Scientology

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

The first one. I edited my post previously to you asking.

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Does that fact that Hittler was trying to ethnically cleanse the human race not obvious to this?

PM, by your logic anybody who misuses a scientific theory for their own twisted end invalidates that theory.

So we might also conclude that since people have misused Jesus and the Bible to further their twisted ends invalidates these as well.

Congratulations PM. You've managed to destroy both science and religion in one thread. Even for you that is quite an overachievement.

[Postmaster]

Ive never said religion doesnt do this and is quite opposite to my views.

CZ you really have a way of putting things into my words. Always seems to be you. I dont know if you have some ego issues but it seems that way.

Theres nothing that I prefer more then discussion. Im not trying to dominate a forum with my ideas, although it may seem like this to you. Last time I have to defend myself cause i was assumed to be a biggot.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Ive never said religion doesnt do this and is quite opposite to my views.

So that I don't put words in your mouth, could you please clarify this for me then...

1. Is a scientific theory proven false if anybody uses it as a justification for acts of crime, violence or evil?

2. Is a religion proven false if anybody uses it as a justification for acts of crime, violence or evil?

3. What in this world hasn't been used as a justification for acts of crime, violence or evil?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste alex,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Alex P

Vajrad lol what is with all the '$' signs are you legion? lol.

$cientology is a trademark and if you use it without permission you can be sued. given their stated tactics of using the courts to stop their detractors, it's simply easier for me to use such misspellings.

And the "tech" that is sold in scientology is like the bs, blessings, prayers, baptisims and other "services" which other religions supply. Replace tech for services... Majority of religions are tax exempt money making con artists... Selling you insurances you don't need.

well.. of course... but that is not what they think nor what they call it. further, the Tech includes all the established psychological techniques and principles which others pioneered. in short, any of the "services" that $cientology sells are called "Tech" to distinguish them from what other religions offer.

I don't think they should be allowed to -ban- scientology... Where is freedom? If that is what people want to follow then that should be allowed... If the country was to ban islam, christianity or another religion that would cause outrage of human rights being violated! Right?

i agree. $cientology is, in and of itself, simply a fringe alien cult... the criminal orgnization of the RTC (Religious Technology Center) which seeks to subvert laws and governments, needs to be stopped, banned, outlawed or whatever is the apropos action to prohibit a criminal organization from operation.

one of the main difficulties in this discussion arises due to the cults own secret nature which makes it difficult, if not impossible, for those beings not well studied on the cult to discern the different branches and practices of the cult.

they promote their teachings through all manner of front companies which disavow any link with $cientology even though they may be directly linked to the RTC or any other front organization. LRH was an exceedingly successful conman which, if you've ever heard him speak or seen his physical form, seems rather surprising.

To me I think they're all bs.... And there is just the same amount of truth/accuracy/whatever in scientology as any other...

yet.. there isn't. they actively promote things which everyone, and i mean this in a general way, knows is wrong. for instance, $cientology claims that smoking cigarettes reduces the chance for cancer and, in some cases, can cure it.

it's not that their alien cult beliefs are any more or less true, for most people that is hardly ever part of the discussion anyways.. it's always about the mind control, money fleecing, kill those that disagree with us parts... but since most conversations about religions tend to be along emotional lines the conversation is rarely advanced in public discourse save things like this wherein beings are able to exercise more thought than emotion given the non-real time nature of the discussion.

It is simply not just to ban one religion, they all have the same face value lol You can't, simply can't say "You are NOT allowed to believe this!!!"

i agree on that level.. a being can beleive whatever they want. it is when the organization becomes criminal that the organization must be disbanned and confronted. it's hard to seperate the organization from the beliefs in many cases but that is what must be done to properly address the issue of $cientology and why they must be opposed.

metta,

~v

[Postmaster]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

So that I don't put words in your mouth, could you please clarify this for me then...

1. Is a scientific theory proven false if anybody uses it as a justification for acts of crime, violence or evil?

2. Is a religion proven false if anybody uses it as a justification for acts of crime, violence or evil?

3. What in this world hasn't been used as a justification for acts of crime, violence or evil?

This is why I love discussion so much these answers can be discovered but on the other end if I didn’t have an opinion at all I’d be a complete cabbage. I have yet to demonstrate hostility (which I used to when I first started using the forum) but I think hostility (or inciting) would be good grounds for you to kick in your concerns about me. I would much appreciate in these kinds of discussions for you to try explaining another opinion which I would like to read and learn from.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

This is why I love discussion so much these answers can be discovered but on the other end if I didn’t have an opinion at all I’d be a complete cabbage. I have yet to demonstrate hostility (which I used to when I first started using the forum) but I think hostility (or inciting) would be good grounds for you to kick in your concerns about me. I would much appreciate in these kinds of discussions for you to try explaining another opinion which I would like to read and learn from.

I have no idea what you just said. But I can't help notice that you didn't answer my questions.

[Postmaster]

I dont know the answers to your questions. But I do hold opinions as we all do. And all im saying is.. before you dig into me I think it be better if it was because im being hostile or inciting hostility. If not I'd just apprecaite your opinion against mine so I can learn your point of view.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I dont know the answers to your questions.

Pardon me.

It sounded as if you had said that Hitler's belief in evolution (and it's misapplication in the realm of social engineering) had invalidated Darwin's theory of evolution.

I must have been mistaken.

[Postmaster]

Thats ok I can see why you might assume that I don't invalidate Darwins theory of evolution in the slightest. I will clearly state of how fond Iam with Darwins theory of evolution and how its use in biology makes Urika sense.

There is no contradiction with what I said either.

I said hitler used eugenics and darwinism to support Nazi ideology.

And I say I agree with Darwins theory of evolution

And I also say I dont agree with Nazi ideology.

Isnt this why this forum is so great...

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

And I also say I dont agree with Nazi ideology. Isnt this why this forum is so great...

Nazi's are gross!

Yucko!

Group hug.

Watch those hands.

[Postmaster]

Group hug.... Its ok, its tradition for me to place my hands there. Joke haha

[Eudaimonist]

Originally Posted by wil

Of the scientologists I know it is a system of self improvement classes.

Personal Responsibility, health, motivation....you'll find a bunch of businessmen and I'd say a largely successful healthy group of people.

While it has its bizarre side many benefit physcially, spritually and financialy from their association.

Sure, and the same thing could be said of Amway.

I was an Amway network marketer two decades ago for about a year and a half. I believe that I benefitted from their self-improvement concepts, and their energetic rallies. (Like Scientology, all of Amway's self-improvement concepts were taken from established psychological sources.) I felt more motivated and self-responsible. My sense of life was brighter and more optimistic. I felt like I could achieve anything. I had spent more money on Amway than I had made back, but I'm willing to consider that fair payment for what I had gained.

However, I'm happy I left Amway when I did. For all the positives, Amway has (IMO) a way of stealing your soul. It is very easy to become lost as a self-determining individual in all that self-improvement. The object (made quite clear by Dexter Yager and other high-level marketers) is to become an obedient clone of the ideal Amway marketer, and not your own freewilled person. Yes, you might become fantastically wealthy and successful -- but you would be a bird in a cage of gold.

This is the hidden trap. If you are offered something immensely good, you might not realize that there is a terrible price to pay somewhere down the line.


eudaimonia,

Mark

[wil]

in the news

Scientology: The Truth Rundown, Part 1 of 3 in a special report on the Church of Scientology - St. Petersburg Times

Investigating the Church of Scientology | Interfaith Voices

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Mark,

thank you for the post. sorry for the tardy reply.

Originally Posted by Eudaimonist

Sure, and the same thing could be said of Amway.

I was an Amway network marketer two decades ago for about a year and a half. I believe that I benefitted from their self-improvement concepts, and their energetic rallies. (Like Scientology, all of Amway's self-improvement concepts were taken from established psychological sources.) I felt more motivated and self-responsible. My sense of life was brighter and more optimistic. I felt like I could achieve anything. I had spent more money on Amway than I had made back, but I'm willing to consider that fair payment for what I had gained.

that in an interesting insight... i didn't realize that Amway engaged in that sort of behavior but then i've only known one person that was involved in Amway... they had a basement full of stuff which they kept trying to sell to their friends... it made me, for the first time, actually consider the question of friendship and what it actually meant... did it mean that adult friends (i met these folks when i was a youth) were there simply to sell things to each other? it struck me as quite a bit different than how my friendships were, based on mutual interests and a level of intellectual compatibility.

However, I'm happy I left Amway when I did. For all the positives, Amway has (IMO) a way of stealing your soul. It is very easy to become lost as a self-determining individual in all that self-improvement. The object (made quite clear by Dexter Yager and other high-level marketers) is to become an obedient clone of the ideal Amway marketer, and not your own freewilled person. Yes, you might become fantastically wealthy and successful -- but you would be a bird in a cage of gold.

This is the hidden trap. If you are offered something immensely good, you might not realize that there is a terrible price to pay somewhere down the line.


eudaimonia,

Mark

i think that you are spot on here, Mark. there are several reasons for this, i'm sure, not least of which is the penchant for most beings to seek immediate gratification whilst ignoring the potential long term consequences... this is probably evolutionary behavior which we are still seeking to overcome in some sense.

one of the subtle inducements of $cientology is the tapping into the altruistic nature that most beings have, as you make your way along The Bridge to Total Freedom (a more compelling example of Newspeak one is not likely to find) you are increasingly let in on the *real* secret and of the dire importance of "the work" and "the mission" to save humanity. indeed $cientology inculcates the belief that $cientologists and $cientologists alone are able to help people in distress... no other being on the planet is able to do so. Tom Crui$e revealed this in the much ballyhooed video wherein he said that "when a Scientologist passes by a car accident they stop because they know they are the only ones that can help the victims."

of course abumulance chasing has a rather unsavory reputation and the indication that $cientology is willing to go after some of the most vulnerable in socieity is a disturbing reminder of their real agenda.

as with most cults, the ordinary members have no idea or participation in any of these sorts of things.. they are sincere and practice the teachings to the best of their ability convicted of their calling. it makes these discussions tricky in person as $cientologists are trained in a tactic they call "bull baiting" which is designed to insult a person or intimidate them until they angirly respond and can be prosecuted... you have to sit through hours and hours and hours in a room of 12 people that all yell and scream the worst things they can imagine at you... you pass the test when you can not cause the needle on the e-meter to move.

needless to say, such techniques are well known mind/thought controlling techniques which doesn't make helping ex-$cientologists any easier, i should say. you have to be able to relate to their paradigm to have effective communications, using their terminology and helping them help themselves out of the terrible trap they've fallen into.

metta,

~v

(Declared SP)

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by wil

in the news

Scientology: The Truth Rundown, Part 1 of 3 in a special report on the Church of Scientology - St. Petersburg Times

Investigating the Church of Scientology | Interfaith Voices

Namaste Wil,

Thank you for the post.

The St. Petersburg article was really well done, in my view. I would have liked to have seen more of a focus on some of the mythos of the cult such as the manner of LRH's death, the toxicology report and the current state of the RTC, its board and chairmanship etc. but overall i like it.

have you watched all three parts yet? if so, what is your view on the reporting itself and the content of the report?

metta,

~v