Scientology 101.....

[Vajradhara]

Namaste GP,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by gp1628

Because both declare the arguments of the other to be worthless. A logician considers the opinions of the crowd to be a fallacy. A diplomacist considers logic arguments a fallacy when it doesnt change the opinions of the crowd.

i think you are confusing some terms or simply making them up to describe the situation. every being uses logic, you are using it here to explain why you dislike using logic in a discussion. you use logic when you are deciding which brand of dishwashing detergent to use, when you determine which brand of motor vehicle to purchase, which pair of shoes to wear on any given occassion yet when it comes to discussing $cientology you would prefer not to discuss it logically.

the definition of a logical fallacy doesn't depend on whom is doing the speaking nor their particular position they adopt within the context of a formal debate. a fallacy is a fallacy and arguments based on fallacies are, by definition, fallacious.

the implication that a pursuasive argument is the only valid form of argument is rather dubious since it is clear that an argument can have a purpose other than persuasion.

Well at least you have met some in real life. Its not worth much otherwise.

indeed.

interestingly, none of the OTVIII that i know are at cause over MEST.

More along the line that its generally of the opinion outside a religion that the higher attainers within the religion are privy to non-public learnings.

i thought that such was what you were referring to.

metta,

~v

[17th Angel]

Anyone know where I can find out more about L. Ron Hubbard's parents?

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Anyone know where I can find out more about L. Ron Hubbard's parents?

Bare Faced Messiah has some information on them.

metta,

~v

[17th Angel]

My thanks

[17th Angel]

I think my research of Scientology is coming to an end, in my opinion it is a very complicated thing lol... Most fo the time I feel as if LRH is just tying words together instead of writing sentences... Some parts I am like "what the hells is he talking about!"

From the first impression (quite commmon for most religions or hobbies or 'things') It looked quite good, anti drug campaigns, support of human rights, support to those around the world that need it, that's all cool I am down with that. But within Scientology you -have- to take courses... To improve and advance.. Again yeah that is logical I am cool with that too.. Just the books you learn from seem to not add up personally in my opinion. Some times I cannot make heads or tails of some chapters in books.

And from all the Scientologists I have met I don't honestly believe many of them know what the hells is going on.

The major thing I am concerned with, the main idea is to become 'clear' which is to have total recall, better sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste and so on... The book even says a clear will get improved vision and over time he will gain perfect sight again... So why have I met clears with glasses? And one in particular with quite a thick pair of glasses? He's improved? From what? Blindness?

I also put one Clear (otIII) to the test and asked her over the phone to tell me what I was wearing the first day I came into their church and asked questions about what did I smell like what aftershave was I wearing and so on and so forth... I am concerned because she didn't know.. But she has total recall?

Not 100% sure, but I feel my studies are soon to come to an end. If this is the real deal then I guess my IQ is too inferior to handle it, as I cannot fathom most of it... I get looking after one another and being good to one another and so on, but Dianetics... Ok... I'll say it lol to me is gibberish lol...

Anyway that's my update.

And Tommy Davis is still my hero! lol.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Alex P,

thanks for the update.

did you get a chance to meet any OT's in person?
when a being becomes an OTVIII they are said to "be at Cause over MEST".

that's Scilon for "they can use their mind to manipulate Matter, Energy, Space and Time." they can fly, teleport, cure all illnesses, journey to other planets, become immortal and so on... indeed, that is how we know that Venus has a busy train system, LRH was nearly run over there by a locomotive and complained about how busy it all was.

yet... as you noticed with your Clear <your test was a variation of the test that the first Clear underwent, and failed>, the claimed powers and abilities do not manifest and the beings on The Bridge cannot provide any evidence that they are at Cause over anything let alone MEST. they are clearly not immortal and die of the same ailments as every other human.

there is a reason that the writings, the Source, seems rather disjointed and it mostly has to do with LRH using amphetamines and drinking rum. he wrote his first wife, Mary Sue, about how the pills made him all loopy and whacked out when he had first gone to sea with the Sea Org.

metta,

~v

[17th Angel]

So it isn't 'just me' ? Thank goodness for that... I was listening to the audio books to make it easier to learn.. But, I just cannot grasp most of it :\ Like yeah, I understand the basics and their belife system. but you go into detail and you've freaking lost me.

I met a few OT's but not a lvl VIII The highest I have come into contact with is a V. have only tested as I previously said an OTIII... And found their memory to be worse than mine as I can clearly recall what they were wearing. I cannot picture it as they say.. I never picture anything, one of the examples they give in Dianetics think of a rose, and you most likely will see a rose, it's stem it's thorns, petals and so on.... I see nada... I -know- what a rose looks like but I do not see the rose.. Such as I knew what she was wearing, although I didn't see it in my head I just know what it was.

So this is where my concern stems from... I then thought screw it, I am going to take the risk and read the OTIII book... Remembering you will drop dead if you read this material when you're not ready for it... Alas... Here I am a pre-clear, typing and living infront of your very eyes. A miracle.

It is a shame... I am to a degree upset... As I really thought I was going to learn and benefit from my research of this group, like I've taken from everything I have studied at least something... At this point, (it is late at night and not being a clear or being that alert I cannot truly recall as of now.) I cannot think of one thing that I have come away with as good that I haven't already learnt...

I am gonna stick to just his mission Earth books lol I like them. And they are more my level

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Alex P,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Alex P

So it isn't 'just me' ? Thank goodness for that... I was listening to the audio books to make it easier to learn.. But, I just cannot grasp most of it :\ Like yeah, I understand the basics and their belife system. but you go into detail and you've freaking lost me.

nope, it's not just you it would appear that your ability to follow an ideas logical progression is not impaired in the least

what you experienced and rejected was a classic mind control technique whereby the adherent has to create a dichotomy between what they intersubjectively know and what they are told they are supposed to know. it can be a very powerful technique used against beings that have already accepted the primary axiom namely that the leader is unquestionably correct regarding every field to which they turn their attention.

I met a few OT's but not a lvl VIII The highest I have come into contact with is a V. have only tested as I previously said an OTIII... And found their memory to be worse than mine as I can clearly recall what they were wearing.

indeed it seems clear that ones memory is completely unaffected by $cientology training despite it's heavy insistence upon memorization.

I cannot picture it as they say.. I never picture anything, one of the examples they give in Dianetics think of a rose, and you most likely will see a rose, it's stem it's thorns, petals and so on.... I see nada... I -know- what a rose looks like but I do not see the rose.. Such as I knew what she was wearing, although I didn't see it in my head I just know what it was.

very interesting.. i'm trying that myself and it seems that i'm rather like you.. i don't see a rose in my minds eye.. i have to choose to invoke its image.. when i hear the term "rose" is more like some sort of dictionary... attributes and interactions but it seems to stimulate my olfactory sense more than my visual sense. a fascinating topic for it's own thread

So this is where my concern stems from... I then thought screw it, I am going to take the risk and read the OTIII book... Remembering you will drop dead if you read this material when you're not ready for it... Alas... Here I am a pre-clear, typing and living infront of your very eyes. A miracle.

well.. you could be mad <mentally unstable> now... it's going to kill you or drive you mad.... that said, it's a miracle that happens so frequently as to be unmiraculous at this point.

It is a shame... I am to a degree upset... As I really thought I was going to learn and benefit from my research of this group, like I've taken from everything I have studied at least something... At this point, (it is late at night and not being a clear or being that alert I cannot truly recall as of now.) I cannot think of one thing that I have come away with as good that I haven't already learnt...

I am gonna stick to just his mission Earth books lol I like them. And they are more my level

there are parts of $cientology that work. those parts were taken from other systems of thought, religious practice and psychology so if you've been studying these things you've come across them in their pristine state, so to speak, which is always more satisfying than a derivative, for me at any rate.

metta,

~v

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

very interesting.. i'm trying that myself and it seems that i'm rather like you.. i don't see a rose in my minds eye.. i have to choose to invoke its image.. when i hear the term "rose" is more like some sort of dictionary... attributes and interactions but it seems to stimulate my olfactory sense more than my visual sense. a fascinating topic for it's own thread

Almost time to go home! So haven't time to reply to the majority of this post, thank you however for your reply... I agree this would make for a good thread as it seems to fascinate my beloved, she tends to frequently test and be amazed at what I can recall... Using visual tools of the eyes and then listing in the mind where everything is... I then when on look back will go through this list so yeah there were five cracks in the floor twenty tiles six books in the far corner the colour of them and their titles in left to right.... An so on... And it isn't because I can see the room, it is just I know what is in the room I've physically been there I have seen it, so I know it's there... I am glad to find someone else who does the same! She made me feel slightly like an oddball for not being able to "see" the room or the images.. No matter what I try I cannot make an image in my mind...

[Vajradhara]

here's a great, though lenghty, article regarding the current state of $cientology from two of the most senior members that have recently fled the group and have revealed the innermost workings, as it were, of the RTC and David Miscavage in particular.

Scientology: The Truth Rundown, Part 1 of 3 in a special report on the Church of Scientology - St. Petersburg Times

metta,

~v

[Francis king]

cheers for the link, Vaj