Sex and Religion...

[Amatullah]

Salam (Peace!)

I do realize that when a matter has been ordained by Allah as to whether it is allowed (halal) or forbidden (haram) we must submit and accept it. However I don't see why we should not ponder as to why the law has been passed. For instance I know that if I were to pray simply because it was obligatory, I would not enjoy praying and would in fact consider it to be a burden. However knowing why God has made prayer compulsory for a mature human being, and knowing how I benefit from it helps me to enjoy talking to God and to look forward to engaging in prayers. Similarly I'm sure we will appreciate all other Islamic laws more if we knew or at least try to know why they exist. I agree with you when you say that we submit to these laws because we believe in a Creator and that the Creator knows the creature better than the creature knows itself. However how does asking questions contradict this belief? When we get the answers they only make us realize even more that God's Wisdom is Infinite and that He only wills what is good for us.

Amatullah

[SC_Override]

Originally Posted by Amatullah

“

Originally Posted by Amatullah

I do realize that when a matter has been ordained by Allah as to whether it is allowed (halal) or forbidden (haram) we must submit and accept it. However I don't see why we should not ponder as to why the law has been passed.”

I am not saying that it is forbidden to think such things. However, if there is no clear answer, and talking about such things will lead to nothing then it becomes pointless. Your time can be spent better on other things, for example you could spend that time doing some dhiker. I mean lets say for example with the case of homosexuality, lets say even if we human beings could conceive a justifiable reason as to why homosexuality should be acceptable, which many have tried, it would be completely pointless because god has made it forbidden, and we are not going to change it because people say you need to move with the times. Therefore, what is the point of engaging in debate about things that have been made Haraam?

Originally Posted by Amatullah

“

Originally Posted by Amatullah

However how does asking questions contradict this belief?”

Where have I said that it contradicts our beliefs? I am just saying it is pointless, which is completely different.

Originally Posted by Amatullah

“When we get the answers they only make us realize even more that God's Wisdom is Infinite and that He only wills what is good for us.”

And what happens if you can’t get answers? You do know that there are some things that are unexplainable in the Quran. Not everything is explained as to why, if someone says there are then this is a lie. The problem is that there are some Muslims who will try to give explanations as to why because they are worried that people who can’t find out the reason as to why we can’t eat pork etc will turn away from god. Well then that itself is a test from god too. Much of it is about blind faith, and accepting some thing’s blindly, otherwise if everything had an explanation then it would not be much of a test. I believe that Allah (swt) has left some things unexplained because of the ignorance of human beings thinking that everything needs an explanation and if some thing’s are left unexplained then this can only suggest falsehood.



Having said all that I am not saying don’t think about it, I am just saying don’t stress over it when you can’t find the answer, because in essence it is pointless and should just be accepted blindly if you accept Islam.

[PluckyAli]

I do understand your point of view but it's not very logical.I don't have a time to explain all things.So i am writing a brief only on the subject.Personally i think It would help if you will keep ur excessive assumptions to the minimum.

"it is pointless to engage in debate whether or not homosexuality is a natural desire or something that is developed socially etc, especially when there is no conclusive evidence to support it."

I have been trying to tell you how knowing things whether they are natural or is developed socially is important but you have kept saying it's useless and your assumption is there is no evidence.The problem is if you think they are from God or natural then you by psychology,scientifically,logically will think one day Am I a gay or a straight?.And every women will think Am i a lesbian or a straight?.

To speak honestly,it is you who should give us evidence to show homosexaulity is a natural desire.Phadeophile,homosexuality,sex with animals according to you are desires and given by God(natural).Sex with family is forbidden in religions but what if some ppl have these desires?.Are we going to say Allah has given them these desires or they have made it up?.

That means your by definition accepting they are natural and from God.In fact you are here giving the wrong impression of God and islam.I believe They all are developed socially.In other words they are not natural.God did not give the human beings a variety of desires.The variety of desires are given by a variety of media.

The prob is not homosexuality,the prob is what homo do.The do things which are medically,scientifically,morally,hygienic wrong.

Finally it is you who is making this discussion complex.It's all started when you replied to my post where i said homo is not a test from Allah.Infact it's relatively simple since homo are just like straight so homo ppl doesnot exist in reality.To believe it is a desire given by god(natural) you will have to give us a strong reason.The burden of proof is on you.


Faith should not be blind.There is a famous quote:
"Science without religion is lame,religon without science is blind".--Einstein

oh if some is homo who is reading this plz forgive,i have nothing against homos cuz i don't believe homosexual ppl exist in reality.

[SC_Override]

Obviously we are not on the same wave length. I am sorry to say this but you are not making any sense at all.



Let me get this straight, are you saying that heterosexuality is a sexual desire that exists but homosexuality is a sexual desire that does not exist?



Anyway, could you please tell me if these desires are instilled into people socially, then who is it that instilled it into society first and for what purpose?

Originally Posted by PluckyAli

Faith should not be blind.There is a famous quote:
"Science without religion is lame,religon without science is blind".—Einstein

Hmmmm…..and you say I don’t know anything about my religion…interesting.

[PluckyAli]

Let me get this straight, are you saying that heterosexuality is a sexual desire that exists but homosexuality is a sexual desire that does not

No,I am not saying this.I am just saying homosexuality exist only in the brain.Scientific studies show if u keeping saying something to someone then after a period(depending on the person) s/he will accept it as a fact specially if the person is not mature.

Anyway, could you please tell me if these desires are instilled into people socially, then who is it that instilled it into society first and for what purpose?

How i am supposed to know?.I don't know.

Study shows cartoons have an impact on the small childrens and those childrens who watch cartoons(mostly violence) for 2 hours have 50% chance of becoming bullies and those who watch for 8 hours have 200% more chance of becoming bullies.The teen who's fav game was Grand thief Auto(a popular game) killed a police officer,and was asked why did u do this?He said "Life is just a game".This shows everything has an impact on the human mind.This certainly not has much to do with homo.Just for info.

Hmmmm…..and you say I don’t know anything about my religion…interesting.

Nah,You said earlier much of faith is about blind faith and i disagree.Everything is about logic and nothing is blind.

[sarahamdy]

http://sisters.islamway.com/modules....rder=0&thold=0

MAYBE THIS IS RELATED...

[PluckyAli]

Originally Posted by sarahamdy

http://sisters.islamway.com/modules....rder=0&thold=0

MAYBE THIS IS RELATED...

Maybe bad links will not help us and you should at least check your link.

[munim_miah]

As far as im concerned, you are allowed to look at the wife's vagina but it is preferred that you dont because of modesty, it isnt totally forbidden

[Nitai]

some points about sex and spirituality

* main principle of pure path to develop love of god is to
* always think about God and never forget Him and
* to always please Him with all activities we perform

* it follows that:
* sex for procreating children that will be raised to develop love of God is pleasing to God
* sex for our own sense gratification will be the cause of forgetting the principle of doing everything for the pleasure of God
* it is the cause of materialistic life and increasing our thinking about other things than God and His service
* CONCLUSION: thus ones spiritual advancement becomes almost nil when indulging in sex for sense gratification.

* SOLUTION: one should sincerely endeavor to control the mind by fixing it on God;
* one should make endeavor to always use the senses in service of God
* RESULT: developing ones higher taste for spiritual activities one will not desire to unnecessarily indulge in sexual activity

* THE TEST: how much we develop attraction for pleasing God and how much we think about God instead of women is the barometer of our spiritual advancement
* as more we are thinking about God we certainly more love Him then sense gratification
* ULTIMATELLY one will be blessed to develop full and pure love of God

Hare Krishna.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Nitai

some points about sex and spirituality

* main principle of pure path to develop love of god is to
* always think about God and never forget Him and
* to always please Him with all activities we perform

* it follows that:
* sex for procreating children that will be raised to develop love of God is pleasing to God
* sex for our own sense gratification will be the cause of forgetting the principle of doing everything for the pleasure of God
* it is the cause of materialistic life and increasing our thinking about other things than God and His service
* CONCLUSION: thus ones spiritual advancement becomes almost nil when indulging in sex for sense gratification.

* SOLUTION: one should sincerely endeavor to control the mind by fixing it on God;
* one should make endeavor to always use the senses in service of God
* RESULT: developing ones higher taste for spiritual activities one will not desire to unnecessarily indulge in sexual activity

* THE TEST: how much we develop attraction for pleasing God and how much we think about God instead of women is the barometer of our spiritual advancement
* as more we are thinking about God we certainly more love Him then sense gratification
* ULTIMATELLY one will be blessed to develop full and pure love of God

Hare Krishna.

h|,
I'll have my sex for sensual gratification as well thankyou. In Islam, sexual activity is a good thing as long as it is done with in it's prescribed framework. Fornication and adultery are strictly forbidden and highly punishable. Islam is against Monasticism. You can develop high levels of spirituality still. we live in this world and we should act like it.

[thipps]

Originally Posted by munim_miah

As far as im concerned, you are allowed to look at the wife's vagina but it is preferred that you dont because of modesty, it isnt totally forbidden

salaam,
The subject was discussed in the light of proof. After this, personal opinion has no weight either way. What do you mean by 'totally forbidden'? It is either forbidden or not. Bottom line is: its not forbidden and it was shown that this idea was based on a fabricated hadith. So, please lets not start this again. Thankyou.

[Nitai]

** In Islam, sexual activity is a good thing as long as it is done with in it's prescribed framework.

-- Ok, but you have to see if the following of those rules result in developing your love for Allah. If not then something is wrong.
-- The idea is that one have to become gradually detached from this material world and become attached to God.
-- this is the test weather you developing love of God and spiritual taste for spiritual life.
-- these are simply universal principles for all
-- attachment / detachment. lust for material things or love for God
-- these two things go ill together.

** Fornication and adultery are strictly forbidden and highly punishable.
-- Good, I appreciate the principle.

** Islam is against Monasticism.
-- I did not say you should become a celibate monk, but as you also mentioned, be regulated.
-- Its important to choose what I mentioned above, attachment / detachment, lust or love.
-- I know it's difficult to hear about this but when you developing love for Allah everything is easy and joyful.

** You can develop high levels of spirituality still.
-- Ok, what are the symptoms of a person with high levels of spirituality.
-- How does he speak, how does he behave, what are his desires, what are his activities. How does he overcomes and why the temptations of this material world.

Your well-wisher
Nitai
Hare Krishna

[thipps]

Originally Posted by Nitai

RESULT: developing ones higher taste for spiritual activities one will not desire to unnecessarily indulge in sexual activity

Where do u draw the line? what's 'unnecessary' sex in the framework of marriage where the sexual appetite of two people is involved?

** In Islam, sexual activity is a good thing as long as it is done with in it's prescribed framework.

-- Ok, but you have to see if the following of those rules result in developing your love for Allah. If not then something is wrong.
-- The idea is that one have to become gradually detached from this material world and become attached to God.
-- this is the test weather you developing love of God and spiritual taste for spiritual life.
-- these are simply universal principles for all
-- attachment / detachment. lust for material things or love for God
-- these two things go ill together.

Yes it works.. sexual desire is natural and Allaah has ordained the satisfaction of this desire through marriage. God knows us better than we know ourselves. He is our Creator. We follow His commands cause we know that they will benefit us whether science and technology or our own reasoning capabilities advance to that point where we can agree with it. he never said to us regarding sexual activity what you are saying. Though in this regard (especially when we are not married), we are told to fast... and we do fast, from dawn till sunset each year for a full month as an obligation which Allaah has ordained for the muslims. we can do extra ones as well if we wish. I read that other post you wrote about abstaining from food helping in lower sexual desire... Islam agrees with you in this regard and this is what the Prophet(pbuh) told us to do. BUT note that sexual activity in islam is not only about one person's desire but also about the satisfaction of the spouse... this is not a selfish act. This is part of one's love for another person.
Another thing regarding detaching oneself from the material world... this is what the Sufi movement was in the beginning & it sounds good but in the end, too many wrong things got into it, so what you r saying in this regard isnt anything new to us. Still, let me make something clear... islam teaches us practicality... we live in this world and it gives us the way to be prosperous in this world and the next (both)... we just have to follow the teachings (which, sadly, alot of us are not doing these days) and it makes us understand that this world is nothing compared to the hereafter and that we should not be caught up in it.As Muslims we have been told by our Messenger (pbuh) that this world is a transitionary period. The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Live in this world as if you are a stranger or a traveller" [Sahih Bukhaaree]
This life should be like a long journey on which we gather all that we need to get to our destination i.e. following Allaah's commands, which entails doing good deeds etc. This destination being the Hereafter and death the journeys end. Allah says in the Qur'an:
"But truly the home of the hereafter is the actual life, if only they knew" [Qur'an, 29:64]
"Every soul shall have a taste of death: And only on the Day of Judgment shall you be paid your full recompense. Only he who is saved far from the Fire and admitted to the Garden will have attained the object (of Life): For the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception." [Qur'an, 3:185]
"Know ye (all), that the life of this world is but play and amusement, pomp and mutual boasting and multiplying, (in rivalry) among yourselves, riches and children. Here is a similitude: How rain and the growth which it brings forth, delight (the hearts of) the tillers; soon it withers; thou wilt see it grow yellow; then it becomes dry and crumbles away. But in the Hereafter is a Penalty severe (for the devotees of wrong). And Forgiveness from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure (for the devotees of Allah). And what is the life of this world, but goods and chattels of deception?" [Qur'an, 57:20]

- Ok, what are the symptoms of a person with high levels of spirituality.
-- How does he speak, how does he behave, what are his desires, what are his activities. How does he overcomes and why the temptations of this material world.

You first as you came here to tell us about how to develop spirituality in some specific way which is in your mind.

And Allah knows best.

[Nitai]

Hare Krishna

I hope you are well. Here are some further thoughts

**sexual desire is natural and Allah has ordained the satisfaction of this desire through marriage. God knows us better than we know ourselves. He is our Creator.
## as far as I know Adam and Eva were not created lusty. Not listening God's command they became lusty. actually everyone of as has the same story like Adam and Eva. That's why we are now here in this material world. This is, I heard, according to explanation eve of some Muslim theologians.
## So, originally no one was lusty or impure but we became because disobeying the commands of God
## the purpose of religion is to regain our original purity and thus become qualified to go back to the abode of God

**sexual activity in Islam is not only about one person's desire but also about the satisfaction of the spouse... this is not a selfish act. This is part of one's love for another person.
## the Vedic scriptures do not agree with this. Igniting taste for material enjoyment keeps you in illusion that you are this body and you have to enjoy the body.
## as long as you are thinking you are the body you cannot come up to the spiritual platform where you can understand: you are the soul; God and your eternal loving relationship with God.
## but bodily satisfaction has nothing to do with the soul and spiritual advancement.

** Islam teaches us practicality... we live in this world and it gives us the way to be prosperous in this world
## The Vedas do not have anything against material prosperity but its purpose is only to support spiritual advancement
## otherwise it becomes an impediment - leading one astray from God-realization.
## unfortunately, this is what happens nowadays more and more. you can see the evidence around yourself

### about temporarilty and transitory material world you gave a very nice quotes. Thank you
### I especially like this one: the life of this world is but goods and chattels of deception." [Qur'an, 3:185]
### The same opinion is there in the Vedic literature.
### therefore, one is not advised to try to enjoy material life
### one should know everything belongs to God and use everything in His service for His pleasure

** You came here to tell us about how to develop spirituality in some specific way which is in your mind.
And Allah knows best.
^^^ God is merciful to all human beings
^^^ He gives spiritual knowledge to all people all over the world
^^^ I am specifically following the Vedic spiritual culture
^^^ nothing I said was my way but God's way

# Here I would have to say much more but I will answer according to your kind replies
# Thank you for nice exchange.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Nitai

nothing I said was my way but God's way

Please try to remember that you are on an interfaith forum, comprising a massive cross-section of various different faiths. To claim to represent God's way above all other paths is not something that will sit will here.

I appreciate that you probably mean well, but do try to remember your relative position in CR - one adherent of many paths represented here, many of which claim to be Absolute Truth, yet many in disagreement!