Salvation not restricted to Christains

[Faithfulservant]

I agree He died for everyones sins.. the crux of the situation is that you have to repent before you get the forgiveness... you arent forgiven without it.. We dont get out of it that easy. Its just like humanity to want the most yet try to give the least.. Isnt it awesome that we have a God that understands us.

The verses you are quoting are for believers.. they dont apply to non-believers. Im not meaning to sound harsh. really.

If they were for everyone than His dying was for nothing.

[AndrewX]

I think what appeals so much to me about John 10:16 is not that it suggests to me that there is "Salvation" for other people than Christians ... since I don't believe in the Christian definition of Salvation to begin with. I'm much more Eastern in my approach, but since I do believe in God, I prefer to think of Earth as being like a giant schoolroom ... with 6 billion students!

And instead of Salvation, which is like being rescued from something, I prefer the idea of Liberation, which suggests the moving on toward greater freedom ... and Responsibility. Plato spoke of this, in his Allegory of the Cave (wiki page).

As more of a Liberal Christian, I hold the somewhat unorthodox view that God literally intended for us to dwell in this world, in "coats of skin" (bodies of flesh and blood), and YES, even in this "imperfect state" - which we might characterize as being apart from God ... and each other. But these were not intended as a permanent condition, as I see it, nor did God EVER set up a state of affairs whereby our `Immortal Soul' was, or could be, "at stake."

If there is no `Hell,' in the way we've come to conceive, imagine and fear it ... nor a Heaven in the sense of "streets paved with gold," but instead, just differing states of consciousness - then truly, all things are possible without violating either the laws of nature, of physics, of God - or even of common sense!

In short, the more we learn about ourselves, and the world we live in, the more we can see how God creates just as we do, yet on a much, much grander scale. Relative to human terms, God is Perfect beyond imagining ... but I also believe in Relative Perfection. Somewhere in between the Perfection of God, and the relative perfection of a human being ... I think we find men such as Jesus of Nazareth. Yet I think there have been others, and there always will be - except that in the future, ever so gradually, we shall see more of them, as Humanity begins to grow up, or spiritually mature.

Liberation, then, or `Salvation,' may come to be understood as a term describing the Spiritual state - of both consciousness and Being - of ANY man or woman, who has proceeded beyond the limitations of worldly living. We already understand this as righteousness, and as dwelling with God, yet CHRIST dwelled with God, even as He walked the very earth. Perhaps not in every moment was Jesus fully in touch with the Heavenly Father ... and therefore he was called into the wilderness, where for 40 days and 40 nights he fasted, and prepared himself to overcome great trials ... in order to permanently deepen his Relationship - with God.

We may not have been called, yet, to prepare for this kind of drawing closer to God, but there are Yogis, Saints, Mystics, devotees, spiritual aspirants, and followers of a dozen - or even several score - different traditions, throughout the world ... who have ALL spoken of undergoing such a preparation, even in similar terms ... and also of having experienced an extraordinary transformation of consciousness and of Being.

Some do not speak of this in purely spiritual or religious terms; other do. It depends on the person, their background, and what is most comfortable for them. Some have been ridiculed, doubted, even locked away for their "delusions." Others have been revered, exalted, even worshipped to the point of deification.

NEVER, NOT ONCE, have I ever said at CR - that Jesus was not a Son of God, or that he was not the Father's Son. Yet a curious phenomenon occurs, as soon as someone suggests that Jesus was God's Messenger, and that the Salvation he brought was in his Teachings - and most importantly, in the following of his Teachings.

I think, if we would dare to stop, and think, before trying to argue such a thing (which seems to obvious to me, that I forget sometimes that people even could choose to dispute it) .. I think, that we might find ourselves embarrassed. We would argue, that in following Christ's own instructions, we might not meet with Salvation ... while through the deification, and exaltation of THE MAN, we might?

I will not even dispute the teaching that Christ was fully mortal, fully divine ... yet I will put to you this: WHICH PART, do you deify, and glorify, when you "exalt Christ" ... and how do you tell the difference?

And if we are speaking of the blood of Jesus of Nazareth, in any other than a symbolic sense, remind me again how THIS is not exalting, and deifying, the MAN, over the `God.'

And what do we mean, anyway, with this word `exalt?' And why is it, remind me, for I am not so sure I understand, why it is different to exalt, or revere, the example of Righteousness, and Divine Living, through such an example as Christ Jesus ... than to exalt Sri Krishna in the East, or Mohammad in the Middle East, or the Buddha in Japan, or Quetzlcoatl in Central America.

For each of the Holy Books of these other nations, and peoples, speak plainly of these Holy men, as being - literally - the embodiment, and expression of the Divine, i.e., God on earth. Yes, fully human, fully divine.

Somewhere, I lost the thread. HOW IS IT, that Salvation was ever restricted - to Christians in the first place? Explain for me that.

Namaskar

[Faithfulservant]

I cant even respond to your post.. theres too much. So I will just respond to the last bit..

HOW IS IT, that Salvation was ever restricted - to Christians in the first place? Explain for me that

Because the bible says so... That is the authority on which I speak of. Nothing more and nothing less..

I would like to add that righeousness is doing what is right.. what is right? Gods word. So.. Gods word is righteous.. and we are righteous when we follow Gods word..

what is sin... sin is disobedience to God.. when do we sin... when we disobey God..

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I would like to add that righeousness is doing what is right.. what is right? Gods word. So.. Gods word is righteous.. and we are righteous when we follow Gods word..

what is sin... sin is disobedience to God.. when do we sin... when we disobey God..

I'll go with this much ...

- but my understanding of the Bible is that not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, shall be [saved].

And John 10:16 speaks to me of several paths of approach, each of which is an example of righteous living, while similarly, there are many ways to sin.

Most of us combine some techniques (or tendencies) of righteous living, with a few bad habits (or tendencies to sin), and thus our progress toward Salvation is rather slow.

But this is not a race toward the finish; it is, as I see it, an opportunity to learn many lessons, and while there are definitely certain criteria - or areas - in which ALL students must excel, there are also strengths (aptitudes) which some students will demonstrate in one way, while other students will show an altogether different proficiency.

Other flocks, all needing tending - and the Shepherd sees to it than even the lost sheep is/are found, and returned.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

[Faithfulservant]

Then.. who are the goats? There are so many things you are missing in your understanding of these scriptures you are posting..

The lost sheep are backslidden Christians..

The ones that call the name Lord and He knows them not are those call Him Lord but didnt repent and give their lives to Him..

Theres no halfway in this..

Its ALL or nothing,.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I'll go with this much ...

- but my understanding of the Bible is that not everyone who says, Lord, Lord, shall be [saved].

And John 10:16 speaks to me of several paths of approach, each of which is an example of righteous living, while similarly, there are many ways to sin.

Most of us combine some techniques (or tendencies) of righteous living, with a few bad habits (or tendencies to sin), and thus our progress toward Salvation is rather slow.

But this is not a race toward the finish; it is, as I see it, an opportunity to learn many lessons, and while there are definitely certain criteria - or areas - in which ALL students must excel, there are also strengths (aptitudes) which some students will demonstrate in one way, while other students will show an altogether different proficiency.



Other flocks, all needing tending - and the Shepherd sees to it than even the lost sheep is/are found, and returned.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12:32)

Revelation gives non Christians half a chance to have salvation. Granted it is a 50/50 chance. The book of life is opened at judgement day, and either one's name is in it or is not.

edit: Let me go one step further. In Christianity, there is no "lottery" or "chance" as to having salvation. If one accepts the gift of Christ's salvation, then all they have to concern self with is the "reward" they will have in heaven (based on the talents given them and how they invested in Christ's salvation for others).

That does not mean, how many won people over to Christ, persee, but rather what did one do with his life once accepting Christ...very important. Can't sit on one's butt after accepting salvation. Got to move and show Christ in living life and dealing with others...


Maybe that will help.

v/r

Joshua

[shadowman]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

narrow is the path and broad is the way to destruction.

well dread!

[AndrewX]

How does a mountain goat ascend a mountain? Does the goat meander, and wander along, going with the herd? (Sometimes, yes ...) Or does the goat turn, and go straight up the side, far outstripping the sheep?


The Goat is Capricorn ... consult your astrology guide. Or this Wikipedia page, on Capricorn, where it tells us:

Capricorn is associated with the Greek myth of the goat Amalthea who provided the infant Zeus with milk.

Notice, btw, what well-known figure among Christians, was born under this sign ... and consider that for esotericists, it is the SIGN OF INITIATION - such as that which Jesus underwent, or prepared for, in the desert, and completed on Mt. Tabor, just as earlier he was purified at the River Jordan.

No, things are NOT always "all or nothing," black and white. Sometimes, ideas get twisted around, and the GOAT becomes the symbol of evil, as PAN, the fawn, who was the God of shepherds and flocks (which seems ever so relevant here) ... becomes SATAN, and scares little children at night because they don't know any better.

But as for there being no halfway ... I would gently suggest that you might rethink this idea. Those who follow the ways of God perfectly, by definition, are perfect - while those who might err utterly and completely, would be totally ignorant ... yet I have never met someone in the latter category, and people in the former seem few and far between.

Thus, we are all - more or less, halfway. We can even seek to give our utmost, and this - is what makes us goats, rather than sheep. Christ cares for, and loves His sheep, every bit as much as the goats. The goats, He depends upon, and uses in order to reach the sheep. But would a goat go on, and on, and on ... about being set apart, either due to one's righteous ways of living, or because Christ is able to use them for God's Purpose?

... only in error, only in error.

So this flock over here, because they bear a certain brand, would be silly, silly sheep indeed, to scoff at their fellow sheep, just because those other sheep wore a different brand.

Methinks you have confused goats, with wolves ... and a "wolf in sheep's clothing," as Wile E. Coyote, is not a goat, not by a long shot.

Even that wolf in sheep's clothing, for Christ, is but a lamb that has strayed ... and if we do not as yet have the power, or the understanding, the love or the forgiveness, to bring that sheep back to the flock ... then I hope we will at least trust Christ, and let Him see to it that God's Plan is fulfilled.

I do.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by shadowman

well dread!

Can't have your cake and eat it too. Have to give up something in order to have a better thing, or simply keep what you have now, and give up what could be later.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

How does a mountain goat ascend a mountain? Does the goat meander, and wander along, going with the herd? (Sometimes, yes ...) Or does the goat turn, and go straight up the side, far outstripping the sheep?



The Goat is Capricorn ... consult your astrology guide. Or this Wikipedia page, on Capricorn, where it tells us:

Astrology has nothing to do with Christianity...not the way you are pulling things from so far out, just to attempt to make a point. BTW a "sea goat" (capricorn), does not exist.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Then.. who are the goats? There are so many things you are missing in your understanding of these scriptures you are posting..

The lost sheep are backslidden Christians..

The ones that call the name Lord and He knows them not are those call Him Lord but didnt repent and give their lives to Him..

Theres no halfway in this..

Its ALL or nothing,.

Sheep and goats:

Originally Posted by Matt 25

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[AndrewX]

LOL - I am truly amazed ... the golden CALF (Taurus), the promised LAMB/Ram (Aries), the FISHES (Oannes, Pisces) ... and now, the Water-Bearer, referred to in the Gospels by Christ Himself (Aquarius).

These are only the recent cycles. But no, you're right, only the last two have anything to do with Christianity as such, and for that matter, just the Fishes of Pisces.

So, you of the PISCES flock, nice to meet you.
Those of the Capricorn flock, the Goats, hope to work with you again soon ...

I can't even hold my own as an Aquarian atm, but then, I'm not quite alone in that, just experiencing the usual, a bit of instant karma.

Thanks for the post, Luna, that clears things up. But my point, is that things aren't so existentialist. And remember, MANY a Christian believes in Reincarnation, far more than you might realize. Don't tell me, oh, but that's not what Jesus taught. Prove it. Were you there?

This SALVATION we speak about, makes so much more sense (to me, and to a lot of people), if we are looking at things across multiple lifetimes. It is not the ONLY way to see it, nor is what is being said about righteousness and sin pure relativity....

Amazing how hard a bunch of people will FIGHT - for their hell, and the right to imagine other people IN that hell.

Ok, then. HAVE it. Just recall what the man said about "those who seek to be first" ...

- and don't be surprised who you find in `Heaven' when you finally get there, including some of the most unlikely of characters, who will say, "Hey, what took you so long!"

I can see the whole lot of you stomping your feet and shaking your fists, and screaming to God above, "But, how could you!!!"

and everyone just hears a big SIGHHHHHH

lol, that gets me - Dammit, I believe in Hell, and YOU CAN'T MAKE ME STOP BELIEVING IN IT!!!

oh! okay, okay, hands off, hands off ... I'll stop already!!!

Try and help somebody out, SEE the thanks I get ... oi vey

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

LOL - I am truly amazed ... the golden CALF (Taurus), the promised LAMB/Ram (Aries), the FISHES (Oannes, Pisces) ... and now, the Water-Bearer, referred to in the Gospels by Christ Himself (Aquarius).

oi vey

Sorry, you won't find it in the bible. Look as hard as you want, but that is not part of Biblia Christos.

What it might be is your or some one elses interpretation on things...

edit: we don't even know what month Jesus was born. Some say fall, some say winter, some say spring...NONE say Summer...

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Thanks for the post, Luna, that clears things up. But my point, is that things aren't so existentialist. And remember, MANY a Christian believes in Reincarnation, far more than you might realize. Don't tell me, oh, but that's not what Jesus taught. Prove it. Were you there?[/I]

Hi Andrew,

I think you missed the point of why I posted that, but nevermind. And next time you make a rhetorical statement like the above underlined, don't put an answer in my mouth for me.

For the record, it's not what Jesus taught, but what Jesus did.

luna

[Prober]

Okay, so to simplify...(Matthew 25)

Sheep love their neighbors as themselves and Goats don't.