signs of the holy ghost

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Considering I know a bit about languages, and have heard the so called speaking in tongues, on more than one occasion, well let's just say I'm not entirely convinced it is anything but wishful thinking. For one thing, languages have an order, rhythm and syntax that can be identified easily, whether the language is understood or not. Most of what I heard was repetetive gibberish.

Reminds me of another Kenyan story. Same pastor and his wife. They were telling me about people they had heard speaking in tongues, that it sounded like they were repeatedly and quickly saying, "she came riding on a honda"

[Faithfulservant]

I believe that tongues are gift the Spirit still gives... I believe its only a personal gift for your own edification..I think that groaning in the Spirit is pretty much the same thing.. you dont know what to pray for so you let the Spirit pray for you. I do not believe that tongues should be spoken w/o an interpreter in public and Ive yet to meet someone with the gift to interpret tongues.

[Faithfulservant]

What is Borat? Some pentecostal churches are hard core and some are more conservative... Some pentecostals believe that being saved and speaking in tongues is synonymous.. that to be truly saved you have to have tongues. they do it openly and theres always someone that interprets and they say "so speak the lord" its all very unbiblical and its called a charismatic church. You even get more hardcore when they use snakes. a more conservative pentecostal church just strongly believe in the gifts of the Spirit.. all of them.. and that they be used to serve the body of Christ. My belief system is somewhere in between pentecostal (conservative) and fundamentlism (big surprise) but I dont hold to "religion" so I dont label myself with a denomination.. I just follow Christ.

denominations are labels and all they do is put walls up dividing the body of Christ. Its a shame really.. what would happen if we took all the walls down.. the denominations.. the social classes.. the genders.. the age groups...

[Thomas]

is speaking in tongues really a sign of the holy spirit or are the scriptures in acts and corinthians only valid for those times?

The 'speaking in tongues' in Acts refers to the miracle of the Apostles speaking to people in their own language:

"... the multitude came together, and were confounded in mind, because that every man heard them speak in his own tongue. And they were all amazed, and wondered, saying: Behold, are not all these that speak Galilean? And how have we heard, every man our own tongue wherein we were born? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and inhabitants of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews also, and proselytes, Cretes, and Arabians: we have heard them speak in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."
Acts 2:6-11

In Corinthians Paul is referring, somewhat dubiously, to the ecstatic utterances of those supposedly infused with the Holy Spirit. It's something he'd rather say 'no' to, but it would seem that might raise too much argument, so he settles for the fact that such phenomena is for 'personal edification' only – it is not prophecy, nor instruction.

i know there is two types of speaking in tongues the first being praying to god
Not necessarily. If one is in an ecstatic trance, one is not consciously praying... therefore there is a question of what precisely are you doing?

and the second being prophesising in tongues followed by a spirit led interpretation. Is this interpretation of mine correct
Again, there is no record of Scripture in 'prophecying in tongues' – the prophets spoke in plain language.

As well as this I was wondering if it is justifiable when a whole congregation speaks in tongues
Again, this is questionable.

The distinction lies in the area of whether the person or persons has actually 'lost control' ... whether they are so overwhelmed by the experience that they lose their sense of self - in which case it's 'valid' and 'authentic' as a response – but it's an unfortunate by-product of a profound experience (a bit like hysterics at a rock concert) and someone more spiritually developed would not react or respond in the same way; or whether the Holy Spirit is inducing such a state ... the question is then why? It does nothing for the spirit, nothing for the individual, and nothing for an audience ... so why?

Ecstacies - whether self induced or otherwise - are a common feature of all religious experience, and St Paul was dealing with people introducing 'alien' habits into their spiritual practice. I don't think its part of Jewish liturgical practice, nor is it Christian, but it is a means of expression in some cultures and so has to be viewed against cultural practice ....

... but in short I would say its that. It's a human response to the Spirit, not a Spirit induced reaction in the human, and it should be questioned, psychologically (the easiest person to convince is ourselves).

The state of ecstatic prayer is, from every source I've read, quiet and self-contained, there's no element of exhibitionism, just intense concentration...

As for the East African revival movement, active in Kenya and elsewhere, is back by American Fundamentalist Christians and is the cause of a great deal of social unrest and ill-health. There was a TV News item about it in the UK. It's all part of the End-Time thing, which certain Fundamentalists want to 'bring on' as fast as they can ... so the message is don't bother sending your kids to school, or working your farm, as the world's about to end anyway ... it shows a marked lack of irresponsibility, if not disrespect.

And Scripture states that if a man won't work for his supper, then don't feed him – so they're not even Scriptural.

+++

As a closing thought, I've heard that if you listen to the speeches of Adolf Hitler, then often he would slide into near incomprehensible shouting, but by that time his audience is so hyped up they were not listening anyway ... certainly not a sign of the Spirit at work.

Thomas

[cavalier]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

What is Borat?

I guess he's talking about, "Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan"

go to Ministry of Information - Borat's Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by cavalier

I guess he's talking about, "Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan"

go to Ministry of Information - Borat's Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan

Thanks for the link

[wil]

Borat is a satyrical low budget, major profit film. The lead is Jewish, Oxford educated and abuses in his bits every nationality and religion and societal norm known to man. Nothing is untouched.

The reference in question is a church he enters and films the parishoners and leaders of. His 'cover' story is that he is from Kazahkstan and is doing a documentary about America...this gets him in all sorts of situations, opens many doors, and then with his accent and feigned ignorance he pushes the envelope until it breaks.

From what I've seen of reactions...to most people it creates uneasiness regarding the victims of his satire yet hilarious as situation comedy reality movies go...until he offends you. Of course he is an equal opportunity offender and starts out, and continues to put both Jews and anti-semetic thinking on the line throughout.

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by cavalier

Reminds me of another Kenyan story. Same pastor and his wife. They were telling me about people they had heard speaking in tongues, that it sounded like they were repeatedly and quickly saying, "she came riding on a honda"

No, no.

It's "She come in on a Honda, She left in a Yamaha."

(You have to say it quickly to get the right effect.)

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

What is Borat?

Trash.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth

Have you ever experienced it?

I have once... Me and a few friends.. All of us... But then it occured to us... I thought, haven't you been smoking Peyote for six straight days, and couldn't some of this maybe be in your head? (stolen from zoolander....)

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by cavalier

I guess he's talking about, "Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan"

go to Ministry of Information - Borat's Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan

i think he was showing among many things the intolerance of jews that many europeans still hold.