Sin and Redemption

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Prober

Thank you, inhumility, for this post.

Hi Prober/Mark!
I thank you for your appreciation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by inhumility
We don’t deny that as all ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH endeavored to make their followers virtuous , hence they told them ways and means how they could save themselves from the poison of sins, so did JesusYeshuaIssa. But to say that he died on Cross to lift their sins on his shoulders is not correct. First of all JesusYeshuaIssa never died on Cross, so that premise is proved untrue.


Prober : I feel differently but I'm listening...
inhumility : That is the beauty of discussion and enjoyment of it. This way we learn from one another. I would shortly start a thread here in this forum “Jesus did not die on Cross, or he died on Cross?”. You shall have to wait until such time.
Thanks for waiting patiently.
Quote:
Secondly, there is no established relationship between sins of one person with the sacrifice of another person.


Prober : Well, not person, but God...
inhumility : Could you please disclose your denomination in Christianity?
If you or your denomination subscribe to the OTBible, then one cannot rationally believe that a blemish of becoming physical could be attributed to God. The creator cannot become a creature. Kindly reflect on it, and then you would understand, please.
Quote:
Thirdly it presents a very cruel concept of God who cannot forgive sins of the human beings without sacrifice of his Son.


Prober : I don't believe that it's His son, as in "progeny". I believe Jesus is spoken of as His son in the way that each of us is God's son (or servant).
inhumility : That is the same as I believe, but other Christian posters on CR like our freinds Silas, and Pico do not. Son of God was a common usage and proverbial in OTBible. It is Paul, and those who followed him, who took it to be literally. Jesus never meant it literally. But most of the Christians believe it to be physically, to me ,there they are wrong.
Thanks for your good views.
Quote:
All human beings are said to be created on the image of God, could a Christian friend here imagine of killing his son like this? So, human conscience rejects it totally. They say God is love, contrary to this if one accepts this concept that would mean God is cruel, He could not be kind and loving to his son, so how could He be kind and loving to others?! A point to ponder, please.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

Prober : I believe He sacrifices Himself. There is only one God and there is no other. It's not that a human has to die. The only payment good enough for God is God so He makes a plan where He can come for a while to be with us.
inhumility : I would rather differ with you here, most respectfully.
He never has to come physically or literally. That’s why he since the time of Adam to date, has been sending PerfectMen, ProphetsMessengers as his representatives. You know that the Jews of the time of Moses wanted to see GodAllahYHWH physically and asked for that to Moses. They had to revert from their irrational stand as no one could see God with physical eyes. Through arguments, through signs through dreams, through visions and through Words; yes, one could strengthen one’s belief in him.

Prober: Best Regards,
Mark
inhumility : Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

[inhumility]

Hi everybody!
This is further to my post # 4 on this thread.
I want to tell my friends here that I am a follower of the rational and reason based concepts of the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi written by him mostly in Urdu and only few have been translated in English. My writings intenionally or unintentionally are influenced by him. His writings are based on Quran and other religious scriptures . If I make a mistake that is mine not his. Now coming to the topic, sin and redemption:

When we contemplate on the nature of sin from the aspect of inherent spiritual philosophy behind it and its reality our research also confirms this fact that this belief is a bad belief. The sin in reality is a poison created when a human is dispossessed of the obedience of God and deprived of His fervent love and loving memory of Him and is totally unfortunate in this respect. Like a tree when it is uprooted and is unable to suck in water from the earth its process of becoming dried up starts and all its greenery gets ruined. Just like it the individual whose heart is uprooted from the love of God, that dryness of sin prevails over him, hence its cure lies in God’s law of nature in three distinct ways:

• Love
• Istighfar which means the natural desire to press something or to remain covered and sheltered. As long as a tree has its roots imbedded in earth it hopes to get green again.
• The third cure is repentance i.e. to suck water of life with utmost humility and to bend towards God and to draw near Him to get respite from the sinful posture by doing appropriate and good works and repentance is not mere with the tongue but the completeness of repentance is with good and appropriate actions. All virtues are done with a desire to complete the repentance as all are done to draw one near God. Praying is also a means of repentance and with it we endeavor nearness to God. It is for this that God created the spirit in humans and named it soul as its real comfort is affirmation with God and His love and His obedience and that’s why it was named nafus (in Arabic diction nafus means the image of the same thing and hence it is destined to unite with God. To have connection of heart with God is like a tree in the garden which is steadfastly embedded in the earth. This is what is called heaven of a man. Like a tree that sucks in water from earth and draws water inwards from earth and through it casts out its poisonous fumes, the heart of a human is just like that he sucks in love of God by drawing water and by ousting poisonous substances and gets flourished and with great ease it throws out such hazardous substances and in God it grows and from Him it flourishes and gets its power and spreads and shows its very beautiful greenery and bears good fruits. But he who is not rooted in God he cannot draw and suck nourishing water and hence gets dried up eventually and at last drops its leaves and gets dried up and what is left are only ill shaped branches. The dryness of sin is created because of losing contact and hence its cure lies in straight and consistent contact. The law of nature stands witness to it. GodAllahYHWH hints towards it when He says in The Holy Quran : Chapter 89: Al-Fajr:

[89:28] O, thou soul at peace!
[89:29] Return to thy Lord, thou well-pleased with Him and He well-pleased with thee.
[89:30] So enter thou among My chosen servants,
[89:31] And enter thou My Garden.
Unquote.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

[Prober]

Originally Posted by inhumility

Prober : I feel differently but I'm listening...
inhumility : That is the beauty of discussion and enjoyment of it. This way we learn from one another.

I completely agree!

inhumility : Could you please disclose your denomination in Christianity?
If you or your denomination subscribe to the OTBible, then one cannot rationally believe that a blemish of becoming physical could be attributed to God. The creator cannot become a creature. Kindly reflect on it, and then you would understand, please.

I'm a Seventh-day Adventist. We believe in the OT, but I don't see your point. I'll think...

Thanks for your good views.

You are welcome!

inhumility : I would rather differ with you here, most respectfully.
He never has to come physically or literally. That’s why he since the time of Adam to date, has been sending PerfectMen, ProphetsMessengers as his representatives. You know that the Jews of the time of Moses wanted to see GodAllahYHWH physically and asked for that to Moses. They had to revert from their irrational stand as no one could see God with physical eyes. Through arguments, through signs through dreams, through visions and through Words; yes, one could strengthen one’s belief in him.

I see what you're saying here...

inhumility : Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

Thank you, again.

Best Regards,
Mark

[Pico]

Originally Posted by inhumility

The creator cannot become a creature. Kindly reflect on it, and then you would understand, please.

Why couldn't he? God is soverign, meaning he can do whatever he wants. He has total and complete power and control. Why couldn't he be born a man if he wanted to? In fact, God told us he became a Man. Jesus said "If you see me you see the Father," "The Father and I are one."

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by Pico

Why couldn't he? God is soverign, meaning he can do whatever he wants. He has total and complete power and control. Why couldn't he be born a man if he wanted to? In fact, God told us he became a Man. Jesus said "If you see me you see the Father," "The Father and I are one."

Prober : I don't believe that it's His son, as in "progeny". I believe Jesus is spoken of as His son in the way that each of us is God's son (or servant).
inhumility : That is the same as I believe, but other Christian posters on CR like our freinds Silas, and Pico do not.

I would like to ask my frieds Silas and Pico : do you also believe as I and Prober believe that Jesus only in a metaphoric sense was Son of God, not literally?
What are your denominations in Christianity, please?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

[Pico]

Originally Posted by inhumility

Prober : I don't believe that it's His son, as in "progeny". I believe Jesus is spoken of as His son in the way that each of us is God's son (or servant).
inhumility : That is the same as I believe, but other Christian posters on CR like our freinds Silas, and Pico do not.

I would like to ask my frieds Silas and Pico : do you also believe as I and Prober believe that Jesus only in a metaphoric sense was Son of God, not literally?
What are your denominations in Christianity, please?
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

I believe Jesus is who he says he is:
BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.
BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: John 10:22-30;

Which is who Peter says he is:
BibleGateway.com - Passage Lookup: Matthew 16:13-19;
*note* Peter, James, and John (each wrote books in the new testament) were Jesus' top 3 guys; they made up Jesus' high council who and were the ones who knew him the best and Jesus trusted with the most secrets. Peter himself was Jesus' number 1 guy.

Which is who the demons says he is:
BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.

Jesus is not God's son as in his offspring. The word "Son" used to describe teh "Son of God" means the one entitled to all the rights an pirvelages of.

My denomination would be Prodestant, or maybe Baptist, i guess.

[InLove]

inhumility,

Hi--some Christians, myself included, believe that Jesus is who He says He is, and that embraces the metaphorical sense as well as the literal. I don't yet know enough about Islam to know where the commonalities may lie, except that Islam recognizes some Truths spoken by Him. Silas and I do not agree on everything, however. Just posting this to hopefully help with further understanding, and not to preach.

InPeace,
InLove

[cyberpi]

Salam Alaikum,

Originally Posted by inhumility

First of all JesusYeshuaIssa never died on Cross, so that premise is proved untrue.

As I read it, the gospels show him alive and speaking after he was on the cross, but before he ascended to Allah (swt). Also in the gospel, Isa (pbuh) says that nobody takes his life except as he lays it down. So the Qur'an is true. I see no truth gained in denying that he was ever on the cross. If it were not true, then there will be a last day that everyone knows.

Originally Posted by inhumility

Secondly, there is no established relationship between sins of one person with the sacrifice of another person. Religions are deep routed in the human psyche; no other religion is known to have knowledge of such sacrifice of a Son of God being brutally killed for their sins i.e. Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, Zoroastrians, Muslims etc; all are humans if at all it should have concerned their sins GodAllahYHWH must have told them also about it.

Per the gospel it was the opposite (John 3:19)... to condemn brings condemnation. Also, Isa (pbuh) taught that there was no other way for a person except to repent and seek forgiveness. While the guilt will surely ensue, it does communicate to those who do not understand that Isa (pbuh) loved them, so that they might repent. Like patience and constancy, the sacrifice of time and opportunity, it communicates to the very soul that the prophet that was rejected was true and sincere.

Originally Posted by inhumility

Thirdly it presents a very cruel concept of God who cannot forgive sins of the human beings without sacrifice of his Son. All human beings are said to be created on the image of God, could a Christian friend here imagine of killing his son like this? So, human conscience rejects it totally. They say God is love, contrary to this if one accepts this concept that would mean God is cruel, He could not be kind and loving to his son, so how could He be kind and loving to others?! A point to ponder, please.

In Qur'an 3:55 it is seen that Allah(swt) willed to terminate Isa (pbuh). To serve Allah(swt) can definitely require sacrifice. Remember the story of Ibrahim (pbuh). Also:

Yusufali 6:162 Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds:"

Yusufali 108:2 Therefore to thy Lord turn in Prayer and Sacrifice.

Not of war, but of sacrifice to convince others to save themselves from their own sins... enjoining others to a Truth.

As for those who say that Jesus (pbuh) is God (swt), and remain convinced of their right to exclude hearing others... I think Allah (swt) is the only convincer... and does so after steps are taken by a person. Otherwise... it is just not possible.

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by InLove

inhumility,

Originally Posted by InLove

Hi--some Christians, myself included, believe that Jesus is who He says He is, and that embraces the metaphorical sense as well as the literal.
InPeace,
InLove

Hi
It is very essential in comparative study of religions, that one has clarity of one's beliefs and concepts, only then meaningful dialogue could take place. Prober has spelled his concepts well and so have I. Please don't mind, to say that it is metaphorical and literal is paradoxical. What is written in the NTBible is neither from GodAllahYHWH nor from JesusYeshuaIssa. It is written, as stated by scholars, by unknown writers approved by Church and then ascribed to disciples. It therefore becomes important that whatever is written in them must also be supported by reason, rationality, further human sources of knowledge and sciences. Only then a clear picture would emerge which would be truthful and real, worth human believing and convictions.
Thanks
I am an Ahmadi - a peaceful faith in Islam

[Prober]

Originally Posted by inhumility

What is written in the NTBible is neither from GodAllahYHWH nor from JesusYeshuaIssa.

Please don't misunderstand me here. I believe the NT is God's word as well.