Shinto!!

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Thomas

..Originally the Way of the Warrior was 'The Way of Horse and Bow', the sword was not synonymous with the samurai then, that happened much later..

Yes the "Horse and Bow", complicates things when asking where did the Japanese come from?

With regards to the Japanese sword, looking at all the other sword styles around the world, the way the J sword and styles are, the only reason I can think of why, is by means of Shinto.

I have a hunch that the Japanese were swinging oak sticks starting from ancient times as that is the only logical weapon, prior to metallurgy reaching Japan. The horse and Bow are obviously imports when you think about it.

Having a family tree is a Shinto thing (fact), maybe not to all Shintoist, fyi. Thus the stick(staff) weapon, but its just a logical assumption of mine.

TK

p.s. what did the druids hold as weapons? if anyone knows.

[c0de]

I don't know about the Druids, but the only European fighting system
I ever had any respect for was Fencing. Recently, I have lost much of
my respect for Eastern martial arts as well. Ever since the advent of
Brazilian JuiJitsu which basically made all other forms of fighting obsolete.
Turns out all that focus on rigid forms was a waste of time after all...
High flying jumping kicks and all that flexibility doesnt really do much
in a real world scenario either... Ninjitsu and Judo I think are the few
martial arts in the Eastern world which have an all-round ground fighting
and joint-locking techniques still relevant today.

Nevertheless, I am in love, and will always be in love with the Katana.
Iado especially, the grace, the power, the patience... its a meditation
in and of itself... much more so then other martial arts...

Outdated as it might be, I still love practicing with my red oak
Suburi Boken. I rather mess around with that then my air rifle any day...

[wil]

Originally Posted by c0de

Recently, I have lost much of
my respect for Eastern martial arts as well. Ever since the advent of
Brazilian JuiJitsu which basically made all other forms of fighting obsolete.
Turns out all that focus on rigid forms was a waste of time after all...
High flying jumping kicks and all that flexibility doesnt really do much
in a real world scenario either... ...

Watching MMA today with fighters from various styles from around the world it does appear that JuiJitsu is rising to the top, but that is mostly from one on one throws and submissions... and with highly skilled fighters. But what would be the best skill in a street fight with multiple lesser skilled oponents (sans guns or blades)?

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by c0de

..Fencing..

I think fencing was a product of how metallurgy advanced in Europe. The swords got thinner and thinner. If a super high-tech sword was created nowadays, it`d probably resemble something like those fencing swords. fyi, whereas for penetration and cutting everything European pushes, the Japanese tools are meant to cut when pulled, like saws, kitchen knives etc..

Brazilian Jiujutsu is a product of old-school Judo, so I don`t really consider it as Jiujutsu, but if they call it Jiujutsu so be it, afterall it does do joint locks. Judo is a derivative of Japanese Jiujutsu but it lacks the elegance and spiritual aspects. Judo I think was more intended to be an Olympic sport for the masses. Whereas Japanese Jiujutsu is a derivative of Kobudo (ancient budo) which is a style derived from warfare from the old days. Kobudo has techniques like lock the joints, throw the person, break the bone while doing it. What we see today is more forgiving in Jiujutsu form obviously. Judo techniques can easily be modified for modern combat, but I wouldn`t expect them to be good swords man.

Mentioned by Thomas, these are the kinds of areas covered by the esoteric practioners Yamabushi`s and what I mean as the Jedi knight-like areas of Shinto martial arts. I am yet to experience all this but it is everywhere in Japanese martial arts, surprising its almost like common sense to the everyday Japanese martial arts practioner.
YouTube - Mind Body & Kick Ass Moves - Death on a beach Kuroda

This certainly seems like something that is hidden, or lost in the European cultures. It is well preserved in Asia, IMO particularly Japan (of course I would say that).


TK

[TheKhan]

Showing off a bit. what a $10k sword can do.

YouTube - 9mm Versus Katana (proud.. )

YouTube - Machine Gun vs. Katana (failure oh well.. .50caliber )

YouTube - nihonto vs watercutter (exceptionally proud.. )

TK

[c0de]

Wil + TK


@ Will

The rule in the real world is, if you are outnumbered: RUN!
Escape and Evade dude... forget fancy martial arts at that point.
You do not know which one of those guys could be carrying
a concealed knife... And as far as knife fighting styles go, I
think the most effective system is the one they use in inner-city
prisons... I think its called the stealthy-shiv-stab-you-in-the
-kidneys-when-you-aint-lookin-ryu.



@ TK

Well, the Chinese straight sword styles also focuses more on piercing
strikes rather than slashing, but the reach of the saber is longer I think
this is an enormous advantage. But as for comparing the actual method/styles...
I think its about the individual holding the blade and not the other way around.
Fencing however can definitely hold its own against any eastern weapon system.
(I'd still pick the Katana though, just because...)

btw, thanks for the Kurada beach vid man, i favourite'd it immediatly
there are some other great ones too in the related vids section

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by c0de

..as for comparing the actual method/styles...
I think its about the individual holding the blade and not the other way around.

I agree.

For fun, this is modern kendo vs. fencing. The fencing guy is good.
YouTube - Kendo vs Fencing

I want kendo to become an Olympic sport some day like Judo. Kendo is not like the traditional Japanese sword arts, footwork is different, although derived from it, fyi.

TK

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by wil

.. But what would be the best skill in a street fight with multiple lesser skilled oponents (sans guns or blades)?

Well run first.

An option to fight is, if one is getting chased by like 200 guys and cornered, you get into the narrowest hallway possible and deal with 2-3, ideally 1 person(s) at a time. With a machine gun, they`d think twice if not wearing body armor. If bodyarmored you gotta hope you disable or knock people out so that they`d stack up on each other and get in the way of each other. This sounds familiar right? But I gotta say, that seems like the last option when getting chased around by hundreds of people.

I saw a water bird with a long beak do this against a swarm of seagulls once. The water bird made sure that he could only be attacked from 1 direction, then he pointed his beak in that direction. It was cool to see the strategy in action.

TK

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by TheKhan

Yes the "Horse and Bow", complicates things when asking where did the Japanese come from?

Agreed.

Originally Posted by TheKhan

With regards to the Japanese sword, looking at all the other sword styles around the world, the way the J sword and styles are, the only reason I can think of why, is by means of Shinto.

Oh, absolutely! Whilst the sword is common to the world, the sword and kenjutsu is distinctly Japanese, whilst iaijutsu (draw and cut in one fluid movement) is uniquely Japanese.

Originally Posted by TheKhan

I have a hunch that the Japanese were swinging oak sticks starting from ancient times as that is the only logical weapon, prior to metallurgy reaching Japan. The horse and Bow are obviously imports when you think about it.

Well the Japanese were 'imports' were they not, from the standpoint of the aboriginal Ainu? But you've got a point. I saw one sensei discussing the origins of weapons in agricultural tools. Also the similarity of footwork in some sword schools compared to the shuffle of a farmer hoeing a field.

Originally Posted by TheKhan

p.s. what did the druids hold as weapons? if anyone knows.

The trouble with the West is that we never stuck with one style and evolved it to its maximum potential as did Japan with the sword. We continually switched sword types, not only as metallurgy improved but according to exchanges with neighbour cultures.

However, I once knew an old Norfolk Boy who used to make willow hand-guards he insisted were used by men and boys training to use the quarterstaff. So I think we did have a tradition of sword and also stick arts, but we lost them chasing the novelty of the next new thing.

A stout stick, in the hands of a capable man, will put a sword to shame. Also, the dynamics of a stick, which is one piece through-and-through, can in some cases be superior to a sword, which is a metal blade held by pegs in a hilt. It's to do with the physics/dynamics of the peg that holds the sword in the hilt. It was suggested this was why some swordsmen preferred using a wooden stick against a blade (bloomin' risky, though!).

Thomas

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by c0de

I don't know about the Druids, but the only European fighting system I ever had any respect for was Fencing.

Well, I have great respect for the volley fire of the British musket. Even during WW1, the rate of fire of the British infantryman led his enemies to believe he was armed with a semi-automatic weapon.

Then there's drill! In the Peninsula War, the performance of the Light Division under the legendary Black Bob Crauford, cut off and surrounded by French cavalry, was an exemplar of 'fire and manouvre' and is regarded as one of the best examples of combined tactics and timing of Crauford, who brought them out with hardly a loss.

Originally Posted by c0de

Turns out all that focus on rigid forms was a waste of time after all... High flying jumping kicks and all that flexibility doesnt really do much in a real world scenario either...

We-e-e-e-l ... I agree that jump kicks have become the stuff of Hollywood. A jujutsu man told me the only time they were used was by men on foot to take a man out of the saddle. And Judo but that old 'throw someone twice your own weight' only works if that someone walks into it blind and off balance.

Then again, aikido has 'read world' application ... and what I've seen of aikijutsu is devastating.

Originally Posted by c0de

Nevertheless, I am in love, and will always be in love with the Katana. Iado especially, the grace, the power, the patience... its a meditation in and of itself... much more so then other martial arts...

My brother!

True Story:
One day my daughter came home from work, and as she walked into the lounge, I was walking out. One of my sticks was standing by the door — just a stout, bokken-length stick I'd picked up in a wood. I scooped up the stick, swung and stopped half an inch from her skull. "See that?" I asked. "Most people would do that in two or three moves, but not the Japanese, one fluid move. Brilliant, isn't it? Such art, such economy, such beauty!"
What I did not realise was that she didn't know I was in the house. I scared the living doodads out of her. She still tells her friends about it.

Thomas

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by wil

But what would be the best skill in a street fight with multiple lesser skilled oponents (sans guns or blades)?

I followed a discussion on a US martial arts site among serving police officers, so guys with experience of both worlds. The final agreement was, the best skill in a fight (clearing a house was the topic under discussion) was to send in the dogs, and stand back ...

I recall as a kid the horror of reading about a 5th-dan Karate guy who went to someone's assistance and was killed — by a drunk.

Thomas

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Thomas

Oh, absolutely! Whilst the sword is common to the world, the sword and kenjutsu is distinctly Japanese, whilst iaijutsu (draw and cut in one fluid movement) is uniquely Japanese.

I've never considered the Shinto influence on the development of Kempo before...

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by c0de

And as far as knife fighting styles go, I think the most effective system is the one they use in inner-city prisons... I think its called the stealthy-shiv-stab-you-in-the -kidneys-when-you-aint-lookin-ryu.

I've read of a similar samurai technique, you pass the guy in the street, then as he passes, tip his hat forward over his head, and cut him down.

Originally Posted by c0de

Well, the Chinese straight sword styles also focuses more on piercing strikes rather than slashing, but the reach of the saber is longer I think this is an enormous advantage.

I would argue otherwise. Some ryu use very long swords, some ryu use comparatively short blades — my iai blade length is determined by the reach of my arm for a comfortable draw. Length doesn't matter, it's have you got the small spherical pendula it takes to 'get in and do the business'.

But stabbing with a straight blade means the blade is, for a time, stuck in your opponent's body, which is a huge disadvantage if multiple opponents. Whereas with the curved blade it's primarily slice 'n' dice — the blade is free of the body (although a stabbing technique was one of my 'favourite five' at demos). I think for that reason the curved cutter is better all-round than the straight stabber. Again, stabbing multiple opponents requires a piston action, whereas the katana can flow gracefully from one to the next ...

Re East and West ... don't know, but I will brag at this point and say my brother in law, now 7th dan kyoshi, is the only Brit to reach the finals of the Japan Kendo Championships. He was up against a Japanese, and there was no way a Brit was going to win, but it was a split decision, and for a time — 15 minutes — he was famous in Japan.

Thomas

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Thomas

..Well the Japanese were 'imports' were they not, from the standpoint of the aboriginal Ainu? But you've got a point. I saw one sensei discussing the origins of weapons in agricultural tools..

Hmm.. well there are many theories on the origin of the Japanese. There is a theory that a group of Ainu came from the north, invaded the south, forgot they came from the north, and then invaded the north again. Then there`s the mainstream theory that the main culture came(started) from the south (most likely the horse and bow people, and possibly the bronze or iron age IMO) from a foreign country. I`ve even heard a theory from a Chinese guy in the US that Japan was sort of a resort for Chinese aristocrats, who defected and decided to stay in Japan. There`s the Sumerian theory. And all of this could be all true, I think.

I personally view Japan as the ancient America of Asians starting from historic times. When someone wants to leave mainland Asia, there`s only one place you can go if you don`t want to go south or Siberia, and not be bothered by many people. And that is Japan.

I read somewhere (I might be a bit shaky on the numbers..)that Japanese DNA is roughly, 40% Chinese, 30% Korean(mongolian), 20% native, 2%unknown (forgot the 8%). Japanese are mostly born with the Mongolian blue butt birthmark which probably means we are not just Chinese. The 2% unknown.. I suspect DNA like Sumerians.. its a mystery.

I have purple rims on my eye pupils, and if you look closely they are others like me.

Originally Posted by Thomas

A stout stick, in the hands of a capable man, will put a sword to shame.

Absolutely! fyi, My gandma who came from a Samurai family told me blades got rough edged after like 2 kills and after about 5 kills the sword would reach its limits in terms of cutting(this signify`s how tough people are when they are alive because I was told that dead things couldn`t do the same to the J sword). So from there on, I assume it was about stabbing people. So its nothing like the Samurai movies like ridding 50 bad guys in clean slashes etc..

An oak stick is absolutely lethal when put in hands of swinging experts. My point with the stick was somewhat, I personally think maybe even in the stone age, whomever was in Japan was probably starting the origins of Japanese swordsmanship. It might have been the same for everyone on the planet, and I think stick cultures could have started even that far back in history.

TK

p.s. I like the fact that some prominent figures in history held sticks or talked about it.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by TheKhan

Well run first.

A famous master said the first rule of swordsmanship is: Don't get hit.

Originally Posted by TheKhan

I saw a water bird with a long beak do this against a swarm of seagulls once. The water bird made sure that he could only be attacked from 1 direction, then he pointed his beak in that direction. It was cool to see the strategy in action.

Yagyu Shinkage Ryu teaches something like 'circling crows' from the way a flock of birds spirals on take-off or landing. So when one against millions, you circle, they're surrounded! You keep moving, so they can never form up against you, don't let them surround you, and then pick 'em off, one by one.

Psychology helps — if fighting a hundred, 90 will hesitate to let the courageous 10 rush in first. Not everyone's a battle-mad hero.

Yagyu Munenori was riding escort with Tokugawa Ieyasu at the 2nd Battle of Osaka (1612?). They were over a mile from the 'front' when the party was jumped by a group of the enemy, some kind of deep penetration fighting patrol. Panic ensued, as no-one expected to have to fight, I'm not even sure everyone was in armour.

Munenori was, and true to his calling he was ever vigilant. He immediately attacked by running across the enemy front, and began to turn and corral the enemy force. In a matter of moments he took out seven men, all in full armour. This is a prodigious feat of swordsmanship (modern films make it look a doddle), an almost unprecedented feat and I think the only one recorded historically by eye-witnesses.

The speed and devastating effect of his riposte allowed the party to recover their wits (zanshin), organise a defence of Tokugawa and attack the foe, but he had already broken their spirit.

Thomas