Shinto!!

[17th Angel]

No Shinto In the Eastern area?

Any That follow the way of shinto or from Japan here? lol....

Looking into it more I have researched for the past two days.... And I was just looking at the photo of Shintoists carrying the Mikoshi..... And They look like they are having so much fun lol.... I'd love to join in on that festival lol... Is it just the festivals and the fun? Or is there more to it than that personally for you (the Shintoist) Like apart from the oharai and the misogi..... There isn't much to really define Shinto as a religion... Right? (cringes lol)

[seattlegal]

Brian has a section on Shinto here:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/shinto/
On the left hand menu, you can read The Kojiki, The Nihongi, and The Yengishiki.

[17th Angel]

Muchas Gracias...

We need to go round up some shintoists :\ Never spoken to a shintoist as far as I am aware... Something I must do some day.

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Alex P

..Never spoken to a shintoist as far as I am aware... Something I must do some day..

I`m here if you want to talk. Technically I consider myself to be Shinto-Buddhist Christian accordingly to what I am. But between Shinto and Buddhism I gear myself towards Shinto more than Buddhism. I also consider any Japanese who sits in a chair to be Shinto-Buddhist who was influenced by Christianity although Japanese are in denial for no reason. A Japanese Christian may insist that people are either Christian or not.

What ancient Shintoist may have pursued in present day, is Shinto-Buddhist Christianity in modern times, although I view that our capacity as Shintoists have somewhat deteriorated probably due to buddhist influences. Buddhism is an import in Japan by Shinto imperial orders and they dominate Japanese religious practice by enjoying somewhat a monopoly on funeral and new years ( J Christmas) practices.

If this famous warlord called Oda Oda Nobunaga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Shaka Zulu equivalent of Japan) was not assassinated (possibly by J Christians..)when he united the country after centuries of war, Japan might have had normal Christianity this present day. It doesn`t say much in the wiki, but Oda was the most ruthless, feared warlord ever to be seen in Japanese history credited to end centuries of civil war. He is the only famous warlord in Japan known to take no hostages. His descendant is a happy world class ice figure skater now, you`ll probably see him twirling around at the winter Olympics.

I view Shintoists as a flexible bunch, willing to integrate and mix cultures. Shrines are like wishing wells. Clean natural water is considered to purify our bodies, the religious, go to waterfalls to gain knowledge by meditating under waterfalls.

The festivals you see, are exactly as you see it. We sometimes push around things similar to an ark, sometimes have huge drum concerts, sometimes ride logs downhill, hold onto huge fireworks as displays, get all drunk and get into t-strings depending on where you are and have a blast. Although I think we`re kind of trying to lose the t-string traditions.

Peace.

TK

[c0de]

If anyone has any intell on Shinto's influence on Bushido...
please kindly hand over your 2 cents (yes, you are being robbed)

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Alex P

There isn't much to really define Shinto as a religion... Right? (cringes lol)

But it is a religion.

In Japan the deal is bring your kids up Shinto, for all the festivals, processions, fireworks, etc.,
Then become Christian for a white wedding,
Then become a Buddhist when you start thinking about your mortality.

It may be of interest to know that Shinto was far more influential on the samurai than Zen — the latter is quite late and derives from the peacetime restructuring of the idealised image of the noble warrior ... but during the Era of Warring States, it was primarily Shinto.

Thomas

[c0de]

Originally Posted by Thomas

It may be of interest to know that Shinto was far more influential on the samurai than Zen — the latter is quite late and derives from the peacetime restructuring of the idealised image of the noble warrior ... but during the Era of Warring States, it was primarily Shinto.

So first came Budhism, then Shinto, then Bushido, then Zen Budhism...
Pre 5th century, 5 century, 9-12 Century and 12th century respectively...

I have noticed Shinto beliefs are ever present in Japanese popular
culture. I watched a couple of animes that have the concept of
animism and spirits as a central theme. However, how much does this
animism overlap with other traditions?

I know there is one sect (mainly practiced in Okinawa) which
recognizes the concept of a "hell". Also, there is a Chinese version of
Buddhism which also recognizes levels of hell... Shinto, I am not too
sure about... however, what about Bushido? Which manner of after-life
does it adopt (if any) and from which of these traditions?

The question which seems to fascinate me is the strong attachment that
Bushido has with death. Yet, there is no obvious hints towards any
afterlife... I mean, total sacrifice is one thing, but for the bare purpose
of serving mortal masters? Or is the dedication to the principle itself?
This relates to all eastern religion in a sense, Shinto & Buddhism especially.

Also, what seems to be a contradiction here is the connection with
Confucianism. If the loyalty is to the principle itself, then how can
Confucianistic emphasis on filial piety be reconciled with the loyalty
to the ideal?

.... hope these questions dont distract away from the subject of
Shinto... But since Shinto is so connected in spirit to Buddism and
hence the whole tradition of Eastern Religions, I think they can fit
in here somewhere...

[c0de]

nevermind, got the answer via PM
sorry for detracting from the subject

(someone should start a thread about this other stuff though)

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Thomas

..It may be of interest to know that Shinto was far more influential on the samurai ..

Shinto is Japanese martial arts, and a bit more. Primarily I see J martial arts as the two handed sword, which is the most powerful J weapon prized by Samurai`s. The Japanese sword is made accordingly with Shinto traditions, no buddhism there.

All the other J martial arts are probably of buddhist origin originating from Karate (boxing, ninja etc..).

Oh, and after I posted in this thread it reminded me that I read somewhere that "death" is evil in Shinto, which makes a lot of sense to me. As opposed to Buddhism which make a good living out of it these days.

TK

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by c0de

..The question which seems to fascinate me is the strong attachment that Bushido has with death..

This was primarily an influence of Confucianism(loyalty) imported by the Tokugawa shogunates which was founded by the third closest comrad of Oda mentioned above.The shogunates enjoyed a long lasting peace, and in order to accomplish that they imported Confucianist thoughts.

I have no idea what Shinto pure concept of afterlife is, if there are any......??

TK

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Thomas

In Japan the deal is bring your kids up Shinto, for all the festivals, processions, fireworks, etc.,
Then become Christian for a white wedding,
Then become a Buddhist when you start thinking about your mortality.

This is also very true.
But now that I see it in writing I can see how non-Japanese might think of this as unusual..
its absolutely weird!!..

This one guy I knew in LA called the Japanese(Shinto) culture as a culture that pursues super-pop as in pop culture.

Anyways, I`m thinking about marrying like a Samurai (would depend on what the wife says though, she`d probably want a white wedding), and then eventually attending church as I have no worries that I`ll not become a shinto-buddhist anytime soon. But someone needs to comeup with a Shinto-church so that I can keep my traditions as well. I like nicely spread out laid back Christian cemeteries.

TK

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by TheKhan

Shinto is Japanese martial arts, and a bit more. Primarily I see J martial arts as the two handed sword, which is the most powerful J weapon prized by Samurai`s.

Again, only latterly, I would say. The great sword schools did not emerge until the late fifteenth century. Originally the Way of the Warrior was 'The Way of Horse and Bow', the sword was not synonymous with the samurai then, that happened much later. In battle, the weapon par excellence was the spear, until the arquebus did for blade weapons.

I was a sometime-exponent of Muso Shinden Ryu swordsmanship, so for me the sword is the business! At a demonstration of martial arts, the sword always takes pride of place. But give the bow its due ... I once watched a demonstration of yabusame (horseback archery) ... impressive!

Originally Posted by TheKhan

The Japanese sword is made accordingly with Shinto traditions, no buddhism there. All the other J martial arts are probably of buddhist origin originating from Karate (boxing, ninja etc..).

The sword, yes ... I'm not too sure about the other stuff. But then the history is very clouded.

The great Ryu taught 'flexible skills' (wrestling), and other hand-to-hand combat skills, of which Sumo is a derivation. If you're having a punch-up with a bloke in full armour, the best (and maybe only) way is to get him on the ground, then stab him (think of the Sumo grip).

Again, ninja training is steeped in shugendo lore, and the practitioner of shugendo (shugenja) were also known as yamabushi (one who lies in the mountains), from the inhospitable mountain regions where the sect of austere asceticism flourished. Yamabushi were almost legendary in their martial powers, a mix of Shinto, Tendai Buddhism, mikkyo ...

Senei Usui, 'founder' of Reiki, was a high-ranking master swordsman — he served in a lowly position in the Japanese delegation to China, which makes him a bodyguard or a spy or both in my book — and his realisation came after practising a 20-day Tendai ritual.

(In recent history, Paddy Ashdown, a British politician, was a one-time member of the Special Boat Service (SAS in boats), a linguist who knew numerous Chinese dialects. He turns up as the second-reserve-window cleaner or something at the British Embassy in China ... a spook, for sure!)

There is no doubt that Buddhism played into the martial training methodology — the samurai would use anything that works! Same with 'imported' empty hand skills from China, Okinawa and elsewhere. They learnt the art of metalurgy from Korea, Japanese swords had a tendency to snap until they followed Korean methods.

As you point out, the Tokugawa Shogunate utilised Confucianism to 'restructure' the samurai ideal, along with Buddhism and Shinto. Zen [layed a big part in this, and was already influencing the sword schools.

BTW:
Are you sure about Christians implicated in Oda's assassination? He was their best bet, surely? Without him, they had no real support and a lot of opposition. After his death, their position deteriorated rapidly ... but sheesh, our missionaries were also political meddlers, for sure!

Oda Nobunaga was a mercurial and probably unbalanced personality, you never knew where you stood, and he treated his vassals very badly, by all accounts. Akechi Mitsuhide suffered more than most, and it must have come as no real surprise when Akechi attacked Oda.

I know history is written by the victor, but by all accounts Tokugawa Ieyasu dealt very fairly with his retainers, never betrayed any of them, and stayed true to his word. As a result, from the age of 16 on he began to attract vassals who remained loyal to him throughout, so that when he fought his later major battles, notably the 'big one' at Sekigahara, he had the advantage of a unified force opposed by an uneasy coalition (of which a significant proportion deserted to the Tokugawa as soon as they got a sniff of his likely victory).

Anyway, if you're still awake, thanks for jogging the old grey cells. I haven't thought about this stuff for years.

Thomas

[wil]

When I asked the Japanese I've met about Shinto for them it was more of a cultural thing than a religion. They had various religions or none that they were attached to but Shinto was in the background, tradition, honoring parents, honoring ancestors. They 'asked' their ancestors for advice, they listened within for responses, they felt the ancestors watched over them.

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by Thomas

BTW:
Are you sure about Christians implicated in Oda's assassination? He was their best bet, surely? Without him, they had no real support and a lot of opposition.

I`m not sure. Thats why I put the question mark, and its a conspiracy theory that I wouldn`t be too surprised if it were true considering what the Roman Catholic missions wanted. If you check into Akechi, his third daughter was a devout Roman Catholic (Gratia Hosokawa).

Originally Posted by Thomas

After his death, their position deteriorated rapidly ... but sheesh, our missionaries were also political meddlers, for sure!

Yes.. the missionaries were super political meddlers more evident looking at it from the western side (not that other religious sects weren`t). I wouldn`t be surprised if they tried to highjack the unification through Akechi, or were planning somekind of revolution assuming absolute chaos would strike. Seems familiar to me knowing a bit about European history.

I personally observe and assume the possibilities that similar things were attempted towards Zulu`s by protestants, so thats why I`m somewhat suspicious about this, although not a big deal. But then again when one is surrounded by tradition, some feel strongly about preserving tradition, and that is another possible motivation for the assassinations. Oda or Shaka Zulu weren`t notoriously known to be traditional, but rather a beginning in being International.

TK

[TheKhan]

Originally Posted by wil

When I asked the Japanese I've met about Shinto for them it was more of a cultural thing than a religion. They had various religions or none that they were attached to but Shinto was in the background, tradition, honoring parents, honoring ancestors.

Thats mostly true, for most Japanese it is just a culture. But in fact its like a Jedi knight-like religion in the back ground when one checks it out.

Originally Posted by wil

They 'asked' their ancestors for advice, they listened within for responses, they felt the ancestors watched over them.

I don`t know what sect they are from but that sounds like either a family tradition or something a buddhist sect might preach. But then again I wouldn`t be surprised if a Japanese couldn`t quite distinguish the both in some areas. I clearly come from emphasis on Shinto traditions and thats why its obvious but some may be geared more heavily on buddhism.

TK