Should the Catholic church just Die Quietly?

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Well, not quite Die, let me explain.

Church congregations in the west are falling because more and more free thinking people are disagreeing with various points of church dogma. Homosexuality, contraceptives, female priests etc.

Is it right for the church to change it's doctrines to suit the congregation and bring worshippers back? or should the catholic church stick to its guns and simply accept that a lot of people disagree with it, knowing that congregations (and offerings on the plate) will fall.

[KnightoftheRose]

You're ignoring the fact the Catholicism remains strong in South America, and is growing in places like Africa and Asia, where the people want conservative traditions.

America and Europe ain't the only two places in the world, y'know.

[didymus]

If this were a boxing match Catholicism would be on the ropes in the 12th round. They did rally with the speedy election of the new pope but there are still many issues that need to be addressed. We are in the age of mass information at the touch a button. Issues that were suppressed over the years are being uncovered by the masses. Scrolls and texts deemed heretical are on peoples bookshelves. We are in an age that is seeking truth diligently and the people aren't satisfied with evasive, insufficient answers. The truth will be revealed. There is nowhere to hide. The Catholic Church should not justify its past but rather confess its sins. Oh the sweet irony.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Well, not quite Die, let me explain.

Church congregations in the west are falling because more and more free thinking people are disagreeing with various points of church dogma. Homosexuality, contraceptives, female priests etc.

Is it right for the church to change it's doctrines to suit the congregation and bring worshippers back? or should the catholic church stick to its guns and simply accept that a lot of people disagree with it, knowing that congregations (and offerings on the plate) will fall.

Kind of like asking someone if they want real lemonade, or just yellow colored water...

The Catholic church does not have to change its position on things in the least. It is what it is. The congregation however must choose whether it wishes to follow the doctrines of the church as defined...or go elsewhere.

The worst thing a ship and crew can have in a storm is an "anchor" that will not hold fast.

Whether I as a Catholic agree with the Church on things or not is irrelevant. The fact that the Church does not give in to outside pressure on its principles is what holds my respect and admiration (hence my loyalty).

my two cents in the poor box

v/r

Q

[Bandit]

yah. that is what i should do. join the free thinking religion. Of course there are no sins or mistakes with them & the whopper Grandioso theories... & I can just think think think about how much better & smarter I am than the Bible.

[Faithfulservant]

I think there is a real danger in churches becoming people pleasers in order to bring people back into the fold. Its not biblical and its not what the Holy Spirit will consider His home. The Holy Spirit is who calls the people to God not the churches that call people to God..

[I, Brian]

The idea that Catholicism is at the mercy of free-thinking movements is a few centuries old now, but it still continues to be an organisation of profound influence and reach.

Perhaps ironically, it seems that where it has lost influence, it has not necessarily been to free-thinking movements, as much supplanted by different theological organisations, not least the Reform movement.

2c.

[JJM]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Kind of like asking someone if they want real lemonade, or just yellow colored water...

The Catholic church does not have to change its position on things in the least. It is what it is. The congregation however must choose whether it wishes to follow the doctrines of the church as defined...or go elsewhere.

The worst thing a ship and crew can have in a storm is an "anchor" that will not hold fast.

Whether I as a Catholic agree with the Church on things or not is irrelevant. The fact that the Church does not give in to outside pressure on its principles is what holds my respect and admiration (hence my loyalty).

my two cents in the poor box

v/r

Q

Amen

The most important thing to remember is that the Catholic Church can't change its beliefs. Many non-Catholics and even Catholics don't realize this. A faithful Catholic believes that the world will end before the Catholic Church teaches falsehood. In the mind of a Catholic for the church to change a teaching is to say that Christ is a liar and thus not God. It won't ever happen and if it does then Christianity is a false religion. I saw a sign on a church in the area it said “If moral were up for debate Christ wouldn’t have had to die”

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Originally Posted by JJM

The most important thing to remember is that the Catholic Church can't change its beliefs.

And yet we are now allowed to eat meat on Fridays, heretics are no longer burned at the stake and the question of whether angels exist has become a purely personel decision. Certainly the big point of "God made us Jesus saved us" cannot be altered, but the smaller points have changed many times in the last 2000 years.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

And yet we are now allowed to eat meat on Fridays, heretics are no longer burned at the stake and the question of whether angels exist has become a purely personel decision. Certainly the big point of "God made us Jesus saved us" cannot be altered, but the smaller points have changed many times in the last 2000 years.

These things were instituted after, not during the formation of the Catholic Church. So, I guess we have to say that a Pope can be fallible, in things human. They are also not Biblical, (hence the Bible remains intact). "JJM don't go there".

Meat and fish. You will laugh when you realize why fish was on Friday...just to make sure the church got paid on Sunday. With all the beef around, the local fishermen were going broke. Not a biblical edict at all. It has been lifted since. But some of us still cling to fish on Friday. (including me). Because what I do is for the Lord, and harms no one.

Whether angels exist or not has always been a personal decision. Angels don't just pop out of the wood work. Not unless you watch reruns of baseball...and if they do arrive, most would be hard pressed to advertise it. I think an angel's apperance is rather personal...don't you?

Heretic? Try to burn me. You might find I'm a bit more than you bargained for.

Normally I'm a nice guy...but I am a quick study.


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[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Yes, but the controvertial issues facing the church today were also mostly post-biblical issues. No condoms in the bible, and the issue of female priests would never have come up because of the naturally recessive role of women in biblical society. Homosexuality of course is clearly not cool in the old testament, but Jesus contradicted a lot of Old Testament teachings and I dont think he ever explicitly said that it was wrong, these are all issues that the organised church has decided upon and are therefore surely open to alteration.

Also, I know leviticus says "no man should lay with a man as he would lay with a woman" or words to that effect, but what about lesbianism, any thoughts?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Yes, but the controvertial issues facing the church today were also mostly post-biblical issues. No condoms in the bible, and the issue of female priests would never have come up because of the naturally recessive role of women in biblical society. Homosexuality of course is clearly not cool in the old testament, but Jesus contradicted a lot of Old Testament teachings and I dont think he ever explicitly said that it was wrong, these are all issues that the organised church has decided upon and are therefore surely open to alteration.

Also, I know leviticus says "no man should lay with a man as he would lay with a woman" or words to that effect, but what about lesbianism, any thoughts?

No women in the Roman Catholic priesthood. Celtic Catholics were a different matter all together. I can't argue with the homosexual/lesbian issue...

But I will point out that homosexuality is no greater in sin than taking an old woman's purse, or coveting the neighbor's possessions.

When God says something is an abomination, He's saying it turns His stomach. Hard to do to God...don't you think?

But is that sin any greater or less than any other? No.

No condoms because no sex outside of marriage. That is a no brainer. Sex outside of marriage means you take your chances....very simple.

A man and wife figure out the "rythm method". They learn to know eachother so well, that they can play. Strangers cannot. Coitus interuptus is not fun for anyone. It is excitement and fear at the same time...where is the fun in that?

I play with my mate (my wife). She play's back. No fear.

Jesus is kind. That is why we are still here.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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Q

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

But I will point out that homosexuality is no greater in sin than taking an old woman's purse, or coveting the neighbor's possessions.

Not sure what you're point is here, but if you're trying to convince me that homosexuality isnt so terrible then I wouldnt bother, I dont have a problem with it at all.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No condoms because no sex outside of marriage. That is a no brainer. Sex outside of marriage means you take your chances....very simple.

Where in the bible does it say that you cant have sex outside of marriage

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Where's the fun in that?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

Not sure what you're point is here, but if you're trying to convince me that homosexuality isnt so terrible then I wouldnt bother, I dont have a problem with it at all.

Where in the bible does it say that you cant have sex outside of marriage


Where's the fun in that?

be careful.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

Careful of what? Im not being deliberately beligerent here, I really dont understand.