Sola Scriptura

[taijasi]

Ruby,

Your views on soteriology are shared by many, some at CR (ME!), and quite a few others as I've found in my own spiritual journey.

One need not believe in vicarious atonement in order to be a Christian, although I find that at-one-ment is very much something I desire, and something I consider worthy of my attention. The journey takes a lifetime (and more), I am finding, and it sure isn't easy!

And I'm with you - long ago I found myself wondering how the death of ANYONE could possibly mean LIFE for me ... except that I don't think I ever actually even phrased the question in this way. It would just make no sense to do so, so I never got around to it. After taking a hiatus from my Lutheran upbringing and experimenting with Wicca & stumbling across Aleister Crowley's stuff (yuk!) ... I found my answers in the teachings of Theosophy.

This has lead me full circle, back to Christianity, with an understanding that I could not likely have gained elsewhere, as quickly, as clearly, as satisfactorily, as fully, or as appropriately - for me. And while I have noticed that some folks are hasty to point out - Oh, you're not a "true" Christian, or You're one of those heretical types ... I couldn't care a hill o' beans how others judge me.

The reason I think many are drawn to a discussion of Christ and Christian Teachings - both historical/canonical AND those which the Church, and traditionalists, have chosen to ban, burn, badmouth and exclude - is because there is something of Universal merit and APPLICATION in them ... for my life, for yours, and for those of ANYONE who is willing to take up Christ's yoke and follow. Some will see eye-to-eye on this, yet I feel it is always helpful to be willing to set aside differences and focus on commonalities. I just wish more would be so inclined.

Relativism, in the sense I have seen it discussed most recently & most often at CR, is not something I can agree with. It could result in nothing more than pure fetishism, or the worst of superstitions. But it seems to me that the opposite extreme of a dogmatism and an imprisonment in the traditions of the past ... should equally be eschewed. The Middle Way, in this case, will be that in which the clear Light of Reason can be brought to shine alongside Faith, and complement the latter, even offering insight & illumination. In some cases, this may indeed lead to new understandings of familiar subjects, and such is the nature of progressive Revelation. Either God is a Living, Loving Presence, to be found HERE in the very heart of His Creation, amidst His creatures, and discernable within the varying Scriptures ... or else we must retreat into the notion of the Clockwork God of the Deists.

Not a dead man hanging motionless from a dead tree, some 2100 years ago, but a Living Presence within the Heart(s) of Humanity - THIS is the Christ in which I believe, the God Whom I would worship. And if I fail to discern Him in the Bible, or any other of His Scriptural Revelations to Humanity ... then it's probably time I took my nose out of the books, walked outside, and beheld the Sunshine - for THERE is God, the force of Life Itself.

I don't know, is there room for a Mystic, and the mystical approach in today's Christianity, and on Christian discussion forums? I would hope so.

Namaskar,

taijasi

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I described a bit about the Anabaptists and mentioned that the Mennonites are descendents. To explain who I am I'd like to go into a bit more depth. Over the last century and a half there have been major changes in the Mennonite church. Today some Mennonites drive horse and buggies and live without electricity and telephones. Some (by far the largest part) live and dress the same as the rest of North American society, which includes using and owning the latest styles of dress and technology. Between these two ends of the spectrum there are dozens of "degrees" of conservativism and liberalism. This extends to the theological realm as well as the material realm.

I grew up in the most liberal horse and buggy group of this area. There are at least two very conservative car groups in the area. I could have joined one of them. But they don't approve of higher education and I needed higher education. Some people make the change by degrees over a number of years. But I knew that I could not go through this hassle so I just went to the most liberal car group in the area. To my surprise, not even they fully approved of my goal of a full education. A social work degree or teaching certificate or nursing would have been fine with them. But my aspirations of graduate studies???

I'm not the first Mennonite to do so but I was in a rural town and I guess they were out to prove that they were just as good as the more educated city churches. But even a man connected with a Mennonite university discouraged me from so much education. I did not understand since he had a doctorate and he had at one time held the office of president at the local Mennonite college. I've been told since then that Mennonites are doers and just don't believe so much in intellectual pursuits. I guess they just didn't think a horse and buggy country girl should aim so high.

However, after making the sacrifice of breaking with tradition (which includes a very compliated emotional shunning from family and former friends) I was not about to settle for less than my real calling. I say emotional shunning because officially I am not shunned or excommunicated. But they are expert at the unofficial emotional stuff. I knew that would happen. That is why I tried so hard to find a middle way. But since none existed, I decided to take advantage of the situation and do what I was born to do.

Like I explained in another post, the Christology of traditional Christianity does not make sense to me; it does not hang together. Thus, I simply don't feel comfortable in any church that requires and practices belief in Christ's atonement. I used to accept the charge that humans are depraved and sinful, and assumed I'd understand when I got older. But the older I get and the more I learn about human nature, the more I am convinced that there are psychological reasons for the human attrocities that are committed. I believe that humans are good deep down. That upsets the entire heirarchy of churchdom. I've gotten to the point where I will no longer lie about my beliefs re humanity just to be part of a community.

I think there are faith communities that accommodate my beliefs but I'm still looking for the right one. Besides, I feel quite comfortable not going to church. Finding a church is no longer top priority for me.

So there you have a bit about me.

Ruby

Thank you Ruby. I find this insight into the Mennonite community fascinating. I think it's amazing the fortitude you've shown in your qwest to find your own answers. It's hard for me to imagine growing up in a culture that does not encourage education as that is the exact opposite of my experience--an education is considered the most prized thing we can have in my family. But my parents are also flexible in that they were fully supportive of my little sister who decided that college was not for her. Anyhoo...

From what you said I did not detect that you were discouraged from an education because you are a woman, but just because an education is viewed with some suspiscion. Is that correct? As for the hard-working part, from what I've seen of the Mennonites in NY that is very obvious. My father, an atheist, has so much respect for the Mennonites because they work hard and with good craftsmanship and discipline. I have to say I really respect that trait too.

The part about the shunning I find very sad. I hope this gets easier for you with time, as everyone gets used to the idea of the path you've chosen.

As for the Christology, I have to say that the emphasis on the atonement is not large in the church I grew up in. Certainly it is part of the doctrine, but I have been very fortunate, I think, to have been raised in a pretty liberal church where the emphasis is on God's love for us, rather than judgement. And as for humans being depraved and sinful, that also is just not part of what I hear in church. The falleness of our state does not mean that we are 'bad,' in fact I think Catholic doctrine teaches the goodness of creation, including and especially humans, but we are in more like a state of separation, or being less than we were created for. What you describe sounds a lot more like what I associate with fundamentalism. Anyway, I agree with you that many, if not all of the atrocities committed by humans have more to do with our psychology than with 'sin.' But, then I ponder why there is mental instability and other physiological illnesses in a world created good...

I admire your integrity and intellectual honesty regarding your beliefs, and I see that China Cat is posting at the same time so I will add that I admire his as well.

luna

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I see we're all posting at the same time. Hi Luna! (waves)

Chris

Hi Chris! I am having trouble getting booted off all the time too when I write longer posts. This has been a new thing for the past oh I don't know six months (yes, I have been around here for a long time). Anyway, good to 'see' you!

luna

[lunamoth]

Hi Andrew,

Originally Posted by taijasi

And I'm with you - long ago I found myself wondering how the death of ANYONE could possibly mean LIFE for me ... except that I don't think I ever actually even phrased the question in this way. It would just make no sense to do so, so I never got around to it.

It is our own death that brings true life. We die to our self and live and Christ. This does not mean we throw off all individuality.

Relativism, in the sense I have seen it discussed most recently & most often at CR, is not something I can agree with. It could result in nothing more than pure fetishism, or the worst of superstitions. But it seems to me that the opposite extreme of a dogmatism and an imprisonment in the traditions of the past ... should equally be eschewed. The Middle Way, in this case, will be that in which the clear Light of Reason can be brought to shine alongside Faith, and complement the latter, even offering insight & illumination.

Are you sure you're not an Episcopalian?

I don't know, is there room for a Mystic, and the mystical approach in today's Christianity, and on Christian discussion forums? I would hope so.

I certainly think so, not that I consider myself a mystic.

luna

[Dondi]

Ruby,

I understand your concern about tradition. Even Jesus warned against the traditions of man overruling the commandments of God:

"Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." - Matthew 15:1-9


Here the 1st century Jewish religious leaders, the Pharisees, misused tradition to water down the commandment of God to honor one's father and mother. Jesus constantly berated the Jewish leaders as hyprocrites and legalists. They took away from the true worship of God by putting chains of the law on the people. But the commandments of God are summed up in loving God and loving others and if this isn't the goal of one's tradition, then that tradition is in vain.

Even Paul encountered churches that were following the precepts of certain apostles rather than of Christ:

"For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?" - I Corinthians 1:11-13

Having said this, however, I believe that being in a Body of Believers who adhere to the same precepts actually strengthens more than divides. When we come together as a church with a mission in mind, a vision of what God wants us to see as a church, then we are unified to a common goal. I admit that I don't agree with some doctrines in the Baptist church I attend, but I do see the love of God being displayed among the members of the congregation and in the outreach to save unbelievers. I've learned not to quibble over doctrine, unless it is overtly dangerous, but rather accept that I disagree and concentrate on more weightier issues of the tasks at hand. We are at least unified in the essentials. Bringing people to Christ is our main focus in our church, so regardless of the differences I might have in their fundamentalist doctrines, I am at least in agreement with their desire to bring souls to God.

I don't know what you are looking for, Ruby. I suppose you can start your own denomination, say, the Church of RubySera_Martin, so that you can be satisfied with all the doctrines of that church. But I suppose that is why we have so many denominations because we are so diverse as individuals. But how many people will attend the Church of RubySera_Martin? Probably those who think a lot like you. But I guarantee that they won't agree with everything you proclaim.

I would suggest you examine you beliefs and find out what is most important to you and then seek a church that has the same goals. Even if that church doesn't line up perfectly, at least you can serve with other believers in a common goal that you both agree on. you will develop relationships with like-minded worshippers and find strength from each other.

"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." - Hebrews 10:24-25

[Dondi]

BTW, I just read an article in The Washington Post about the growing trend in home churches that don't adhere to strict traditions. Perhaps this is what you are looking for. They feature one such church from my hometown of Rockville, MD, incidently, which includes members from Evangelical, Episcopalian, and Catholic backgrounds.

Article here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060300225.html

[RubySera_Martin]

A quick word about relativism, then I have to focus on other things. A friend sent me an article defining moral relativism. It argues that relativism says there is no absolute truth so everyone can make their own standards of right and wrong, including criminal behaviour such as murder and pedophilia.

I know absolutely no one who believes murder and pedophilia are okay, though I can see that the critics of relativism want to point out this logical conclusion. I think what governs relativism so as not to reach such absurd degrees of criminal behaviour is the secular value of: You can do whatever you like so long as you don't hurt someone. When that is applied to religion, it obligates parents and churches not to force young people to go to church and become full members against their will and convictions. I think we need something between absolute authority and absolute relativism. And I think the idea about doing whatever one likes so long as it doesn't hurt self or others does a very good job of being a middle road.

[wil]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I failed to mention--I think Luther's point was that the people can read the Bible for themselves; they don't have to depend on the church's interpretation. I sort of think, and I also came across this idea in the literature, that he did not think this one through to its logical conclusion; the Bible can be taken in countless ways, and countless churches have come into existence because people read the Bible for themselves. Should we go back to not reading the Bible? I hope not!

You know I always thought that was Jesus's point as well. That one didn't have to go to temple to learn, that one should read the Torah themselves... of course that was long before Gutenberg made it feasible.

[wil]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I know absolutely no one who believes murder and pedophilia are okay,

Our prisons and graves are full of people that believe just that.... There are whole countries where what we call pedophiles they call normal... Everyone may justify it, not call it murder...but all through the ages on until today, murder, mass murder and genocide even, have been mainstays of humans it appears...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

A quick word about relativism, then I have to focus on other things. A friend sent me an article defining moral relativism. It argues that relativism says there is no absolute truth so everyone can make their own standards of right and wrong, including criminal behaviour such as murder and pedophilia.

I know absolutely no one who believes murder and pedophilia are okay, though I can see that the critics of relativism want to point out this logical conclusion. I think what governs relativism so as not to reach such absurd degrees of criminal behaviour is the secular value of: You can do whatever you like so long as you don't hurt someone. When that is applied to religion, it obligates parents and churches not to force young people to go to church and become full members against their will and convictions. I think we need something between absolute authority and absolute relativism. And I think the idea about doing whatever one likes so long as it doesn't hurt self or others does a very good job of being a middle road.

I believe that is what you would call "balance". Though I for one do believe there are areas in life that relativism has no place...in short there is absolute right and absolute wrong. How we deal with them, that is a different matter all together. And I think that is called "grace" and forgiveness.

my thoughts

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Our prisons and graves are full of people that believe just that.... There are whole countries where what we call pedophiles they call normal... Everyone may justify it, not call it murder...but all through the ages on until today, murder, mass murder and genocide even, have been mainstays of humans it appears...

You, eh haven't visited a prison lately have you? Even the most hardened criminals, apparently HATE, pedophilia, and those that conduct such behavior...

v/r

Q

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You, eh haven't visited a prison lately have you? Even the most hardened criminals, apparently HATE, pedophilia, and those that conduct such behavior... v/r Q

No Q, has been a while...although I have fond memories...I give a nod to your expertise in these circles.

I think we are fully aware that most of us feel the behaviour abhorent, but that is not to say that some obviously feel it is ok...or maybe they don't maybe for some it an addictive behaviouir that they fight...I don't know... but we are also aware that there are thousands if not millions around the world engaging in such behaviour daily...

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

From what you said I did not detect that you were discouraged from an education because you are a woman, but just because an education is viewed with some suspiscion. Is that correct?

Yes. It is believed that we (humans?) can get all we need in life with an elementary eight-grade education. There is some inconsistency in this when we observe that they make use of the most advanced medical science. But they themselves can never be a doctor or nurse because it requires higher education. There are some self-educated people among them. Correspondence courses seem to be okay, so some men get training as accountants. Some people are so well-read in alternative medicine that they can advise others.

As for the hard-working part, from what I've seen of the Mennonites in NY that is very obvious. My father, an atheist, has so much respect for the Mennonites because they work hard and with good craftsmanship and discipline. I have to say I really respect that trait too.

Hard-working and self-sufficient are high values. I think that is where the self-education comes in. Someone on here mentioned being a professional carpenter. I am not sure what that means but there are a lot of men in that community who are first rate carpenters and archetects. I myself have seen so many building projects and have done enough carpentry on my own that I think I could set up a house. The point I'm making is that part of self-education comes simply from exposure.

The part about the shunning I find very sad. I hope this gets easier for you with time, as everyone gets used to the idea of the path you've chosen.

They would actually have to compromise on basic beliefs to let up on the shunning. This thread is Sola Scriptura. They read the Bible. Some people read little else. They certainly don't trust fancy theology, the likes of which my questions would have demanded had I been allowed to ask them. Thus, I think it can be said that they keep the "scriptures only" concept very literally. And the Bible commands Christians to separate themselves from "the world." They see me as being "of the world." I've talked with people who left this kind of community thirty and fifty years ago. The shunning continues; the emotional barriers stay in place for life. There is no alternative as they see it. I think the term fundamentalist fits.

As for the Christology, I have to say that the emphasis on the atonement is not large in the church I grew up in. Certainly it is part of the doctrine, but I have been very fortunate, I think, to have been raised in a pretty liberal church where the emphasis is on God's love for us, rather than judgement. And as for humans being depraved and sinful, that also is just not part of what I hear in church. The falleness of our state does not mean that we are 'bad,' in fact I think Catholic doctrine teaches the goodness of creation, including and especially humans, but we are in more like a state of separation, or being less than we were created for.

I was exposed to this type of Christianity for the first time when I started studying at the seminary. I've wondered what I would believe today if I had grown up with that kind of teaching.

What you describe sounds a lot more like what I associate with fundamentalism. Anyway, I agree with you that many, if not all of the atrocities committed by humans have more to do with our psychology than with 'sin.' But, then I ponder why there is mental instability and other physiological illnesses in a world created good...

Right. Christianity seems to raise more questions than it answers.