Some concepts... and a lot of confusion!

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

1) ...what exactly is salvation?

2) ...what exactly does it mean that one is justified through faith?

3) ...what does it mean that those who believe are 'righteous'?

4) ...are faith and works inexplicably connected and inseparable, and is salvation received only by works + faith or does one receive salvation through faith only?

As someone with a non-conventional Christian understanding, my response would be:

1. Salvation is 100% compatible with the Buddhist concept of Liberation - that is, freedom from the natural cycle of repeated incarnation. I find this teaching consistent with Christ's message, and also his methodology, or instructions, for daily living. However, if you prefer not to consider that Christ taught rebirth, then Salvation equates to living a life 100% free of sin - and I'll be the first to say that I know precious few who have attained that in their current lifetime. Nonetheless, Christ told us we can do it (Matthew 5:48); I just think it takes quite a few times around the wheel.
2. I am unfamiliar with the term "justified through faith," but my common sense tells me that it might mean that if we act (and that also means think) based on the very best we know we are capable of ... you know, like the US Army ("Be all that you can be!") ... then even our mistakes can serve a purpose - in that we learn from them. Willful, knowing sin is never justified, or justifiable. But looking in hindsight, we can hold even our mistakes in the proper esteem, or perspective, if we can honestly say that we did the best we could. And if we made a mistake and have since then added to our understanding, then it is also our responsibility not to repeat the error.
3. Again, I've never seen this wording, but there's only one interpretation that makes sense ... to me. It is that - simply by definition - those who have a true understanding of "the ways of the Lord," will demonstrate this understanding through their behavior and attitude toward others. This, after all, is what righteous really means, again imho. In short, the truly holy man walks the walk ... and doesn't just talk the talk.
4. I would almost go to the extreme of suggesting that works alone will carry us much, much farther than sitting around praising Jesus (or Buddha, or whoever) all day long. If there is an accident, and a person needs help, the sensible & charitable man will act. And if there are those in need - e.g., hungry or homeless, whether in New Orleans, Africa or down the street - then again, it is more important to help these people, than to pray for them (not that prayer hurts, of course). And finally, when we are suffering in some way, and are seeking respite, or refuge from our troubles - then certainly, prayer is good, but only through direct action can we hope to "straighten ourselves out" ... which is also called, karma yoga (please see the first three sentences of the definition on Wikipedia). This wisdom is also contained and conveyed in the Prayer attributed to St. Francis of Assisi.

That's my 2 cents.

As for what Faith really is - to me, as a non-conventional Christian ... it is not the same as wishing or hoping, nor does it always concern the purely subjective realms of angels & Deity. Sometimes it is easier to walk the path than others, and most of us prefer the path of least resistance, wishing that things were always "easy" ... or at least that we didn't need to suffer in order to learn and make spritual progress. But, this is the nature of life on our planet (at this time), and so Faith is what helps us through these rough spots. It is almost synonymous with optimism, good cheer and a positive attitude in general. And this, I think most people will recognize, is a quality that can be developed by all people, being the practical expression, in everyday activities & situations - of Goodwill.


Peace be with all,

protokletos

[Dor]

Originally Posted by taijasi

I would almost go to the extreme of suggesting that works alone will carry us much, much farther than sitting around praising Jesus

As someone with a traditional bible believing Christian understanding I would have to disagree with that. Works can not get us near as far as faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: itis the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[taijasi]

Hmmm, well just as noisy prayers have their own reward (dealt with in Matthew, ch.6), so I would say, do vain acts of false-kindness. We all know the parable of the Widow's might.

True works are of the heart, are born of love ... and I say again, these mean more to the man in need - than me sitting around saying, "Lord, I believe!"

How about this: Born of my Faith and Love, even my simplest acts of kindness (done without seeking recognition or acknowledgment) amount to more in the eyes of G-d ... than writing a check to the Salvation Army, when this is done but to ease my conscience. Not that we shouldn't make charitable contributions, but I think you get my point ...

andrew

[Ghaniel]

Bandit, I am a Christian. I belong to no church, but was born in Lutheran Norway and the Pentecostal congregation of which my parents are members has influenced me. Allthough, I am critical to Christian organisations as I know there is a lot of manipulation going on in some places. And the church leaders have their dirty secrets. I seek God on my own, which is best for me so I won't be distracted by people on the neighbour seats who worship ALOUD.

Currently, I'm trying to reconcile Protestant and Catholic theology and find that there are few differences apart from in the rituals and the meanings of them. The reason why I'm doing it is part of my study of the Bible.

As a matter of fact, Bandit, I had a discussion with my pa the day after I'd created this thread, and that cleared things up for me. I should have explained that earlier to avoid any misunderstanding about me looking to confirm an answer I allready had. I've also discussed the same topic on another forum and that elucidated certain things. I see that we are on the same page as well, Bandit.

I know now that faith does not give salvation if it does not have consequences in your life as a believer. You must act on your faith, pursue God's will for Mankind. But faith must work through love, one must do works out of love of God and Mankind. In the Gospel of John 14:15, Jesus says: "If you love me, follow my commandments." And faith has consequences for one's life. The Holy Spirit envokes a will in you to follow God. So being a Christian is being in a process. The battle is not over after you have received God's grace and you have faith in Him. I experience that my faith is tried by God every so often, and that He does so to move closer to me. Faith is together with works of faith, a process.

Path of one, you say that "I just think the beliefs I have are right for me.."

I cannot say anything else than that God is one. He has one nature.
I'm sceptical towards your beliefs because it is a mixture of Christianity and something else. It's a mixture of different, indeed separate understandings.

Could you please show me the thread where you argue for your beliefs?
I want to see it, really, in respect to you. And I do respect you as a person.

I can understand if you mean reincarnation as in getting a new body before you come to Heaven, not otherwise. Because that is in truth reincarnation and it is told in the Bible that God will give us new bodies.

As for the literal meaning of Heaven and Hell... I understand if you mean that there is not a physical Hell or Heaven. That is, of the same matter as this Universe. One could believe that Heaven and Hell are not of the same substance as anything in our Universe. I'd like to believe that as the substance in this existence has a potential for pain and extinction. Great combustions of forces, objects thrusting and crushing eachother. It's a harmonous place in itself, but destructive in its nature. Hopefully, there will be stars and other celestial objects in Heaven too. God never created anything more beautiful, I think.

As for the Ephesians 2: 8-9, I recommend... James 2:24 which says:
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

This refers to works of faith, the things you do when you are filled with the Holy Spirit. It could be helping a man in need, someone who is lonely, an sick orphan child or praying for someone or something.

So works of faith is not slavery and not meant to be a pressure on anyone. It comes from the love of God and His love is inexhaustable. So one can never get tired.

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

As for the Ephesians 2: 8-9, I recommend... James 2:24 which says:
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

This refers to works of faith, the things you do when you are filled with the Holy Spirit. It could be helping a man in need, someone who is lonely, an sick orphan child or praying for someone or something.

So works of faith is not slavery and not meant to be a pressure on anyone. It comes from the love of God and His love is inexhaustable. So one can never get tired.

I agree but what do works without faith get you??

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Dor

I agree but what do works without faith get you??

Hi Dor
Good to see you
1) works without faith OR
2) some form of ideaology OR
3) some atheist type of religion OR
4) maybe a trip way down down down the elevator


i dont think it is even possible to have (the right) works if we dont have faith in God first & of course a nice clean repented heart.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

Bandit, I am a Christian....
I see that we are on the same page as well, Bandit.

it sure was a long road getting there, but yes i see that we are on the same page

[Ghaniel]

Originally Posted by Dor

I agree but what do works without faith get you??

Nothing.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

Nothing.

Same with faith without works. It is dead. But here is the kicker. Without love (backing the faith and/or works), anything done or prayed is meaningless.

From and engineer's perspective:

Faith is voltage (the punch)

Love is Current (the force driving the punch)

Works is Wattage (the resulting energy of the punch).

Works make the machinery go round, but Faith is needed to start the machinery, and Love is the driving force behind it. (to keep it going).

v/r

Q

[Ghaniel]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Same with faith without works. It is dead. But here is the kicker. Without love (backing the faith and/or works), anything done or prayed is meaningless.

From and engineer's perspective:

Faith is voltage (the punch)

Love is Current (the force driving the punch)

Works is Wattage (the resulting energy of the punch).

Works make the machinery go round, but Faith is needed to start the machinery, and Love is the driving force behind it. (to keep it going).

v/r

Q

I like the mental picture your explanation creates! You're an engineer too? Wow! You know the best engineer is God?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

I like the mental picture your explanation creates! You're an engineer too? Wow! You know the best engineer is God?

That's cool, I certainly don't mind playing second fiddle to the Head Engineer.

v/r

Q

[InChristAlways]

quote Path of One: And by the way, not sure where you got the idea about Lutherans. I don't know about Catholics, but I was raised Lutheran and half my family still are, and I never heard that belief. All the Lutherans I know believe they are saved by faith and God's grace.

Originally Posted by Ghaniel
Currently, I'm trying to reconcile Protestant and Catholic theology and find that there are few differences apart from in the rituals and the meanings of them. The reason why I'm doing it is part of my study of the Bible.
As for the Ephesians 2: 8-9, I recommend... James 2:24 which says:
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

This refers to works of faith, the things you do when you are filled with the Holy Spirit. It could be helping a man in need, someone who is lonely, an sick orphan child or praying for someone or something.

So works of faith is not slavery and not meant to be a pressure on anyone. It comes from the love of God and His love is inexhaustable. So one can never get tired.

I was on a 5 point Calvinist/Solafide forum and there are some that believe the book of James is not inspired. That didn't go over to well with me as I love reading all the epistles in the NT.
Are there others here that view James as contradicting Paul? [I myself do not]. If this has already been discussed, can you lead me to the topic? Thanks.
Steve

[Ghaniel]

Originally Posted by InChristAlways

I was on a 5 point Calvinist/Solafide forum and there are some that believe the book of James is not inspired. That didn't go over to well with me as I love reading all the epistles in the NT.
Are there others here that view James as contradicting Paul? [I myself do not]. If this has already been discussed, can you lead me to the topic? Thanks.
Steve

No, it hasn't been discussed. That's aactually quite an interesting topic. I read many times in Paul's letters that he refers to the Mosaic law and from that the most logical interpretation is that he always refers to that law when he speaks of the law and works of the law.

James however I will have to study further and I will get back to you unless somebody else gives you some reasonable feed-back.