Selfishness and Society

[wil]

Namaste Pathless,

Again, I can't go stop Christopher Columbus or any slaver of today. I've been homeless before it was sheik. I came after the hobo and before the homeless we were called bums, worthless hippies, longhairs, dirtbaggers. I didn't hang in shelters or go to soup kitchens, I twas a hunter gatherer both in the woods and the street. I've worked washing dishes as you can eat quite well in a kitchen, I've been the factory worker, laborer, carpenter. I'm hip to being ruled by the man. I make choices in this world of living within my means or beyond them, I've moved for work and for weather and for love, no roots have I. So again, I don't know how I can answer to or fix what Christopher Columbus does, nor do I understand how it pertains.

Bottom line, every job I've had, every drop a food I ate from birth till now is as a beneficiary of the current system I am in. Whether we are living at mom's at the gov't trough or working for the man, the shelter we recieve, the food we eat and everything we see and utilize daily we got to thank the selfish that are out there making a profit and risking their capital to do it for us. The farmer isn't farming to feed the world he is farming to feed his family. And the doctor didn't go to school for 20 years and pay hundreds of thousands of dollars because he was a philanthropist, he did it for the big bucks. Now a percentage of them change over time and that small percentage maybe 5-10% make up for the rest of them as they do mountains of good, more good than 50 of them could have...by creating a vaccine or a new technique or creating that foundatioin....

So onto finite resources. I'm a little confused about oil. We were gonna run out in the 60's we were gonna run out in the 80's, in the 70's they raised it to early 2k, now it will run out by 2080...further along we go the longer it lasts even though we consume many multiples of the previous predictions. There is one theory that the world hasn't finished making the stuff yet. But beyond that our technology keeps improving on ways to extract it, and the cost keeps rising to where we can now extract stuff (Canadian Shale where 60% of the US oil comes from) that was unprofitable in the past.

The best thing that could happen to us is we run out, then we'd quit producing all the greenhouse gases, so why is everyone concerned we are going to use up this finite resource when our goal is to not use it anyway??

Exactly what will we do with the leftover oil once we find another source? And guess who are the biggest people looking into ethanol, hydrogen and solar....the freaken oil (read energy) companies, they aren't going away, they'll use their profits on research and the MILLIONS of folks that work for them on whatever new system is developed.

Namaste Bashadi and welcome to the fray!

Tesla/Edison. Free energy. Do you believe it?? And it was sequestered by the illuminati? I mean big oil, they have the car that drives 1600 miles on a gallon of gas? A friend of a friend had a cousin whose uncle told him....

He lived till 87 and couldn't get it off the ground? Too bad he didn't meet some selfish venture capitalist... And decades later it is such a good secret and so many paid off millions or killed that it still isn't on the street. If folks were selfish the way you think they are this could not be hidden.

Tesla had some stuff, some worked, most didn't, same as Edison.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Pathless,

Again, I can't go stop Christopher Columbus or any slaver of today. I've been homeless before it was sheik. I came after the hobo and before the homeless we were called bums, worthless hippies, longhairs, dirtbaggers. I didn't hang in shelters or go to soup kitchens, I twas a hunter gatherer both in the woods and the street. I've worked washing dishes as you can eat quite well in a kitchen, I've been the factory worker, laborer, carpenter. I'm hip to being ruled by the man. I make choices in this world of living within my means or beyond them, I've moved for work and for weather and for love, no roots have I. So again, I don't know how I can answer to or fix what Christopher Columbus does, nor do I understand how it pertains.

That's fair enough. You are right; you and I cannot stop what Columbus did. What was put into motion by Columbus and industry directly effects all of us, though. Because of that, I think it's really important for us to look deeply at the legacy of colonization and industrialization, and see what the inevitable end state is.

Originally Posted by wil

Bottom line, every job I've had, every drop a food I ate from birth till now is as a beneficiary of the current system I am in. Whether we are living at mom's at the gov't trough or working for the man, the shelter we recieve, the food we eat and everything we see and utilize daily we got to thank the selfish that are out there making a profit and risking their capital to do it for us. The farmer isn't farming to feed the world he is farming to feed his family. And the doctor didn't go to school for 20 years and pay hundreds of thousands of dollars because he was a philanthropist, he did it for the big bucks. Now a percentage of them change over time and that small percentage maybe 5-10% make up for the rest of them as they do mountains of good, more good than 50 of them could have...by creating a vaccine or a new technique or creating that foundatioin....

I think you are making leaps of logic to justify the status-quo. I can understand what you are saying about all of us being stuck within this system, whether we like it or not, and whether it is beneficial or not. Where I begin to disagree with you is when you make the claim that selfishness is a great thing, hands down. To win over the rational, skeptical crowd, you soften your argument down to apply to most people who are concerned with meeting their own needs and the needs of their families, and no one can or is really disagreeing with that. Even I am not going to say, "Starve. Other people need to eat." But where you lose my support is when you start ramping it up to apply to the Bill Gates and Andrew Carnegie crowd, and equate the same value to what comes down to excessive consumerism/consumption. The picture I am getting from you is that scraping by in an economic system (often working very hard to do so) is just as selfish, or is somehow otherwise equal to, depleting the Earth's resources and employing hundreds or thousands of humans and other animals to 1) accrue vast amounts of material and capital, and 2) create industrial (or informational or robotic) infrastructure.

What's wrong with improving infrastructure? Like I've said, it draws down the finite reserves of energy in the world, which at the very least indebts future generations to the excesses of the present.

Originally Posted by wil

So onto finite resources. I'm a little confused about oil. We were gonna run out in the 60's we were gonna run out in the 80's, in the 70's they raised it to early 2k, now it will run out by 2080...further along we go the longer it lasts even though we consume many multiples of the previous predictions. There is one theory that the world hasn't finished making the stuff yet. But beyond that our technology keeps improving on ways to extract it, and the cost keeps rising to where we can now extract stuff (Canadian Shale where 60% of the US oil comes from) that was unprofitable in the past.

Yes, there are certainly many different sources to get the information from. The problem with taking big oil's word for it, I think, is that they are invested in making a profit from oil extraction, so they may not be very forthcoming with straight data, if they have it. What I am saying is that they might fib a little bit, inflate their numbers. It's that venture capitalist mentality again--that selfishness.

There is the cornucopian theory that 1) somehow there are vast reserves of creamy oily goodness in the depths of the Earth, and/or 2) the Earth actually magically makes oil in a way we don't understand, and it doesn't actually take billions of years to form like our scientific figurings have led us to believe. I don't think that it's very wise to act as if either of these are the reality. Besides, even if there is creamy oily goodness deep in the Earth, oil becomes very difficult to extract after certain depths. Not only difficult, but completely inefficient; that is, the oil companies could use technologies and methods to extract it, but it would actually take more energy to extract than the extracted oil would provide. It's a loss of energy after a certain limit.

Also important to recognize is that the point when we completely run out isn't when we need to start being concerned. Hubbert's Peak simply describes that oil production and consumption are tied together, and that production follows a bell curve. As oil was discovered and extraction lagged behind discovery, the curve increased. It was as if more oil was being produced than could be used, an apparent surplus. But oil is not produced by humans; it was produced by geological processes over millions of years. The world was surveyed and mapped for oil, and by this point (from my readings at least--your sources may tell differently), all the large deposits of oil have been discovered and are being mined; some have been depleted already. Discoveries that are being made are of smaller fields that are or will be depleted rather quickly, especially as world industrialization and consumption of oil continues to increase.

The point when things start to get rough according to Hubbert's model is at the peak. Production no longer increases; it levels off. Consumption does not immediately decrease. Consumption likely may not decrease at all voluntarily. What will happen instead (some may argue what is imminent) is that industry and consumption of oil will begin to choke, asphyxiated by the sudden plunge in oil extraction. This wreaks havoc with industrial economies, leading to a massive economic crash.

Originally Posted by wil

The best thing that could happen to us is we run out, then we'd quit producing all the greenhouse gases, so why is everyone concerned we are going to use up this finite resource when our goal is to not use it anyway??

Why worry? Because our lives are habituated to oil. We will all suffer massive withdrawal symptoms as cheap energy depletes. Barring a miracle in free energy, we may all rapidly be facing a recurrence of the Stone Age. Of course, this may be a drastic assessment. I don't really believe that we are all going to be making tools out of sticks and stones; yet we are certainly in for a shock. Without abundant electricity, our entire civilization will crumble. Our lives will become much more immediate, much more local, much more focused on eating and staying warm. Sure, we'll still have the infrastructure, but it will become increasingly irrelevant; a rotting blight. It's not a very beautiful picture, I agree, but I do see some long-term positives that aren't so ethnocentric as our concerns about technology and survival are right now. These are things such as interdependence, connection to nature, deeply felt experience.

[Bishadi]

Tesla had some stuff, some worked, most didn't, same as Edison

Read a little on Tesla and about the usage of the earth’s magnetic field.

Edison is the father of America’s corporate mentality. He patented everything and created an infrastructure of requiring his product. GE (when they married) began the need of electric everything. But even then we could have used coils elevated from the surface and a specific recoil switch that oscillated which Tesla identified, to remove a centralized infrastructure. The flux of the earth’s magnetic field cutting the coils coupled with tesla’s switch, was capable of generating an a/c voltage, free once built and a load in place. Every household or locale neighborhood could be using one of these and imagine if we had pursued this technology of ‘off the grid’ style engineering back then.

Edison was a built in crook. His whole empire was built around caring more for his business and how to make a profit from us all then simply being happy with contributing his knowledge for the benefit of our species. Many may say, well we have the light bulb but forget now we have the centralization of corporations as well.

GE as a corp took over them patents and the entity now controlling most of the patents in all of the energy business is doing this exact same thing as Edison shared as legal business.

Do the reading yourself. Most of tesla’s old prints and hand written notes are out of access but I have a few. And since I was originally schooled at Edison Elementary and EdisonHigh school, (separate cities) you can be sure, Edison material was of easy access.

Ever wonder why people call Tesla ‘the true father of radio’ ? Because the of coils and electromagnetic transmissions were his play toys and all the time it was his brilliance and strict adherence to knowledge rather than the monetary pursuits that makes him dear to existence.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

[size=3] [/color]

Read a little on Tesla and about the usage of the earth’s magnetic field.

Edison is the father of America’s corporate mentality. He patented everything and created an infrastructure of requiring his product. GE (when they married) began the need of electric everything. But even then we could have used coils elevated from the surface and a specific recoil switch that oscillated which Tesla identified, to remove a centralized infrastructure. The flux of the earth’s magnetic field cutting the coils coupled with tesla’s switch, was capable of generating an a/c voltage, free once built and a load in place. Every household or locale neighborhood could be using one of these and imagine if we had pursued this technology of ‘off the grid’ style engineering back then.

Hey Bishadi. Do you think it is possible to harness the Earth's natural magnetic field in this way--to produce free energy (electricity) in perpetuity, once an infrastructure is in place? What do you think it would take to create and sustain that infrastructure in terms of raw materials and energy inputs? Could such a structure be self-sustaining?

I'm not an engineer or much of a scientist, but I am fascinated by the potentials of the Earth's electro-magnetic field to provide many of the needs that we've become accustomed and habituated to in the industrial era.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Why worry? Because our lives are habituated to oil. We will all suffer massive withdrawal symptoms as cheap energy depletes. Barring a miracle in free energy, we may all rapidly be facing a recurrence of the Stone Age. Of course, this may be a drastic assessment. I don't really believe that we are all going to be making tools out of sticks and stones; yet we are certainly in for a shock. Without abundant electricity, our entire civilization will crumble. Our lives will become much more immediate, much more local, much more focused on eating and staying warm. Sure, we'll still have the infrastructure, but it will become increasingly irrelevant; a rotting blight. It's not a very beautiful picture, I agree, but I do see some long-term positives that aren't so ethnocentric as our concerns about technology and survival are right now. These are things such as interdependence, connection to nature, deeply felt experience.

Namaste Pathless,

I can't help but laugh. Isn't that exactly what all my detractors are recommending? What breeds inovation and solutions more than need?? If we can run out of the darn stuff the solution will have to be at hand, it will have no choice or...massive collapse and in less than 100 years we will be hunter and gatherers and unless we've burned all the books will be able to build a better world or repeat the same mistakes...what do you reckon.

And in the big picture what could be better for the planet?

Or how could the same solution be found as quickly with all of our ammenitiess, win win it is!

As for oil there is more in North America than in all the middle east, and the gov't and big business is gladly letting the greenies keep us from extracting it, because the time will come when they demand it be drilled and then the profits will be HUGE!!

Gotta remember grain prices are going through the roof because the greens demanded ethanol, and big business laughs all the way to the bank. Wind farms were put up because of demand, and after they started killing birds (who knew migratory birds used those same high wind currents to fly faster) we had to modify them again, all at the cost of the consumer...and where do we have great winds and a huge opportunity but can't put them...outside of Ted Kennedy's compound and spoil the view...He must be a closet Republican or like Gore make a ton of money controlling almost a billion dollars in oil stocks.

I still say if not for selfishness we wouldn't have one factory, not one person would go out on a limb for the fruit, the nepal honey gatherers wouldn't climb, it is all about reward and we reap the benefits of those that went before us.

You ask what is wrong with improving infrastructure? Nothing, what are you proposing? I say make every road downhill!

My underlying question continues, what steps do we take to improve the situation now?

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Hey Bishadi. Do you think it is possible to harness the Earth's natural magnetic field in this way--to produce free energy (electricity) in perpetuity, once an infrastructure is in place? What do you think it would take to create and sustain that infrastructure in terms of raw materials and energy inputs? Could such a structure be self-sustaining?

I'm not an engineer or much of a scientist, but I am fascinated by the potentials of the Earth's electro-magnetic field to provide many of the needs that we've become accustomed and habituated to in the industrial era.

Sure.... but then again there are other toys as well there may be less of the need of things in the forms now.

The combination of hydrogen, solar usage and tesla coils may prove to be the best. And since H can burn in an ICE (internal combustion engine) the cycle of generating H (electrolysis) by solar, and then burn what you use, can create a self contained or 'off the grid' form.

Solar/coil for electolysis, separates hydrogen from water (h20), and store the potential (bottled). No sun? Run generator, burn the H in a small ICE; Return H to water, and the cycle returns to re-electrolysis of H.... da da da.... this is an easy game to play but are you ready to commit your life to it?

As far as the full scope of engineering this can be acheived, but too many entities own most of the patents to turn the wheel and they will not sell you what you need.

for example; venti/chevron own an enormous amount of hydrogen fuel patents and it is because of a certain compression value that can be used for hydrogen usage and was put to use in natural gas auto's as to why, natural gas auto's are no longer being produced.

to covert an ICE to burn H (3 times the btu's) is as simple as remembering that water and heat is the exhaust, so change to stainless... but all that smog junk is gone and just imagine being able to build a hot rod with no limits on emissions..... all them garage mechanics would be having a blast and if the sun is out, or your coil it up, you are making fuel at home.

But you all already know all this right?

[wil]

I've read plenty of Tesla stuff, been to a number of conventions in the basement of the science buildings.

Lot of wouldas and shouldas and couldas going on, but no machines??? Edison didn't write the first patent and didn't create the system. I don't know how many people over the years coast to coast in this country know that Tesla had the answers and the big guys forced him to die destitute in a hotel room.

I've got plenty of respect for what he did and what he was working on, but why is it not out there now if it had validity, and patents don't matter as long as we have China and Russia and India happily ignoring them and another few thousand Tesla enthusiasts over there.

[Bishadi]

Excuse me, A statement was made as to they 'do not make natural gas autos' ..... I was wrong, honda has an 08 model, and BMW has one as well as the Hydrogen ICE as well.

They are here and it seems the 'other' manufacturers... but no american.

For example; chevron built a hydrogen gas station in Iceland, where the heat from a volcanic vent offered the energy to separate the H from the water; in effect a self sustaining fuel pump.....

our company over there but did you know that?

I sent a letter a few years back to my congressman and he and hillary went to visit the plant in iceland but did either do a damn thing about it?

[Bishadi]

Originally Posted by wil

and patents don't matter as long as we have China and Russia and India happily ignoring them and another few thousand Tesla enthusiasts over there.

Good idea....

Maybe, I've been talking to the wrong croud.



So here is a question: Would you call me a traitor, if I crossed lines with sharing material knowledge?

Call the president because I don't care! I'll be in cognito!

[wil]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

I sent a letter a few years back to my congressman and he and hillary went to visit the plant in iceland but did either do a damn thing about it?

There are three Hydrogen pumps at stations in Washington DC that I have seen. I know they are working on ways to get it out of coal, and there are other methods but most now take electricity which is created by coal or oil so burning fossil fuels to create hydrogen, just like our ethanol debacle.

Since the 70's my friends have converted cars to run on propane, natural gas, not to detailed. As well as converting deisels to run on french fry oil. All cleaner and cheaper but still putting out greenhouse gasses. Problem with natural gas is the stations and training. Only a few thousand stations, tis why it is mostly gov't that uses it, buses, mail trucks, garbage trucks, etc.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

Good idea....

Maybe, I've been talking to the wrong croud.



So here is a question: Would you call me a traitor, if I crossed lines with sharing material knowledge?

Call the president because I don't care! I'll be in cognito!

The russians ran with Tesla info like there was no tomorrow, unfortuneately no results either. Now the laundry balls are said to have tesla beginnings and the refridgerator extenders and hot spark plugs, but as far as free energy.

My favorite story was the one about some city in Russia that was the test site and when they turned on the machine it sucked electrons from everywhere and killed everything in range. Yes it created electricity it was said, but it had to grab it from somewhere and mutated a lot of atoms doing it. And they still can't live there today....

Truth, fiction, urban legend, mythology or a little of all three who knows.

As far as I understand it the thing that Tesla wanted most was to send electricity like a radio signal, through the air with no wires and then have a receiver to pick it up. This is what it is rumored was his free energy machine, the receiver.

[Bishadi]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129972,00.html


REYKJAVIK, Iceland — U.S. Sens. Hillary Clinton (search) and John McCain (search) visited Iceland on Tuesday to study its use of alternative energies, but they were upstaged by former President Bill Clinton, whose separate 11-hour visit captivated the local media.

2004.2.20-26 Icelandic Tour - Northern Lights and Renewable Energy society - Joe Jordan (NASA/Ames Research Center and the SETI Institute, Cabrillo College and the Monterey Institute for International Studies) will lead a trip to Iceland, February 20-26, 2004, focusing on the aurora borealis ("northern lights") as well as on the bright future for renewable energy ("sky power"!) -- which Iceland is helping to realize right now with their great geothermal power resources and their plans for becoming the world's first hydrogen economy.

This was an fyi....

the problem now is that they is a drive for H electricty or for internal electrical generation rather than ICE or engine consumption. The reason these are not pursued is a the new infrastructure to be imposed returns the consumer to buying their products.

They want us to drive electrical cars, to remain attached to the umbilical cord of the consumption.

My point of this addition on this thread was there is no need of oil in the form now suggested, each and every house could be generating H, right now and even in the crude form of solar panels (sand), each could be rebuilding the vehicles and products we currently have. The amount of control the centralizing regime has is enormous.

For example we had a philanthropist in town here funded EVIT, a tech school Fuel Cell Works Supplemental News Page and they were teaching how to convert a vehicle to burn H and now the program is loosing ground. Not because they could not build it or of funding but because some magic wand, pulled the right stings

We will soon show you more. There will be more hydrogen fueled vehicles on the road – soon! You will not have to wait for fuel-cell vehicles as the energy lobby would have you believe.

www.globalhydrogen.org

[wil]

Originally Posted by Bishadi

My point of this addition on this thread was there is no need of oil in the form now suggested, each and every house could be generating H, right now and even in the crude form of solar panels (sand), each could be rebuilding the vehicles and products we currently have. The amount of control the centralizing regime has is enormous.

For example we had a philanthropist in town here funded EVIT, a tech school Fuel Cell Works Supplemental News Page and they were teaching how to convert a vehicle to burn H and now the program is loosing ground. Not because they could not build it or of funding but because some magic wand, pulled the right stings

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www.globalhydrogen.org

magic wand, come on Bishadi,

if it was profitable the big boys would gladly utilize it.

I'm telling you right now, if you've got the solution, build me the solar panel that will create the hydrogen and I'll buy it now. Oops caveat, it has to pay for itself. ie it has to work.

Almost all US manufacturers build natural gas vehicles, just not for you or me. Why because they build fleet vehicles for industry, like I said, buses, trucks etc. Why because they are more expensive to build, they have less storage room, and they only go half as far. John Q public won't want them. The Mercedes and Hondas that are being built don't have lines waiting for them, because the public doesn't want it, not because of some conspiracy.

Now back to your illustrious H. If I can get a H-car that costs the same annually to operate as my current vehicle, I'm buying it. If you've got the werewithal to show me a prototype me and my opulent conspicous consumption venture capitalists will bank roll ya! If the manufacturers could build one, they would. But they don't because they can't.

So while Iceland may be able to create plenty of hydrogen and maybe we could do the same along the sierras, cascades and tetons (high volcanic activity, lots of hot springs) it ain't flying for the rest of the country.

Back to selfishness, it rules and the new Xprize for 10 million for the first to create the 100 mpg car for four passengers and storage should bring all the super secret suppressed patents out of the wood work....why?? for the money...just like the space shot, just like the private moonshot...use greed to create inventions which benefit the masses!!!

that's it...a greed car....greedicity powering the country....

[Bruno's logic]

We all stand on the shoulders of those who came before us ....
We are not inventing technology we are discovering what already exists.....
All that is possible will come to pass if humanity survives long enough....
This conversation humanity is having with itself has been going on for thousands of years and we have much to show for it.
~Bruno

When we survey our lives and endeavours, we soon observe that almost the whole of our actions and desires is bound up with the existence of other human beings. We notice that our whole nature resembles that of the social animals. We eat food that others have produced, wear clothes that others have made, live in houses that others have built. The greater part of our knowledge and beliefs has been communicated to us by other people through the medium of a language which others have created. Without language our mental capacities would be poor indeed, comparable to those of the higher animals; we have, therefore, to admit that we owe our principal advantage over the beasts to the fact of living in human society. The individual, if left alone from birth, would remain primitive and beastlike in his thoughts and feelings to a degree that we can hardly conceive. -(Albert Einstein, 1934)

[Bishadi]

if it was profitable the big boys would gladly utilize it.

I'm telling you right now, if you've got the solution, build me the solar panel that will create the hydrogen and I'll buy it now. Oops caveat, it has to pay for itself. ie it has to work.

take 2 wires, tie each to a razor blade, use a rubber band and toothpick to combine the razors blades but separated by the toothpick (not touching). Put the 'stinger' in water, place the other 2 ends of the wires in any live socket.......

see the bubbles.... there's your hydrogen/oxygen. keep the change.

and buy the way, is there anything you ever bought that pays for itself other than something used as a tool for/of work? meaning your car gets you to work, but the gas never paid for itself.

And if you want to do the calculations, what you should do is check how much juice it would take to make a gallon of hydrogen... of better

Because wind generation of hydrogen provided the best health and climate benefits, the researchers did a cost analysis to compare the cost of a gallon of gasoline with that of a gallon of hydrogen generated by wind electrolysis. The cost of making hydrogen from wind is $1.12

and then you say

If the manufacturers could build one, they would. But they don't because they can't.

You actually believe this?

Back to selfishness, it rules and the new Xprize for 10 million for the first to create the 100 mpg car for four passengers and storage should bring all the super secret suppressed patents out of the wood work....why?? for the money...just like the space shot, just like the private moonshot...use greed to create inventions which benefit the masses!!!

And now you know why no one has published the truth.

I came to this site to read quality material and convey what has been learned and all you did was share how screwed up people can be.

First you represent a debate of society and cause, then bark about how cool it is to be selfish, then share how money runs progress but really have no clue as to the sciences or any reality of any of it, and then laugh it up as if what this mentality has done to our globe is good and yet this same set of ideals is about to destroy a few billion folk....

Please .... from the opinion of this I...... you make me sick!