So how about these cartoons then, eh?

[Yaqinud Din]

The only reason these cartoons don't mock Moses and friends is because the Jewish prophets happen to be prophets in Islam, as well, so to mock them would be mocking the cartoonists' own religion. And I'm sure that sounds cynical, but given the content of those cartoons, I think it's a pretty safe bet that they're not refraining from mocking Jewish religious figures out of newfound respect of or consideration for the religious side of things.

Stop talking and bring proof show me one cartoon making fun of Joe Smith of the mormons or any other prophet because I have never seen any.

Except that to my mind, trying to portray Jews themselves as blood-sucking babykillers is insulting a religious figure. You're insulting people based on their religion- insulting a particular religious community. It's every bit as offensive as Mohammed being portrayed as a terrorist (thus insinuating that all Muslims are terrorists) to take a nasty charicature of a Jew with a big nose and peyos and show him killing Palestinian children, because it's doing the same thing as the Mohammed cartoon- expressing blatant bigotry toward an entire religious denomination. Oh, and there's the whole Purim/drinking blood article, which is a wholly religious issue and has nothing to do with politics at all.

Making fun of anyones faith is not right I don't care if its a Sikh, Muslim, Jew Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Baha'i two wrongs don't make a right even if you think it does.

I have seen 100s of pictures made up by Jews making fun of Arab and Muslim people are you going to say its wrong. I have said it I'm now calling you out to say the same.

[Faustus]

Curiouser and curiouser. Apparently an Egyptian paper published the Danish cartoons... back in October. Funnily enough, while the paper criticised the cartoons, there was no rioting, burning or calling for heads to roll (literally). Why is all of this happening now, all of a sudden?

[Faustus]

Stop talking and bring proof show me one cartoon making fun of Joe Smith of the mormons or any other prophet because I have never seen any.

You're joking, right? Mormons are mocked all over the place- have you ever seen an episode of South Park? Or The Simpsons? Check out this site's message board. As for cartoons, here's an article about them.

And you know something? I can do you one better than cartoons. The Mormons put up with virulent anti-Mormon demonstrators right outside the Salt Lake Temple, the most sacred place in their religion- it would be comparable to people picketing the Kaaba (which, of course, will never happen, since infidels aren't even allowed in Mecca). See here, here (note the photo fourth from bottom, in which a protester displays a cartoon mocking Gordon Hinckley, the current Prophet of the Mormon church- strangely, no rioting going on), here (in the second photo, a protester is waving around sacred Temple garments) and here (at an Easter pageant in Mesa, Arizona- notice that in the course of that protest, Joseph Smith is called a liar, a deceiver and an enslaver- still no rioting on the part of the Mormons, though).

But nah, no one ever makes fun of the Mormons or Joseph Smith. Ahem.

And what are you saying, exactly? That it's okay to say that Jews kill babies and drink their blood, since you're not actually mocking Moses or David? And why do you think Moses, for instance, isn't mocked? The fact that he's also a prophet of Islam couldn't have anything to do with that, I'm sure. It's purely sensitivity and political correctness on the part of the governments... of Saudi Arabia and Iran. Not exactly what they're known for, is it?

I have seen 100s of pictures made up by Jews making fun of Arab and Muslim people are you going to say its wrong.

I certainly will (if you were actually reading my posts rather than cherry picking the stuff you're capable of answering- you still haven't said whether you think publishing articles accusing Jews of drinking childrens' blood is "just disagreeing" with Jewish people, as you portrayed the bulk of anti-Judaism), though I'd like to see some proof of that in the form of links, newspaper names/dates or something along those lines (with hundreds of pictures, I'm sure you can find some). Are government-run papers in Israel publishing cartoons mocking Arabs and Mohammed? That would certainly seem to clash with the way the Israeli police arrested and jailed that woman in 1997 for posting a cartoon mocking Mohammed. Whereas Saudi and Egyptian government-run newspapers regularly publish all kinds of hateful things about Jews, and I have yet to hear anyone say a word about it, let alone demand retractions or burn embassies. Do you think that it would be justifiable for a group of Jews to riot and burn down the Saudi embassy in retaliation for the blood libel article that was run? What about demanding a government apology and retraction? What would your reaction be if Jewish people were to take that approach to being offended? Not that I really expect you to answer any of these questions, since you haven't answered one of my questions so far.

I think I've been quite clear in saying that I thought the Danish cartoons were in poor taste, and that I can understand Muslims being offended. But does being offended entitle you to burn buildings (including two embassies completely uninvolved with the cartoon debacle), riot, call for beheadings and so on? This is what everyone is taking issue with, not Muslims who are peaceably protesting and writing letters to the editor. So if you're going to answer one question, tell me, do you think that these cartoons justify the burning and rioting that we've seen in Syria and a few other locations? Or the calls for Osama bin Laden to destroy Denmark, Germany and France? Does being offended justify that kind of behavior? Particularly when you yourself were saying only a few posts ago that what people call "anti-Semitism" (anti-Judaism, if you like) is just "disagreeing" with Jews? What would you say if someone told you that these cartoons were just people "disagreeing" with Muslims?

The thing is, I don't really see much point in continuing this discussion, because I keep asking questions, and you keep ignoring them, bringing up completely irrelevent information, or blatantly sidestepping them, whereas I've answered all of your questions, posted link after link and generally defended the points I'm trying to make. I mean, I'm happy to keep posting, but is this really going anywhere? Your argument seems to be, "Well, they drew pictures of our Prophet, so who can blame us for burning some embassies?" while at the same time trying to minimize the deliberate offensiveness of cartoons, articles and broadcasts in almost every Middle Eastern country directed toward Jewish people. Do you not find it somewhat hypocritical that people in Syria, who were happy to laugh at Jews and mock various, significant aspects of being Jewish, are now upset that the shoe is on the other foot, someone is giving them a hard time, and their reaction is to burn embassies?

I'll ask you again: which do you think is more harmful to the image of Islam? The stupid cartoons in that Danish paper, or people, angry and insisting that Islam is a religion of peace, burning buildings, calling for retribution by Osama bin Laden, demanding beheadings and generally responding in a violent fashion? Which do you think is leaving people with a more negative impression of the Islamic faith? Personally, if I were Muslim, I would be furious at the people responding in these extreme ways- it's only hijacking the religion and parading it around as exactly what its critics want people to think it is: a bunch of crazy people who can't control themselves enough to respond to offense in a peaceful, rational way. I don't think that's what Islam is at all, but that's how it comes off to a lot of people when things like this go on- and others try to justify it with, "Well, we're offended! They printed pictures of our prophet! No one else has that happen to them!"

Oh, and for mockery of Jesus, check out the latest issue of Rolling Stone, in which Kanye West portrays himself as Jesus Christ. Or virtually any episode of South Park. Or The Simpsons. Or The Family Guy. Jews, Christians and almost everyone else get lampooned in the press on a regular basis. Sometimes people get offended, sometimes they don't. But I have yet to hear of anyone burning down a newspaper building or demanding that a publisher or cartoonist be beheaded. Not since the Middle Ages, anyway. I'd like to think that Islam is better than some of its followers are currently behaving, but that's made difficult when people are trying to defend their actions.

[Faustus]

Making fun of anyones faith is not right I don't care if its a Sikh, Muslim, Jew Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, Baha'i two wrongs don't make a right even if you think it does.

Where did I say it does? I'll thank you to refrain from putting words in my mouth. Pointing out the hypocrisy of countries with a long, long history of public Jew-hatred suddenly getting upset at someone failing to lavish sufficient respect on their state religion isn't saying, "Boy, Mohammed the terrorist! Gosh, that's so hilarious!" Saying, "Gee, maybe burning three embassy buildings isn't the best way to prove how peaceful your religion is," isn't saying, "Oh, get over it. After all, it's just people disagreeing with Islam."

Though this does bring up an interesting issue. Apparently, Western countries are now expected/obligated by Muslim countries to adhere to Muslim standards of respect when discussing Islam. Does that mean that Muslim countries are similarly obligated to treat all other religions with respect? There would be some major apologies due, if that's the case- the blowing up of those Buddha statues in Afghanistan comes to mind (talk about mockery of a religion's prophet- still no rioting on the part of Buddhists, though).

[Faithfulservant]

Here are some of the anti-Jesus cartoons you can find.. just to show that it happens.


http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/...ity-offenders/

[I, Brian]

Here's an interesting article from the Detroit Free Press, dealing with the subject of comedy in Islam:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...602100369/1009

[truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Here are some of the anti-Jesus cartoons you can find.. just to show that it happens.


http://irregulartimes.com/index.php/...ity-offenders/

Thank you for sharing, Faithfulservant.

What was interesting was I actually thought it was funny....
What does that mean?

[Yaqinud Din]

You're joking, right? Mormons are mocked all over the place- have you ever seen an episode of South Park? Or The Simpsons? Check out this site's message board. As for cartoons, here's an article about them.

I was talking about Muslims making fun of other peoples Prophets because you said that we don't make fun of Moses only because he's a Prophet of Islam. I'm going to say this one more time bring any pictures of MUSLIMS making fun of other prophets not exmorons.

I'm done talking with you because all your going to do is twist what I say anyways.

[truthseeker]

Most of the people that I work with are Christians. I printed the Jesus Cigarettes cartoon and showed it to some people to see the reaction.

Everyone thought that it was extremely distasteful. Within that, some laughed after awhile, some maintained their disgust, and a few got angry and wanted to take action.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Here's an interesting article from the Detroit Free Press, dealing with the subject of comedy in Islam:

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...602100369/1009

Ive actually heard arab comic relief.. they are hilarious. They poke fun at themselves and their culture just like the rest of us and they do it tastefully and sometimes untastefully.. Humor is a part of how different ppls bond with each other.. I believe God has a wonderful sense of humor why else would we have it and treasure it.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by truthseeker

Most of the people that I work with are Christians. I printed the Jesus Cigarettes cartoon and showed it to some people to see the reaction.

Everyone thought that it was extremely distasteful. Within that, some laughed after awhile, some maintained their disgust, and a few got angry and wanted to take action.

It happens and you have different responses to it.. I personally believe that His shoulders are broad enough to handle anything man can dish out. lol Do you really think that His feelings get hurt? I dont. Thats why I dont freak out when I see stuff like that..

Whats repulsive to me are horrific actions that are done supposedly in His name.. like the holocaust. What is different between me and the extremist mulsims we are seeing on the news is that they do horrific things in the name of Mohammed and Allah.. believing that these actions are what is wanted or that they are righteous in their actions. Its just glaring proof that we do not worship the same God and that our teachers teach different messages.

[Faustus]

Originally Posted by Yaqinud Din

I was talking about Muslims making fun of other peoples Prophets because you said that we don't make fun of Moses only because he's a Prophet of Islam. I'm going to say this one more time bring any pictures of MUSLIMS making fun of other prophets not exmorons.

So it only counts these days if you actually make fun of someone else's prophet? Is this what you're saying? Anything else is okay, it's just making fun of someone else's prophet that justifies burning embassies? And I'm seriously asking here, because this whole time, you sound like you're trying to justify people calling for beheadings and burning down embassies. Because they're offended at seeing a picture of the prophet. Do you think they're justified?

And was "exmorons" a typo, or deliberate? I'll assume the former. Anyway, the pictures of those protests (did you look at them) aren't being done by ex-Mormons. They're actually being done by other Christians who don't believe Mormonism is Christianity (which is not a discussion we need to have here). You also didn't answer my question the first time: would those Mormons have been justified in finding the houses of those people and burning them down? Would it have been acceptable to threaten to behead them, since they were mocking Joseph Smith and the current Prophet?

That's not really relevent, though. What I would like to know is why Muslims would be mocking Mormons, anyway. Are their Mormon communities in Middle Eastern countries? Do most Middle Eastern Muslims even know what a Mormon is? It seems to me that you're trying to drag this issue down to the lone aspect of portraying a prophet and excuse all of the other mockery of religions that comes out of Islamic countries on a depressingly regular basis. Isn't the benchmark really what's offensive within the scope of the religion as opposed to doing the exact same thing that the Danish paper did?

Oh, you also didn't answer my point about the Taliban blowing up those statues of the Buddha in Afghanistan. That's certainly showing blatant disregard and disrespect for another religion's prophet (I would say far worse than the cartoons), yet there was no Buddhist rioting.

I'm done talking with you because all your going to do is twist what I say anyways.

I'm not sure what it is that you've said that I've twisted. All I've been doing is telling you what I'm getting from your posts and asking questions to try and clarify. Is it my fault that you haven't answered any of those questions? If I'm missing something important here, don't give up, explain what you're saying to me in clearer language or something. But to me, when someone is asked questions and dances around them in every post, I get the impression that he (she?) either doesn't want to answer them truthfully, because it'll look bad (which to me is lying by omission, but that's just my opinion), or can't answer them (in which case, just say so- no big deal). But this "talk" has been me posting links, me answering questions, me asking questions, and you alternately putting words in my mouth, dancing around perfectly reasonable (I think) questions that I've asked and playing games with semantics. You're probably right when you say it isn't a very productive discussion.

I'm sorry that you're upset- I can understand why you're upset. I don't particularly enjoy it when people make fun of my religion, either. I just don't think that being upset (even if someone were to mock Moses or Abraham or something) justifies calling for peoples' deaths and burning buildings. Or, G-d forbid, hoping for Osama bin Laden to launch another 9-11. Who wishes those kinds of things on people? I just find it pretty screwed up that there are people who could look at something like this, think of those 2000-odd people who died on 9-11, and wish for more... because of some cartoons. I mean, do you think that's a good response to have to this? Wishing for another 2000 people to die? I've asked this a few times, but you won't answer my question- why is that?

Oh, I also meant to ask, have you actually seen the Danish cartoons? All twelve of them?

[suanni]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Whats repulsive to me are horrific actions that are done supposedly in His name.. like the holocaust. What is different between me and the extremist mulsims we are seeing on the news is that they do horrific things in the name of Mohammed and Allah.. believing that these actions are what is wanted or that they are righteous in their actions. Its just glaring proof that we do not worship the same God and that our teachers teach different messages.

God is God whatever you wish to call your God. The true teachers of whatever faith teach love not hate. But as you say there have been some horrific deeds done in the name of God throughout the ages.
I'm sure that the deeds of the extremists are condemned equally by the average main stream Muslim.
The newspaper involved would have known the reaction the cartoons would provoke. And why publish cartoons offensive to one faith and not another, even though the cartoons that would offend the Christian faith would not result in such violence? The media know the power that they have, know the trouble that it can stir.
Not defending the extremists but am questioning the motives of the paper involved.
I have noticed recently a definite slant with the media in the portrayal of different faiths.(UK only, I know nothing of anything other than my own country). The murder of Damilola Taylor was a recent example. Repeatedly it was said that he was a good Christian boy and I asked myself would his faith have been emphasised so much if he were another faith? I think not. The only time another faith is mentioned is when it has a bad association. Seems to me that the media are striving to create further divide between society and faith.
There seems to be a very definite anti Muslim slant in the West at the moment, and its the average Muslim that is feeling the brunt of the growing movement.
And the blood sucking tale about Jews, I found an interesting article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3420595.stm

Even though the blood libel has been disproved countless times, it refuses to fade away. Racist groups in the US still sell videos which maintain that Jews commit ritual murder.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by suanni

God is God whatever you wish to call your God. The true teachers of whatever faith teach love not hate. But as you say there have been some horrific deeds done in the name of God throughout the ages.
I'm sure that the deeds of the extremists are condemned equally by the average main stream Muslim.

Like I said.. They and others that do horrific deeds in the name of God do not worship the same God that I do. My God wouldnt expect me to do anything of the sort we are seeing on the news today.

Im not going to sidetrack this with an argument off topic but the following statement is not true. I wouldnt be true to MY God by accepting it.

God is God whatever you wish to call your God.

As for the bloodsucking Jews?? Ive never even heard this. lol

Im also not lumping all Muslims whatsoever.. I know many beautiful Muslims that are horrified by all that has been done by their extremist brothers and sisters.

[brucegdc]

Folks - just a general reminder. The Code of Conduct still applies, and some of this discussion is getting very close to the line of being abusive to others - please tone it down.