Sects among the Ummah

[wolfgangguntherson]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Indeed, I doubt many Baha'is would regard themselves as a sect of Islam, but I sometimes wonder if the hostility towards the Baha'is from within Islam has a parallel with Christian attitudes to Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.

Possibly. I don't know much about Jehovah's Witness history, but I do know at the begining of Mormon history there was a lot of violence and persecution against them. In the last 100 years, however, they have largely integrated into the mainstream. There is still some suspicion from more conservative Chrisitian quarters, but most people think of them as a fairly benign Chrisitian denomination.

Wolfgang

[Radunzel]

Yeah both Bahais and Babism (which is vastly difference despite bahais saying otherwise) are islamic sects because they are both based in shia oral law

[wolfgangguntherson]

Originally Posted by Radunzel

Yeah both Bahais and Babism (which is vastly difference despite bahais saying otherwise) are islamic sects because they are both based in shia oral law

Would you mind explaining what you mean by being "based in shia oral law"?

Wolfgang

[Abdullah]

Originally Posted by wolfgangguntherson

Pardon me is this is a little off topic, but i think it is relevant.

As the Baha'is consider themselves to be followers of a new Revelation and Messenger from God, can they really be considered a sect of Islam as opposed to a new faith?

Thanks!

Wolfgang

Hi wolfgang, wellcome!

The short answer is; no, for as the Quran makes clear that the Prophet [saw] is the last Prophet/Messenger of God and the Quran is the final revelation, then that is neccessarily known of the Islamic religion, thus any claim to Prophecy after the Prophet Muhamamd [saw] is heresy of the desbelief kind, hence Bahai's cannot be accepted as an Islamic sect

hope that helps

Peace

[Radunzel]

Sorry bad phrasing.. hadith is islamic oral law not based on the Quran .. the talmud to the torah if you will but you know that.. and bahai comes from shia islam..

FIN

[Dream]

Originally Posted by Brian

Indeed, I doubt many Baha'is would regard themselves as a sect of Islam, but I sometimes wonder if the hostility towards the Baha'is from within Islam has a parallel with Christian attitudes to Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses.

Correction. There is no hostility involved. We simply love them to death.

[wolfgangguntherson]

Originally Posted by Radunzel

Sorry bad phrasing.. hadith is islamic oral law not based on the Quran .. the talmud to the torah if you will but you know that.. and bahai comes from shia islam..

FIN

I think I see what you are saying. The founders of the Faith grew up in Shi'a society. But they claimed to bring a new revelation. Would you say that Christianity was a Jewish sect? Jesus grew up in Jewish society and claimed to bring a new revelation, much the same way that the Bab and Baha'u'llah claim to bring a new revelation.

Wolfgang

[Radunzel]

Originally Posted by wolfgangguntherson

I think I see what you are saying. The founders of the Faith grew up in Shi'a society. But they claimed to bring a new revelation. Would you say that Christianity was a Jewish sect? Jesus grew up in Jewish society and claimed to bring a new revelation, much the same way that the Bab and Baha'u'llah claim to bring a new revelation.

Wolfgang

ermmm no...

firstly i think we should destinquish between chrisitanity and the religion of Isa/Yehoshua (PBUH) as there is vast difference.. By religion i mean the name of the followers because obviously they are muslims =P


but i mean we should seperate pauline from ebionite
which are you arguing?


In my eyes Christianity IS a judaic sect that got far too out of hand..

(1) no where in the torah is the son of god coming.. Only the lineage of david.
(2) "think not that i come to destroy the law" Matthew 5:17/19
(3) Christianity in its current form didnt happen till paul thusly
(4) Making it vastly different to babism and to Baha'u'llah who where respectively self proclaimed prophets and a self procalimed DEVINE prophet.
(5) Baha'u'llah called himself a reincarnate of Isa ( no other prophet has said something of this scale and we know isa's second coming isnt true)
(6) isa denied divinity unlike Baha'u'llah (we can use either quran or injeel to prove this)
(7) Jesus never said he brought new revalation only was he giving interpreation to old law
(8) Baha'u'llah's prophecy was suspect as he was a babi follower who was alive at the time he was.. he knew what he said would bring. whilst Yehoshua was a rabbi
(9) The quran is a midquel by allah (swt) putting right the events which have been lost.

so whatever your stance on seal of the prophets why is there need for new faith when allah (swt) has proven the quran will be and has been untouched?

[wolfgangguntherson]

[QUOTE=Radunzel;201372]ermmm no...

firstly i think we should destinquish between chrisitanity and the religion of Isa/Yehoshua (PBUH) as there is vast difference.. By religion i mean the name of the followers because obviously they are muslims =P


but i mean we should seperate pauline from ebionite
which are you arguing?


In my eyes Christianity IS a judaic sect that got far too out of hand..


(4) Making it vastly different to babism and to Baha'u'llah who where respectively self proclaimed prophets and a self procalimed DEVINE prophet.

I'm not sure how the proclamation of either the Bab or Baha'u'llah is different from that of Muhammed. could you explain how they are different?

(5) Baha'u'llah called himself a reincarnate of Isa ( no other prophet has said something of this scale and we know isa's second coming isnt true)

Do you have a specific passage that you are refering to? Could you post this?

(6) isa denied divinity unlike Baha'u'llah (we can use either quran or injeel to prove this)

Again, could you provide more concrete evidence to support your position?

(7) Jesus never said he brought new revalation only was he giving interpreation to old law

Did Muhammed bring a new revelation? Why did he bring new laws?

(8) Baha'u'llah's prophecy was suspect as he was a babi follower who was alive at the time he was.. he knew what he said would bring. whilst Yehoshua was a rabbi

I'm not sure I'm following you on this one. Could you clarify?

(9) The quran is a midquel by allah (swt) putting right the events which have been lost.

How do we know this is actually the case? How do we know anything has been lost from the previous holy books, and that nothing has been lost from the Koran? Even if nothing has been lost, how do we know that God would not bring new rules and teachings that were more appropriate for mankind in a given time, especially as men who rise to influence within a faith exert their own influence on its teachings?

I am not trying to start an argument here...I'm just looking for more clarification.

Thank you,

Wolfgang

[Radunzel]

sorry about the long reply

right

if the original religion that was followed by jesus' pbuh followers stood today, indeed why would there have been a need for a new revelation.

next. prophet calling you to be more religious vs trinity son of god and faith over actions

think about it

Nothing has been lost from the quran as

A) the oldest version we have only contain punctuation difference..
b) The great shcism happened shortly after the death of mohammad Pbuh therefore neither would agree in a difference in the Quran.
c) the difference in creed in islam comes from oral law

Compare this with the battle of pauline vs ebionite doctrines as sunni shia and quranite still exist today..

on another note brother i dont think you can mention bahais and saying Quran is incomplete in the same post.

the revelation of mohammad pbuh was never new teachings because a central tennet of quran is that new laws where written into the old books to benfit people.. as you quite rightly say..

but still remains other than qibla and inheritance laws i cant really think of whats different.. (remember your not talking to a asunni or a shia, so i know where your coming from)

The whole impact of phropcey welllll... like if someone says a new phrophet is coming and hes got loads of followers after his death, then it was pretty much a no brainer that one of em was gonna say it.

[wolfgangguntherson]

Originally Posted by Radunzel

sorry about the long reply

right

if the original religion that was followed by jesus' pbuh followers stood today, indeed why would there have been a need for a new revelation.

next. prophet calling you to be more religious vs trinity son of god and faith over actions

think about it

Nothing has been lost from the quran as

A) the oldest version we have only contain punctuation difference..
b) The great shcism happened shortly after the death of mohammad Pbuh therefore neither would agree in a difference in the Quran.
c) the difference in creed in islam comes from oral law

Compare this with the battle of pauline vs ebionite doctrines as sunni shia and quranite still exist today..

on another note brother i dont think you can mention bahais and saying Quran is incomplete in the same post.

the revelation of mohammad pbuh was never new teachings because a central tennet of quran is that new laws where written into the old books to benfit people.. as you quite rightly say..

but still remains other than qibla and inheritance laws i cant really think of whats different.. (remember your not talking to a asunni or a shia, so i know where your coming from)

The whole impact of phropcey welllll... like if someone says a new phrophet is coming and hes got loads of followers after his death, then it was pretty much a no brainer that one of em was gonna say it.

I have to admit, it is difficult for me to follow a fair amount of what you are saying. I do see that you have not mentioned several of the claims you made regarding the founders of the Baha'i Faith that I asked for clarification on.

I think I am just going to let this one be for now. But I would reccomend you examine several sources on the Baha'i faith as I do not think the information you currently have is entirely accurate.

Try the following : Baha'i Explorer or check wikipedia.

Peace!

Wolfgang