Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives - Page 3

17th Angel · 11-06-2007, 01:04 PM

Muslim woman you are such a strong and independant woman and have intelligence.... which makes me baffle why you believe this steamy pile of bs lol... It doesn't matter for what or when... Or where... minor major... Whatever you don't freaking hit a woman.... If my brother in laws or father or some male in my family laid a freaking hand on any of the female members I'd remove his jaw. You -don't- freaking hit women.... Unless your a pussy... :\ lol pussys....

Muslimwoman · 11-06-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Unless your a pussy... :\ lol pussys....

LMAO 17th. If you read my long post (where I got carried away

) you will see near the bottom that I addressed this very issue. Muslim men that I meet all feel that anyone that hits their wife is a pussy. It is pride thing, they do not see hitting the weaker sex as a manly thing to do and accept that only cowards and bullies do this.

I am not trying to defend wife beating under any circumstances, hell if I saw a man really hit his wife you can be damn sure I would pick up something heavy and make him see what it feels like to be bullied. Yet if I see him hit her with a peacock feather I am unlikely to take the same action.

I was just trying to explain what this verse is actually telling us, it is about a process of punishment. The first being have a go at her, the second being hurt her pride by not sharing her bed for a month and lastly beat her with a toothbrush. I am not being flippant there, the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) when asked about this verse said you should beat your wife with this and held up a tooth cleaning stick (we still use them in Egypt, it is about 6 inches long and comes from a certain tree). How do you beat someone up with a toothbrush????

I liken it to the adultery issue. I would argue all day about the given punishment but whether it is lashes or stoning to death you would have to be humping naked in the town square to actually fulfil the requirements to receive the punishment. So too with this issue, to allow a husband to beat his wife with a toothbrush she would have to repeatedly refuse to stop being a tart, her husband would have to love her so much he was still prepared to forgive her and she would have rejected the advice of Allah, her husband, her family, friends and Imam. Unless she is mentally unstable (in which case you are not allowed to give punishments) no woman I have met would go this far, therefore there should never be a need for such action.

Look at this:

The Prophet (peace be on him) once, when angry with his servant, mentioned to him, saying, 'If it were not for the fear of retaliation on the Day of Resurrection, I would have beaten you with this miswak (tooth-cleaning stick)' [as reported by Ibn Majah and by Ibn Hibban, in his Sahih].

I already gave a quote where the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) asked the Muslim men 'would you beat your wife like your servant then lie with her at night?'. If the Prophet refused to even beat his servant with such a stick then how could it be ok to beat up your wife? It simply is not. It is yet another issue of Islam saying one thing and some Muslims using it to satify their moronic views and desires. However I am not going to sit and say the Quran does not say this, as it clearly does but with many issues its meaning needs to be understood.

See what I am saying?

17th Angel · 11-06-2007, 01:49 PM

Twas way too long for my ickle mind..... I just picked out bits and put them together... I am confident I got a clear picture.... lol..

I see what you are saying... But am still quite confused..

I would say the best thing to do is...

Stage 1:Have a word with her.... stage 2: have, a word with her... Stage 3: Have a word with her... Stage 4: Take a break.... Stage 5: have a word with her... Stage 6: leave. lol

be it a fist, a bat, a knife, a pole, a jelly baby, a cherry drop a peacock feather... It's still beating.... And what the freak is the point in beating someone with a feather anyway? Apart from making yourself look an idiot... :\ There is no room for any type of violence in this world.... In my eyes that is, espcially a person who claims to be of a god...

Muslimwoman · 11-06-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Stage 6: leave. lol

This is the bit we are trying to avoid. If it comes to it then yes we must divorce but every avenue should be searched before that. The first stage is to talk, not shout, not be angry but read the Quran, pray together and talk, explain why the beahviour is not appropriate. If need be bring in the families, the friends, the Imams. Unlike western societies where our privacy is paramount in Islamic society we see a problem in a marriage as something we should all help with and seek help for. You know it is easier for outsiders (ie those not directly involved) to see solutions and compromises we ourselves cannot see because we are so emotionally involved with the issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

And what the freak is the point in beating someone with a feather anyway?

Bingo. There is none, other than humiliation. It is not about hitting or violence, it is about making someone see their conduct is unacceptable. You would be hard pressed to hurt someone with a toothbrush but if my hubby hit my bum with one in front of his family I would die of shame (well knowing me I would pack my bags and demand to go home to mother but you get what I am saying).

17th Angel · 11-06-2007, 02:22 PM

But I mean there is no point lol.... Two, no three outcomes I can see from beating....

A: You get beat back worse
B: They simply leave you.... Who would want to stay around some prick who's solution is violence? lol....
C: They get the freaking boys in blue involved and you go down for battery/domestic violence.

FOUR! Four outcomes....
D: If you do use just a feather or something what is the point? It does nothing... Some cop comes up to me... See's me with weed... He isn't going to arrest me... Book me nothing.. But he is going to give me a beating.... With a feather.... That sure as hell is going to stop me doing it again lol..... Please ;\

Sean H. · 11-06-2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I gave the Quranic verse in green above, to show how it is being misused in this situation.

Ah sorry about that. I didn't see.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Muslim woman you are such a strong and independant woman and have intelligence.... which makes me baffle why you believe this steamy pile of bs lol... It doesn't matter for what or when... Or where... minor major... Whatever you don't freaking hit a woman.... If my brother in laws or father or some male in my family laid a freaking hand on any of the female members I'd remove his jaw. You -don't- freaking hit women.... Unless your a pussy... :\ lol pussys....

It's interesting because many people might look at that quote in a modern context when it wasn't given in a modern context.

Look at how the Arabs acted towards women before Muhammad came. They would do whatever they wanted to them. Hit them, beat them, humiliate them, and they could take as many wives as they wanted.

Compare that to Muhammad's social laws that he inculcated. Now, you have severe restrictions on all of these things. In fact look at some other quotes of the Qur'an where it talks about being just towards your wife. In fact the standard of how to treat your wife is very implicitly high. Muhammad's laws are a large step better than the ones in existence before he came.

I have a quote from my own religion that might be helpful to this discussion.

O SON OF BEAUTY!
By My spirit and by My favor! By My mercy and by My beauty! All that I have revealed unto thee with the tongue of power, and have written for thee with the pen of might, hath been in accordance with thy capacity and understanding, not with My state and the melody of My voice.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I believe that all the Messengers of God reveal to us what we are ready for at that point in time. They may not directly say higher standards of conduct because humanity as a whole can't bear it yet. At the same time, conditions change. Muhammad lived in the desert which was a rough environment all to its own, without prisons or organized means for policing either.

17th Angel · 11-06-2007, 03:04 PM

Wow Sean interesting, *goes to contemplate*

One other thing.... What religion are you sean? not that it matters I guess, but still.....

Muslimwoman · 11-06-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

But I mean there is no point lol.... Two, no three outcomes I can see from beating....

But you are thinking of beating in terms of hitting with violence and intent to cause harm. If I hit you with a 6" tooth stick on the bum would you be hurt? Would you call the police?

As Sean explained (well done Sean and thank you) these rules were set to reduce violence. The Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) would not even beat his sevant with a tooth stick. We know the Prophet was very angry with his servant but he feared Allah and His punishment for unjust violence. This is the lesson for us - violence is wrong.

People just see the one small thing 'beat your wife' and miss the bigger picture. It says DONT just beat your wife, talk to her, refuse to sleep with her for a full month - that tells us not to react with anger but to try to change a persons behaviour. Humiliation is a last resort, as you say a feather cannot hurt a person but it can humiliate them.

Look at the beggining of the verse, it says men are set a degree over women because they must care and provide for us - that is respect for women. Hell I can sit all day and watch soap operas if I want, all the responsibility for the family is on my husband. I owe loyalty and respect to my husband for his duties to the family. Should I repay all his loyalty and hard work by flirting with the butcher?

17th Angel · 11-06-2007, 03:30 PM

Ok kinda... KINDA get it...

Should you flirt with the butcher? No idea.... He got a nice ass?

Muslimwoman · 11-06-2007, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Should you flirt with the butcher? No idea.... He got a nice ass?

What would I be doing looking at his ass???? That is forbidden for me to do, for the very reason it stops all these problems in the first place.

That is a very misunderstood part of Islam. People think it is stupidly restrictive but if I know it is wrong for me to look and I don't look, there is no chance of me being tempted. It is all about protecting us from ourselves. I have a hubby if I want to look at such things

17th Angel · 11-06-2007, 03:47 PM

I know it maybe forbidden but surley people still do it... I mean eyes seriously do have a mind of their own... I sometimes could get in trouble with them.. I have mastered the skill of moving your eyes but not your neck... Takes a few years to perfect, but it is a skill I am proud of... Because it is something that... Just happens!

Muslimwoman · 11-06-2007, 04:10 PM

Of course it still happens, we are only human but the important thing is to try not to do it or at least feel ashamed when you do and try not to do it again.

One interesting thing I have noticed since my conversion is how I see other people. I can now appreciate the beauty of a young girl without feeling jealous and I can look at a handsome man and think 'his wife is lucky'. The urges change, what is important changes. Now if I happen to notice the butchers ass, purely by accident of course, I go and snog my hubby and thank Allah I have a good husband instead of flirting with the butcher. I have become so much more appreciative of what I have.

flowperson · 11-06-2007, 04:20 PM

I just love the colloquialism "snog".
It has such a deliciously salacious ring to it.

flow....

Muslimwoman · 11-06-2007, 04:22 PM

It is one of my favourites too. I wish I hadn't mentioned it though, I haven't seen my hubby for months now and he is just so snoggable.

wil · 11-06-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Ok kinda... KINDA get it...

Should you flirt with the butcher? No idea.... He got a nice ass?

Namaste 17th, sometimes I just don't understand your questions. As I see it, if one were going to the butcher to select a nice cut of rump round roast, I would think the next question would be whether it were cut from cow, goat, mule or ass. And while I do think it a good cut of meat, not the best choice of animal; ass has a notoriously tough rump from sacrificially taking the surrogate beatings. But despite all the above and the fact that I am a vegetarian, if my wife were headed to the butcher to bring this home, I would expect her to check out the ass prior to purchase of same.

And thank you MW, providing all sides of the discussion, a commentary on the OP, clips from pro and con, and your understanding. I'd expect no less from you and appreciate it.