Scientific spiritulaity- the future of relegion-- what do you think?

[Faithfulservant]

Well if meditation was good enough for Jesus and St Francis of Assisi its good enough for me. At St Francis's sanctuary in Assisi there is even the exact spot that St Francis laid in meditative contemplation and direct communion with GOD.

-You missed my point. I meditate on God all the time.. I do it because Jesus did it.. Who is the example I try to live by.

Haven't got the time to time to sort out the links for you on this one but I vagely remember a BBC programme having something to do with the original release from the Pope about eastern spiritual practices which of course a lot of complementary therapies/medicine comes from. Shiatsu, Acupuncture etc predates Christianity by 1,000's of years and so it begs the question why should the church of Rome hold back our access to the self healing process when Jesus was a healer himself? Some say some can heal by faith alone but I would say positive thought which of course is a faith in itself is part of that process.

-I am not Catholic and do not follow the Pope or what he says. I believe in healing through prayer and annointing of oils. Jesus however is the healer and we are the vessels in which he works through. So the glory goes to him and not ourselves. I believe that God made everything just so in this world. If acupuncture works then God allowed it to be so.. If Homeopathy works then God made it so..Do not make the mistake of linking Rome to all Christianity. God put everything on this earth for a purpose.. He is the only voice I listen to.

Another interesting fact the Lost Gospels state that Jesus also worked with colour. Mr Henry Sike, Professor of Oriental Languages at Cambridge (1697) claimed that from La Brosse's Persic Lexicon that Jesus practised the trade of a dyer, and his working a miracle with colours; from whence the Persian dyers honour him as their patron and call a dye-house the shop of Christ. We also know that colour healing was practised in ancient Egypt.

-I do not know enough about this to comment but I agree that certain colors bring about certain emotions. We have our senses for a reason.. I also believe that certain scents bring about certain results.. Your comment earlier in the thread was made without truly knowing what you were talking about.. I just felt it needed to be cleared up. I do not have a a burning compulsion to read the lost gospels since I do not believe they are inspired by the Holy Spirit so I cannot comment on what they say. I do not doubt that you have read them I am just not impressed with what they have to say and whatever they say has no merit on my beliefs.

[Blue]

-Peace Love Happiness Security Joy Comfort Longsuffering Confidence Assurance .......the list goes on.
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And you think these matters are not attainable for someone without your faith? Why would you proclaim your faith as true for yourself and a pathway for others, as this implies?

These are qualities you find in your faith, and that is excellent. I am not criticising that, or you, but, if I may say so, you are implying these things are not possible for someone who doesnot believe as you do, and that impinges upon others.

The most unhappy people I have met have unfortunately always suffered from many delusional states, and I fear very much what such blind faith can do to people. The first thing that happens is that they put all their behaviours down to their God. That becomes the excuse for their behaviours instead of reason and rationality. This is fine when they benefit others in tangible ways, but not when it means they insist they are right purely because they were directed by God and it produces harmful behaviours, as it so often does.

If you 'hear' God, and 'speak' to God, that is entirely your own concern, but as someone who has helped people with delusional problems, I would kindly suggest sometimes you question yourself a little more closely... It could be the Devil who speaks to you, or an AntiChrist, or just something that gives you personal satisfactions... but I hope you are clear, because people like myself will sometimes be likely to ask you how you know you are speaking to God and not someone or something else.

Remember, because you assert something, that doesn't in itself mean it is automatically true, even, but especially, for just yourself.

As to meditation, what does the "exact spot" St Francis was using to meditate upon have to do with anything? Does that make the 'spot' divine' or 'sacred' in some way? I remember from my readings that he was also very fond of sitting within nature and communing with forest creatures. Were those 'spots' sacred? The only thing that makes such 'spots' sacred is someone believing that they are... and that is not evidence.

There is no proof you hear the voice of God, there is only your affirmation that you do... and that is fine... but don't try to argue that is evidence of God, or that it proves somehow that God is real beyond yourself. To you, He exists as a voice speaking with you, within you. That's fine... but declaring that does not make it true beyond yourself.

I hear the mysterious and numinous in all natural settings and in the converse of real human beings, husbands wives and children, and that is far more satisfying to me. I would rather commune with a person, my friend, than a supernatural being who cannot even prove its existence beyond myself.

I hope your God never misleads you FaithfulServant... as He seems to over your misunderstanding of the Bible, which you seem to think is divinely inspired in some mysterious way. If it was, it would surely not be so contradictory? Gods are not supposed to contradict themselves... unless they are truly just human conceptions and constructs.

[Blue]

I wanted to mention your final comment in your reply to me:
You said: "...its not just someone thats telling me this... its God."

As an outsider, as I am sure you would agree I am, I have to say this appears very proudful. I thought that it was a sin to be overly proud, yet you declare this as a truth to us all.

How can anyone claim to others that they 'speak' for God? I'm afraid that is very over the top so far as I am concerned.

On what do you base this declaration to others... do you expect others to believe you, which seems to be the only possible conclusion, or are you really saying "I believe I am speaking what my God would want me to speak."?

The latter sounds much more reasonable, wouldn't you agree? I could accept that quite happily.

[Sacredstar]

Dear Blue

I have no doubt that faithfulyservant speaks and hears GOD, and sometimes GOD gives us messages to share with humanity and it is up to those who see or hear to decide for themselves if that message resonates with their hearts and soul.


And on pride

33“No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead he puts it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light.

'That which is a mystery shall no longer be so,
and that which has been veiled will now be revealed;
that which has been withdrawn will emerge into the light,
and all human kind shall see and together they shall rejoice.'

'There is nothing covered up now that will not be exposed. Nothing is secret that will not be revealed. Every secret you've kept will become known. What you have whispered in hidden places will be shouted from the housetops.' Jesus from the Gospel of Thomas

"I have reached the inner vision and through Thy spirit in me
I have heard the wondrous secret. Through Thy mystic insight
Thou hast caused a spring of knowledge to well within me a fountain of power pouring forth living waters a flood of love and all embracing wisdom like the splendour of eternal light"

From "The Book of Hymns" of the Dead Sea Scrolls

and so it IS


Also the quote from Clement 'on purity.

"all things are pure to the pure"

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

[Faithfulservant]

Hi Blue

And you think these matters are not attainable for someone without your faith? Why would you proclaim your faith as true for yourself and a pathway for others, as this implies?

-Did I say that? No.. Did I imply that? No.. I think you just look for reasons to argue. Im not proclaiming anything other than I love my God and I trust him completely, of course I want to share it with everyone.. because I know TRUE peace and TRUE joy.. from something that you cant get from this world.
But how could you know what Im talking about if you dont share my faith? So.. in fact your arguing with something you have no clue on.. Silly really.

These are qualities you find in your faith, and that is excellent. I am not criticising that, or you, but, if I may say so, you are implying these things are not possible for someone who doesnot believe as you do, and that impinges upon others.

-Im not saying it isnt possible to achieve these things for an unbeliever.. How can you understand the degree that I feel these things if you arent in my shoes? You cant so its really pointless to argue with me on them.

The most unhappy people I have met have unfortunately always suffered from many delusional states, and I fear very much what such blind faith can do to people. The first thing that happens is that they put all their behaviours down to their God. That becomes the excuse for their behaviours instead of reason and rationality. This is fine when they benefit others in tangible ways, but not when it means they insist they are right purely because they were directed by God and it produces harmful behaviours, as it so often does.

-Its a sad thing that people put their very human behaviors on God. Its not correct. Its easy to blame God for our shortcomings.. Should we do this? No.. Does every Christian do this? No.. Lol if anything Im humbling myself before my Lord telling him to forgive me my human weaknesses.

If you 'hear' God, and 'speak' to God, that is entirely your own concern, but as someone who has helped people with delusional problems, I would kindly suggest sometimes you question yourself a little more closely... It could be the Devil who speaks to you, or an AntiChrist, or just something that gives you personal satisfactions... but I hope you are clear, because people like myself will sometimes be likely to ask you how you know you are speaking to God and not someone or something else.

-lol the difference between knowing what God is saying and knowing what the devil is saying is all purely in the context of it.. If I have repented of a sin and I feel guilt from it still... thats not God thats the devil.. If Im feeling angry at someone who is insulting my God and feel the urge to strike back.. I know thats the devil.. If I feel love and understanding for those that hate my God.. I know thats God. If I feel peace from a sin that Ive committed.. I know thats God. You cant know what its like to communicate with God if you dont have the Holy Spirit.. which is how we communicate with God.. We communicate with him through prayer and reading his Word. If you would like to talk to God Id be more than happy to tell you how.

Remember, because you assert something, that doesn't in itself mean it is automatically true, even, but especially, for just yourself.

-Says who? You? Sorry I would listen to God well before I would listen to you who does not even know God.

As to meditation, what does the "exact spot" St Francis was using to meditate upon have to do with anything? Does that make the 'spot' divine' or 'sacred' in some way? I remember from my readings that he was also very fond of sitting within nature and communing with forest creatures. Were those 'spots' sacred? The only thing that makes such 'spots' sacred is someone believing that they are... and that is not evidence.

-I believe this is addressed to SS since I am not Catholic and do not recognize Catholic saints. I can meditate on his word anywhere even sitting on the toilet sorry for my crudeness but thats not exactly a divine spot.

There is no proof you hear the voice of God, there is only your affirmation that you do... and that is fine... but don't try to argue that is evidence of God, or that it proves somehow that God is real beyond yourself. To you, He exists as a voice speaking with you, within you. That's fine... but declaring that does not make it true beyond yourself.

-Im not trying to prove it to anyone.. Anyone can experience what I experience if they only believe that Jesus is the way and a desire to know God on a personal level. Do you know how many Christians claim to experience the exact same thing I do? So contrary to what you might think.. its a bit more than just "myself"

I hear the mysterious and numinous in all natural settings and in the converse of real human beings, husbands wives and children, and that is far more satisfying to me. I would rather commune with a person, my friend, than a supernatural being who cannot even prove its existence beyond myself.

-He doesnt have to prove himself to you.. But have you ever asked him to? Have you ever asked him if he was really there? You might be surprised.. If he knocks are you going to answer? And trust me I commune with my kids on a daily basis and feel no such loss for that fact either.. Its enriched even more so because when I pray with my Children its told to us in the bible that if 2 or more are gathered in his name, (Jesus) he is present. What a beautiful thing to know.

I hope your God never misleads you FaithfulServant... as He seems to over your misunderstanding of the Bible, which you seem to think is divinely inspired in some mysterious way. If it was, it would surely not be so contradictory? Gods are not supposed to contradict themselves... unless they are truly just human conceptions and constructs.

-Ive been a Christian since I was 3 years old.. Ive never once been let down despite the thousands of times Ive let Him down. I know the bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit because it says so... I know that the more I read the more im changed for the better.. the more I feel those things I mentioned in the other post. When the word is interpreted by the Spirit it cannot be contradicted.. Your version of truth is very limited compared to the Spirit's truth. We are told to watch out for scoffers in the last day.. that there would be many of them.. We are also told that we will be hated because they hated Jesus first. Thats ok.. If you scoff and mock and hate me because of my faith.. its just makes me love you more and pray for you more.. and what better way to get the truth across is if you have someone gunning for you in heaven

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Blue

I wanted to mention your final comment in your reply to me:
You said: "...its not just someone thats telling me this... its God."

As an outsider, as I am sure you would agree I am, I have to say this appears very proudful. I thought that it was a sin to be overly proud, yet you declare this as a truth to us all.

How can anyone claim to others that they 'speak' for God? I'm afraid that is very over the top so far as I am concerned.

On what do you base this declaration to others... do you expect others to believe you, which seems to be the only possible conclusion, or are you really saying "I believe I am speaking what my God would want me to speak."?

The latter sounds much more reasonable, wouldn't you agree? I could accept that quite happily.

God did tell me through his word.. He would tell you this too if you would read it in the Spirit.. the offer still stands if you want to know how.

[Blue]

It may be helpful, FaithfulServant, to consider Hoffer's words:

""A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"

(Hoffer.)

What do you think?

[Ciel]

Blue,
You percieve only "envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty."

And Faithful servant promotes only love.

Where love lives so does God.

Is it not time to drop this role you play of inquisitor.
And allow others their truth.

[Ciel]

Faithful servant,
Your words speak of the celebration and love of God in your life.
Of joy and trust, It is beyond comparison. And full of life and spirit.
Yes there is the voice of God.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Blue

It may be helpful, FaithfulServant, to consider Hoffer's words:

""A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"

(Hoffer.)

What do you think?

2 Samuel 22: 31 As for God, His way is perfect; The word of the Lord is proven; He is a shield to all who trust in Him. "For who is God, except the Lord? And who is a rock, except our God? God is my strength and power, And He makes my way perfect.

Psalms 18:2The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer; My God, my strength, in whom I will trust; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust in the Lord Than to put confidence in man.

Proverbs 3:5 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;

What do YOU think?

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by Ciel

Faithful servant,
Your words speak of the celebration and love of God in your life.
Of joy and trust, It is beyond comparison. And full of life and spirit.
Yes there is the voice of God.

Amen and Praise God.

[Ciel]

Faithful servant,
As another posted a recent reminder;

Love is not arrogant. Love is not conceited or puffed up with pride, does not elevate oneself above others, does not lord it over others.

God speaks through many, it is only through understanding of self that one understands the words of God. In this is humility.

[Blue]

"A doctrine insulates the devout not only against the realities around them but also against their own selves. The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self"

Ciel and FS,

I do think you have failed to appreciate the meaning of the quotation.

Ciel... there was no suggestion that FS was being actually 'fanatical' or malicious in any way.

They were Hoffer's strong words for the mindset that just fails to question Faith at a personal level.

FaithfulServant proves the point by posting some Biblical quotations as if they contain universal truths, without any reasoning at all so far as I could see.

I would just humbly suggest that if they constitute answers to Hoffer's point about blind faith, you demonstrate how that can be.

I only ask people to rightfully(value judgement!) question themselves, and stop speaking as if they are pronoucing universal truths.
All I ask is that they never stop questioning their personal validations. I think the Gnostic Gospels concerning the words of Jesus (Philip and Thomas) demonstrate the very same attitude. Blind faith is not what the Lord asked of anyone!

Samuel, Psalms and Proverbs prove nothing. They are not objective, they are poetic affective expressions given value by the writers and the readers from a personal standpoint... they also demand the pre-cognition and background of an affective doctrinal and dogmatic base from which they were written, and have been subsequently read.

Those are the facts. They have nothing to do with my requests that those who exhibit blind faith should question their validations constantly, if their faith is to be worth anything, especially in Christian traditions with respect for the purported words of Jesus of Nazareth.

Does not the traditional 'Creed' in that religion say " I believe" in the
the Church, the Holy Ghost, the Resurrection of the Body, etc... as a matter of doctrine... not 'truth'? That is assumed... and nearly never questioned. I politely ask that it should be questioned, not by me, but by the believers proselytising their faith as 'truth'.

Apologies if this all seems rather strongly worded, but I have endeavoured to state a view rationally and clearly, which like many Bishops in many Churches today also feel is important.... a 'knowing' faith is far stronger than a blind faith... or one that refuses to even face different major Faiths as also possibly having 'faith' of equal value.

This Area of our Community is about 'Belief and Spirituality' and long may we question and seek answers we find more satisfying than unquestioning 'faith' - yes... even if your faith is made more secure and satisfying by being questioned by yourself. That I would truly admire in anyone.

[Faithfulservant]

Hello Blue.. I do not recognize the books of Thomas and Phillip so they dont mean anything to me. I am not compelled to read them I do not feel that they represent the Spirit of Truth because they are used by religions that teach contrary to the Holy Bible.

Thanks for trying though.. My faith has been shaken by more insidious people than you.. once but never again. The only time my faith has been shaken is when I didnt know the Word for myself. If I can have so much peace and certainty from something why would you want me to question that faith? What is really your purpose? Is it even YOUR purpose or something elses? I believe you need to question your motives, Blue.

It comes to mind... plucking the wings from butterflies.

[Ciel]

Dear Blue,

There is no question. There is only love.