Selfishness

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Aha! Do unto others...Remember?

Indeed. You wish me to judge you, Juan? And pray tell, why is that?

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Considering I have been, now I am waiting for you to catch up.

Pots and kettles, isn't that why you say, Juan? Sometimes, we worry far too much about others ... except, `worry' isn't quite it, is it? Hmmm ...

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Yeah, I've heard that line from a couple of different sources. All of which I question..."which god?"

Not a God that plays favorites, if that's what you're after. NO GOD who says, "these people" are better than "those people." No, I mean a God Greater than a lesser being, which is still subject to whim, favor, preference, and power-plays. I mean, THAT ONE - Who Knows ALL Beings, as ONE with IT (`Him/Her/whatever').

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Could it not be you are the presumptuous one? I question because I think for myself. If those thoughts are not in line with yours, given to you by whatever choice of book you read today, that does not mean I am wrong. At least my thoughts are my own, and I will answer for them personally.

No, juan. That will not work. My thought, are my own. We can "swallow, hook, line & sinker" anything we read, hear or believe. Yet any idiot can figure out ... what would have happened had the Axis Powers gained the atomic bomb. Read some history books if you feel so inclined. Just let you imagination run wild. Really, it won't hurt you ...

So, I do not presume. I KNOW.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Perhaps. Perhaps not. It is all moot now.

NO, juan. It is NOT "moot now." The World War is NOT over. We seem to be doing so well, but did you realize, that in 1972, "President" Bush pulled the United States OUT of the ABM Treaty? This, the anti-ballistic missile treaty, is what forbade us to continue developing atomic bombs, to continue to exploit the oh-so-potentially-useful postiive energy of the atom, for explicitly DESTRUCTIVE purposes ...

I hardly see how such now-allowable, all-"important" development, is a "moot" point.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

I haven't "blamed" anybody. I mentioned historic fact. Perhaps I should have added the caveat that it was wartime, and the balance of the equation was that a million American lives potentially were saved, not to mention how many Japanese lives may have ultimately been saved. Germany had already surrendered, the axis did not have the unmolested facilities to pursue nuclear ambitions beyond simple experiments. It was enough to frighten the allies and for the US to start the Manhattan project, but the simple truth is that it would not have developed in Germany under the circumstances anyway...too many parts from too diverse sources getting bombed on a regular basis.

Ha! Yeah, those silly, pesky Germans. Good with burp guns, but it's not like that actually had scientists or anything! Not like they could actually have made a BOMB!

Oh dear God!!! Come on!!! Sure man, you just believe whatever you like. This silly little speck of dirt was DAMN NEAR an antheap. But if you think we just wanted to go KILL KILL KILL ... and that Nagasaki/Hiroshima was just "pooh on you, you screw with Pearl Harbor, we'll bomb you into the Stone Age" - then okay. You believe that.

I think we almost perished. And I think GOD ... THE GOD ... Intervened, and literally SAVED US.

But that's just one guy's belief ...

Originally Posted by juantoo3

So, what I have suspected all along is true, that you would kill me and any like me to further your Theosophist agenda? Because we disagree?

Passive aggressiveness, too, is par for the course. If I make you uncomfortable, I won't apologize. I don't mind asking a person to THINK. If you reach the point of HATE, and SHUT UP, you're only really upsetting me ... then enough is enough. You WILL get the last word, because frankly, I can handle it.

And I don't need to come out ahead ...

Originally Posted by juantoo3

The difference being I am not looking to take your free will away, and even make accommodation for it...whereas you it would seem see things quite a bit differently.

I cannot remove, what is not present ... but nor would I desire to! Detachment, remember ...

(see how fast I don't care to respond once you "lose it" ... )

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Andrew!

How contradictory?! You make it seem as though you are the one being persecuted (who is in whose garden?) while you just finished stating that sometimes, I presume when suitable to yourself, the minority (presumably Christians, or at least those like me who disagree with you) are expendable. Since when do you rate the persecution card? What gives you merit to hold a persecution complex as a Theosophist? I don't even play that card...I think its a cheap shot and a coward's way out...but I least I can understand it in some situations. Not yours.

I think, what Juan is stating is that it would be remiss, to not call a "brother" on the perverbial "carpet", for conceit, wrapped in the guise of perceived persecution. "Rebuke your brother in his ways"...(para) is also biblical.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

That statement counters the bible's specific point that God cannot abide with evil (nothing exists in a vaccuum).

As far as laying one's life down for his brother (friend), the "selfishness" here is clearly identified as being good. He selfishly want's to live, but selfishly wants his brother to live, so he chooses to be selfishly beneficial to his brother, thus denying himself his own life...


"...take me out of this world, God please - don't take the girl..." good song.

God created evil. Evil, even as the (temporary) deprivation or lack of ... God, is a CONDITION, which God allows to exist.

If you insist of making a giant PERSON out of god, then yes, God must oppose evil, though I also argue that evil is relative. That which we call `evil' will cease to exist after a point, and yet, even on a greater scale of being, we will be faced with a relative imperfection - and the very Forces of Opposition - which ALLOW us (as Cosmic Beings) to overcome, and to demonstrate a Greater Will.

Some might say that God is then, just "using" evil ... and "not really giving it a change" - hey, I can play `Devil's Advocate' like the rest of 'em.

But that's not so! The problem, imho, is our understanding of what "evil" is to begin with! If we better grasped the processes of involution and evolution, then we wouldn't be so quick to label anything that doesn't suit us, `evil.' Racial genocide, for example, seems evil ... and in a vacuum, sure it is!

What was that about a vacuum, Q?


And yes, giving one's life for another, that's exactly what I meant ... that our greater Responsibility, to ourself and to God, is to look beyond (the lesser) self, and to aid OTHERS.

[juantoo3]

Nah, I don't need to lose it, I simply edit your condescending remarks and decide it is not wise to argue with a fool. Good night.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

God created evil. Evil, even as the (temporary) deprivation or lack of ... God, is a CONDITION, which God allows to exist.

If you insist of making a giant PERSON out of god, then yes, God must oppose evil, though I also argue that evil is relative. That which we call `evil' will cease to exist after a point, and yet, even on a greater scale of being, we will be faced with a relative imperfection - and the very Forces of Opposition - which ALLOW us (as Cosmic Beings) to overcome, and to demonstrate a Greater Will.

Some might say that God is then, just "using" evil ... and "not really giving it a change" - hey, I can play `Devil's Advocate' like the rest of 'em.

But that's not so! The problem, imho, is our understanding of what "evil" is to begin with! If we better grasped the processes of involution and evolution, then we wouldn't be so quick to label anything that doesn't suit us, `evil.' Racial genocide, for example, seems evil ... and in a vacuum, sure it is!

What was that about a vacuum, Q?


And yes, giving one's life for another, that's exactly what I meant ... that our greater Responsibility, to ourself and to God, is to look beyond (the lesser) self, and to aid OTHERS.

"Absense of" is not creation of anything. It is a lack of something. God cannot "create" an absense of good (evil).

There is nothing that is cold for example, only an absence of heat.

And giving one's life for another is very selfish. There is a reward for the act (self satisfaction that what was done was noble and right).

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Nah, I don't need to lose it, I simply edit your condescending remarks and decide it is not wise to argue with a fool. Good night.

Just because you can't always get an Amen Corner, doesn't mean there isn't a lesson to be learned ...

And my point, besides, is that Humanity is neither unredeemable, nor without that within it, which resonates, or answers, to the Divine Call.

Sometimes, patience and self-control really are the lessons we're being asked to consider. And we can't move forward, until we accept them.

I really have nothing to gain, nothing to lose. After all, Juan, I am not your Brother, unless or until you affirm it.

And then, if you so choose, you will find that Love can conquer all those snide remarks ... and every last knife-thrust ...

... because God knows, I haven't learned how to stay in here without my fair share of abuse.

I'm just doing my best - not to take any of it personally.

So every effort to drive it in a little deeper, forces me to ask, DOES THIS HURT?

And my feelings?

Don't worry about it, BROTHER, even if I have them, they don't matter nearly as much ... as winning the argument ... now do they?

You STILL don't see ... and I can't help that, atm.

Hmmmm .... Q ....

[juantoo3]

And my feelings?

Don't worry about it, BROTHER, even if I have them, they don't matter nearly as much ... as winning the argument ... now do they?

You win.

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

"Absense of" is not creation of anything. It is a lack of something. God cannot "create" an absense of good (evil).

Ah, but God created those conditions (or, Buddhistically, the Cosmos of CONDITIONED BEING) wherein evil - as the absence of Good - can and DOES exist. God is not so dumb as to think, or believe, that this will not occur. God, to be clear, does not NOT Know, that "evil" will arise, and even rule, temporarily. Yes God does Know, also, that Good will prevail.

But the, ALL THINGS (people, etc.) RETURN unto God. Or so THE Wisdom of the East tells us. Vide a Prayer called `the Gayatri.'

And as I have prayed, many times:

THY WILL BE DONE, On Earth as it is in Heaven ...

Originally Posted by Quahom1

There is nothing that is cold for example, only an absence of heat.

Yep. All made possible by ...

Originally Posted by Quahom1

And giving one's life for another is very selfish. There is a reward for the act (self satisfaction that what was done was noble and right).

No. I disagree. I do not think that Jesus cooperated with the Divine Plan ... simply so that he might be SELF-SATISFIED with what HE was doing. This suggests EGO, a truly PERSONAL motivation (VANITY, REWARD, GLORY).

The Jesus I believe in did NOT require, or want, any of these things.

But then ... we are all FREE to believe as we so choose ...

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

You win.

I win, I lose, it makes no difference ... I posted on this thread because I believe, that Humanity is not ultimately destined to PURE SELFISHNESS ... or to the TRIUMPH of the lesser self.

I am disheartened, and discouraged, whenever I see people overcome by the notion that evil will triumph, or that separatism is simply human nature. I believe that the Divine Potential exists within us all. Therefore, selfishness is only the temporary triumph ... of the least aspect of our nature, or "evil."

Yet the `Human Number' is not the only Number. God is the Divine Mathematician.

777, also, has meaning, for the symbologist, and for the student of esotericism. It amounts, in a sense to 111, which is the "opposite" (and also the complement) of 666, because the material self (separative, lower self) ... is, inevitably and eventually, mutually exclusive from, or oppsosed to - the Higher Self.

But then, I am a bit zealous ... when it comes to the Mystery Teachings, and the Wisdom of the Ephesians - even of St. Paul.

If only I could remember ...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Ah, but God created those conditions (or, Buddhistically, the Cosmos of CONDITIONED BEING) wherein evil - as the absence of Good - can and DOES exist. God is not so dumb as to think, or believe, that this will not occur. God, to be clear, does not NOT Know, that "evil" will arise, and even rule, temporarily. Yes God does Know, also, that Good will prevail.

But the, ALL THINGS (people, etc.) RETURN unto God. Or so THE Wisdom of the East tells us. Vide a Prayer called `the Gayatri.'

And as I have prayed, many times:

THY WILL BE DONE, On Earth as it is in Heaven ...

Yep. All made possible by ...

No. I disagree. I do not think that Jesus cooperated with the Divine Plan ... simply so that he might be SELF-SATISFIED with what HE was doing. This suggests EGO, a truly PERSONAL motivation (VANITY, REWARD, GLORY).

The Jesus I believe in did NOT require, or want, any of these things.

But then ... we are all FREE to believe as we so choose ...

Can't "create" non existence. Evil is antipathy of Good. Evil is "lack of" Good.

The rise of "evil" is actually the desimation of "good". Or the withdrawl of good.

God, is the ultimate Ego. None can surpass Him. None have the right to. (it is impossible for a finite being to even begin to contemplate the entirety of the infinite).

And if the "wisdom" of the East is so prevelent...why pray tell is the majority still living backwood fuedal lifestyles? Not that the West is much better...

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Can't "create" non existence. Evil is antipathy of Good. Evil is "lack of" Good.

The rise of "evil" is actually the desimation of "good". Or the withdrawl of good.

God, is the ultimate Ego. None can surpass Him. None have the right to. (it is impossible for a finite being to even begin to contemplate the entirety of the infinite).

Aha! I don't think of God as either `Good,' or `Evil.' Yin-Yang, there are two aspects, chasing each other around, within the circle. But the "God" I think of as the Circle, is not either the Yang, OR the Yin. It is not `good, nor is it `evil.'

There are many levels, many applications, many understandings, of this duality ... such as Spirit/matter, Consciousness/form, Positive/negative. But we CANNOT have one, without the other. They are DEFINED in terms of the other. There is NO GOOD, without evil.

GOD, as I understand (or believe in) God, is beyond these two - greater than, Transcendent of, this duality. Therefore, God is neither Good, nor Evil.

GOD IS.

But, this may not be resolvable into Christian terms. I dunno. I guess it's up to each of us to figure out if this makes sense.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

And if the "wisdom" of the East is so prevelent...why pray tell is the majority still living backwood fuedal lifestyles? Not that the West is much better

Well, I look at it like this: Evolution (God's Plan), occurs in cycles. It's a spiral, and on a prior turn of the spiral, perhaps the East was more in tune with the Plan, and with Divine Order. But civilizations that once ruled, have since fallen ... and now, the West has become the focus. Esoterically, America is more or less the reincarnation of Ancient Egypt, while the UK is Rome, risen again. But this is just a background, and does not necessarily indicate the future ...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I win, I lose, it makes no difference ... I posted on this thread because I believe, that Humanity is not ultimately destined to PURE SELFISHNESS ... or to the TRIUMPH of the lesser self.

I am disheartened, and discouraged, whenever I see people overcome by the notion that evil will triumph, or that separatism is simply human nature. I believe that the Divine Potential exists within us all. Therefore, selfishness is only the temporary triumph ... of the least aspect of our nature, or "evil."

Yet the `Human Number' is not the only Number. God is the Divine Mathematician.

777, also, has meaning, for the symbologist, and for the student of esotericism. It amounts, in a sense to 111, which is the "opposite" (and also the complement) of 666, because the material self (separative, lower self) ... is, inevitably and eventually, mutually exclusive from, or oppsosed to - the Higher Self.

But then, I am a bit zealous ... when it comes to the Mystery Teachings, and the Wisdom of the Ephesians - even of St. Paul.

If only I could remember ...

Evil will never triumph. We've been most assuredly told that over and over again. The purpose of evil is to take away as much as possible from God before the end. Like a vaccuum, evil want to suck everything into it (or more accurately, everything wants to enter into it so that there is no more vaccuum).

From a mathematical perspective, 666 is a flawed number. It lacks...

777 is a perfect number, it lacks for nothing.

However, this is diverting us from the original concept of the thread.

Life, is by nature, selfish. Nothing occurs without an expectation of some kind.

Even death is selfish in a way (we wonder what's for US on the other side). It wants to make room for other new life...

[AndrewX]

I have met selfless people, therefore I have a hard time accepting anyone's insistence that "all people are truly selfish."

You could argue that it's all relative ... but umm, err, DUH! Yeah, LIFE is about relativity!

Christ's love was, relatively, Perfect and Unconditional!

And yet, it is precisely this type of relative Perfection toward which I think we are all striving ... and it is worth it!

Evil can triumph, in lesser cycles, and thus set back the Divine Plan. This is what I have learned, and it concerns me. Sometimes, it distresses me, even greatly.

But then, I try to remember, and sing, the Prayer of St. Francis (`Lord, Make me an Instrument of Thy Peace ...') ...

and this usually helps!

If we can avoid a global catastrophe, or even one ounce of unnecessary suffering ... then I think we should see to it, that it is so.

MAKE IT SO, #1!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Aha! I don't think of God as either `Good,' or `Evil.' Yin-Yang, there are two aspects, chasing each other around, within the circle. But the "God" I think of as the Circle, is not either the Yang, OR the Yin. It is not `good, nor is it `evil.'

There are many levels, many applications, many understandings, of this duality ... such as Spirit/matter, Consciousness/form, Positive/negative. But we CANNOT have one, without the other. They are DEFINED in terms of the other. There is NO GOOD, without evil.

GOD, as I understand (or believe in) God, is beyond these two - greater than, Transcendent of, this duality. Therefore, God is neither Good, nor Evil.

GOD IS.

But, this may not be resolvable into Christian terms. I dunno. I guess it's up to each of us to figure out if this makes sense.

Well, I look at it like this: Evolution (God's Plan), occurs in cycles. It's a spiral, and on a prior turn of the spiral, perhaps the East was more in tune with the Plan, and with Divine Order. But civilizations that once ruled, have since fallen ... and now, the West has become the focus. Esoterically, America is more or less the reincarnation of Ancient Egypt, while the UK is Rome, risen again. But this is just a background, and does not necessarily indicate the future ...

Then your thinking counters what God has declared in scriptures throughout the world of man. God can not be anything but good, else He would be a flawed being (which puts Him at the same level as man and angel). Not an area I care to come close to pondering...

God is. I am. But there is a huge difference between He and me...see? There is nothing to resolve about it. Because it doesn't matter to God what we believe or do not believe. What does matter to God is that we get with the program He created...

America is an experiment that was doomed to fail from the start...but something went terribly wrong...it turned to God, instead of away from...

The east can't figure out which god to turn to, and so fight over them all.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I have met selfless people, therefore I have a hard time accepting anyone's insistence that "all people are truly selfish."

You could argue that it's all relative ... but umm, err, DUH! Yeah, LIFE is about relativity!

Christ's love was, relatively, Perfect and Unconditional!

And yet, it is precisely this type of relative Perfection toward which I think we are all striving ... and it is worth it!

Evil can triumph, in lesser cycles, and thus set back the Divine Plan. This is what I have learned, and it concerns me. Sometimes, it distresses me, even greatly.

But then, I try to remember, and sing, the Prayer of St. Francis (`Lord, Make me an Instrument of Thy Peace ...') ...

and this usually helps!

If we can avoid a global catastrophe, or even one ounce of unnecessary suffering ... then I think we should see to it, that it is so.

MAKE IT SO, #1!

Need to look deeper into such "selfless people". The only ones I've ever met, had a frontal lobotomy...

That is the only selfless person in reality, then again they have no will either.

Christ's love, relative? Um, who else would we use to compare the Love of God to? Absolute is the descriptor I would use...

You keep insisting on describing evil as though it has some sort of substance, like it is a viable entity, when in reality it is the lack of "love" and subsequent actions that can occur based on that lack of "love".

I would think that one educated as yourself would not argue with the obviousness of evil being likened to a void. Fill it with something and it is no longer a void.

Evil is the deprivation of Good/Love...pretty simple.