, she'd be a wagon
The highest wisdom is kindness
One fool makes many fools
The sun will set without your help
What is cheap, is dear
Death is the only certainty
The whole world is one town

Yiddish Sayings
juantoo3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2009, 11:31 PM   #100 (permalink)
ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
 
juantoo3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: somewhere out there
Posts: 6,475
juantoo3 is a jewel in the roughjuantoo3 is a jewel in the roughjuantoo3 is a jewel in the rough
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

So, the way I figure it is that if the whole world had a Jewish Mother, everyone would suffer equally from a guilt complex, but everyone would also eat. And most likely everyone would be a doctor, lawyer or dentist, or occasional banker or diamond cutter.
juantoo3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 12:37 AM   #101 (permalink)
fluffy future
 
nativeastral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: scotland
Posts: 1,525
nativeastral has a spectacular aura aboutnativeastral has a spectacular aura about
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

fantastic,
l like the highest wisdom is kindness.
watched a programme tonight bout a women in search of the tribes [all humans] who had travelled from where the 'first' mother created progeny [north africa-ish]; in this episode she stayed with some northern aborigines [after travelling via s.india and malayasia and noticing 'african' features in some 'tribes', especially those who stayed by the coast] whose creation story was of the 'creation mother from across the sea', which was completely different from the interior aborigines origin myths.
lets not talk about guilt spilt
l like the humour though
nativeastral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2009, 04:41 PM   #102 (permalink)
Fiercely Interdependent
 
Pathless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In a farmhouse, on a farm. With goats.
Posts: 2,526
Pathless will become famous soon enough
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Max Dashu refers to Marija Gimbutas, among others. Here's an older post of mine from another thread on prehistory and the goddess that may be relevant to the current discussion:

Prehistoric Goddess worship?
Pathless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2009, 03:47 PM   #103 (permalink)
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,103
dauer has a spectacular aura aboutdauer has a spectacular aura about
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Quote:
Originally Posted by pathless
A large part of my objection to the deconstruction of his message by focusing on his use of the offensive term "matriarchy" has to do with the fact that the Lakota, as well as any other group of American Indians, have, throughout the process and reification of American history since colonization, been stripped of their own languages and cultures. By the same fell strokes that have brought death and stagnation to their long-held cultural traditions, the roots of their languages, their sense of place and meaning, and their means of well-being, the remnants of these diverse groups of people have been forcibly herded onto impoverished bits of land called reservations and have had the English language stuck into their mouths and minds through violence and repression.
I understand your objection, however that doesn't in any way make his language less dangerous. For me this isn't about what happened to Means' people. That's in the past. I am more concerned, in general, with the world as it exists today and where it is going than with how it got that way. We can learn from the past, yes, but we live in the present, for the future.

Quote:
You are conjecturing what my response would be to a hypothetical situation in order to project your own response in this situation onto me in this similar hypothetical situation that you have presented. This is pretty close to putting words into my mouth.
I'm not attempting to project my own response onto you, just to draw a parallel. And was my example wrong? If so then I think it's likely another example would have worked in its place. You've already suggested a few.

To give another example, hasidism has an extremely negative view of non-Jews. This formed after many generations of persecution and negative stereotypes against Jews. At the same time, some of the ideas presented in hasidic texts are very progressive or of value in personal development. Hasidism began, for that matter, as an anti-authoritarian movement in Poland when the Jewish leadership, which had been given authority by the Polish government over the Jewish community, had become corrupt. I can get with the progressive ideas and personal growth stuff but I'm still critical of the anti-gentile language even if the reason for that language seems likely to have been persecution. What's more, their cultural dogmas became institutionalized. Now the anti-gentile language has become problematic. Chabad maintains those views and is one of the most active groups in terms of educational outreach toward other Jews. They're now educating noahides according to a cosmology that views gentiles as inherently less than Jews. I could excuse their language because some of what they say is good, but I don't. I criticize it. And I can't stand with them. So why risk the possibility that the language go that far? It's better to address it at its root.

I'm generally in the company of progressive folk. One thing I've observed is the way that those on the far left aren't all that different from those on the other end of the spectrum. For example, when I was a vegan I had a very difficult time relating to other vegans because of their dogmas. My reason for being vegan was the suffering of an animal while alive, its suffering during slaughter being less of an issue for me. For this reason I considered hunting an acceptable practice and would have eaten meat that was hunted had I been given the opportunity. But that difference in perspective didn't agree with their dogmas. If I expressed my opinion I frequently found myself ganged up upon.

Quote:
Why choose the Islamic leader to represent the anti-female views, by the way? Why not Christian? Why not Corporate American? Why not Martian? What's the value in the name of a chosen Demon, after all?
Because I was attempting to play to widely held biases in order to most likely cover your own. The culture doesn't matter, only the analogy.

Quote:
My response depends not on the manipulation of logic detached from a moral stance,
Is this an accusation? My arguments have a moral impetus that I've stated multiple times. Means' use of language is potentially dangerous. There are other people who've made similar cases without the same type of language, hence there's no reason to get behind Means and good reason to criticize him.

Quote:
My response depends not on the manipulation of logic detached from a moral stance, although I will use logic, as well as emotional rhetoric, in service to a moral stance
Now you're just playing word games. It's manipulation when someone else does it and not manipulation when you do it. Manipulation according to this definition is toward ends that you don't agree with. If it serves an end that you do like, then you don't consider it manipulation.

Quote:
Does this make me any different from a fundamentalist? Yes. How so? Because I am arguing not for the suppression of essential human rights and diversity in an effort to impose hegemony, but for the empowerment of all of us who make up the dispossessed and margnialized bits that consitute the majority of the world. I am not perpetuating establishment dogma, and there can be no comparison of the act of advocating "anti-establishment" positions, which are varied and multiple, to actively promoting the encrusted hegemony that rules the world through manipulation of emotions and opinion, and which uses acrobatic feats of logic to pervert "truth".
The definition that you linked to isn't in agreement with yours. You would have been better off just presenting your own definition. Also, you're using the words 'dogma' and 'position' to refer to synonymous situations. Why not be honest and say "there can be no comparison of the act of advocating "anti-establishment" [dogmas]..."? That's what's at issue. In this case too we see "manipulation of emotions and opinion". Criticism of the establishment isn't at issue. I've no gripe with that.

Quote:
but I will be so bold as to suggest here that y'all double check your sources in order to be sure that your arguments and thinking have not been subtly influenced and shaped by this same crusty hegemony.
I don't think that's at issue. I recently spent some time studying social constructionism for my IBA. Much of what I wrote was criticism of hard constructionism and what I coined constructionist-structurism, acting as if what has been unmasked is objectively true even when alternative and equally possible explanations exist, while acknowledging my own weak constructionist tendencies. My advisor is very into cultural studies. She reacted defensively and made assumptions about me that were untrue. This I have noticed is not uncommon for those who hold similar views, both the defensive reaction and the assumption that the critic falls into a particular category of people. It was for this reason that I had to clarify, and I will do so here as well, that I am critical of both status quo dogmas and those that are anti-status quo when they become overly dogmatic or morally problematic. In Means' case, I feel that both apply. To leave Means uncriticized would be to ignore a moral imperative.

Your position, as I understand it, is that Means' position isn't morally problematic and that criticism of him is. This is the likely core of our disagreement.

-- Dauer
dauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-2009, 07:11 AM   #104 (permalink)
Executive Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,103
dauer has a spectacular aura aboutdauer has a spectacular aura about
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

I would like to add to what I wrote above.

I decided to do a little reading into Dashu before hitting the sack. I couldn't find much academic material that took her seriously as a scholar (though I admittedly haven't had a chance to look through any of the academic search engines yet.) Most of the sites linking to her are interested in some form of gender politics or women's spirituality, not academic studies. To her credit, she has spoken at a number of universities but that doesn't legitimize her research. In fact the only academic critique of her work that I have seen could be found here, where the most relevant statements appear near the end of the page (and this is by no means an in-depth critical essay):

The Goddess Lives

Note these comments were not directed to her writing, but rather to an essay similar to her critique of Eller which would have made a critique of her paper redundant:
Quote:
The most disconcerting element of this article is the criticism Marler launches against Eller for changing her perspective. The fact that Eller’s book illustrates her departure from her past as an avid spiritual feminist infuriates Marler, which reveals the personal and dubious nature of this “debate.” A debate in which intelligent people cannot change their minds in light of new or compelling evidence is fundamentally flawed. Eller’s book apparently includes her evolution from embracing “female-centeredness” through to realizing that the myth of universal matriarchy largely serves to keep women bound in their place as mothers, nurturers, etc. Marler defensively explains that Eller’s main goal is to use the term “myth” to cast doubt on everything “feminist matriarchalists say.” Marler’s criticism focuses on the fact that Eller’s standpoint might diminish the momentum and “self-awakening” gained by many women who found spiritual sustenance in the Goddess movement. Marler reveals a problem I noticed when researching my essay about Feminist Spirituality; namely, the two debates do not have the same subject. Marler is concerned about contemporary feminist aims (despite overtly criticizing Eller’s position as being ‘political’) while Eller seems to be focusing on the evidence (or lack thereof) from the past and the potentially anti-feminist outcomes the active mis-representation of those facts may lead to. A movement that will not dialogue with its critics or incorporate and address their contributions, (as we have seen so frequently in this course), is not one which can claim rigor or authenticity."
One of the interesting things about the article to me is that it attempts to deconstruct the culture in which Dashu is enmeshed much in the same way that she criticizes academia. I think it's worthwhile to note that both the author of the article cited above and Eller are female and Eller appears to still be active in gender studies.

I am no scholar of the ancient world and I leave it to those who know better about the subject to figure what's what. I do know that it's not difficult for a motivated and believing individual to string a convincing narrative together out of inconclusive evidence. Dashu's is only one side of an ongoing debate that is better represented by more serious scholars whose views, as far as I can tell, generally side against her. She does of course cry foul against the academic community. Given the hit after hit in a simple google search for her name by groups that are involved in one way or another with gender politics I see little reason to give her words weight over the community that she criticizes. Being in a minority doesn't make a person more correct. While Dashu must appeal to "covert agendas" in academia, Olchowski is able to cite example after example of the gender politics that influence the writings of Dashu and other similar authors.

If the presentation of material by Dashu is only meant to make the case that matriarchies which were, due to the nature of matriarchy, superior to patriarchal societies -- which are inferior due to the nature of patriarchy -- may have existed then I have no objection. It's possible despite the lack of conclusive evidence. That possibility doesn't justify Means' rhetoric.

-- Dauer
dauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2011, 02:39 AM   #105 (permalink)
Interfaith Forums
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 10
Sensei is on a distinguished road
Re: Russell Means on "Paradigm Shift"

Interesting thread. I especially like the first post in this thread.
Sensei is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
matriarchy, native americans, paradigm shift, patriarchy, russell means

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Babylometer wil Lounge 30 09-17-2007 08:03 PM
Revelation, are you ready? Quahom1 Christianity 205 05-06-2006 03:47 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 ©2008, Crawlability, Inc.