something a friend said.... - Page 2

lunamoth · 08-26-2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by diamondsouled

Hello ISFP,

Triumphalism is fairly common in religionists, that some Baha'is fall victim to it should come as no surprise.

Abdu'l-Baha' understood: " the Kingdom of God is in not in any Society ".

He understood as well that:

" Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants. So in the world of existence two persons unanimous in all grades [of thought] and all beliefs cannot be found. 'The ways unto God are as the number of the breaths of [His] creatures' is a mysterious truth, and 'To every [people] We have appointed a [separate] rite'* is one of the subtleties of the Qur'án.

(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 91)

Many Baha'is choose to ignore the fact of the truth that: "The ways unto God are as the numbers of breaths of [His] creatures."

There are those that accept this truth as well though.

Yours Larry

"Know this; the Kingdom of God is not in any Society; some seekers go through many Societies as a traveller goes through many cities till he reach his destination. If you belong to a Society already do not forsake your brothers."

Hi Larry,

I am a former Baha'i returned to Christianity. I was attracted to the Baha'i Faith because of such statements as you quote, but I found the reality of being a Baha'i somewhat different. I have seen your other posts elsewhere so I do have an idea of where you are coming from, but I'm wondering if you would be willing to clarify this apparent discrepancy here.

lunamoth

diamondsouled · 08-26-2005, 08:51 PM

Hello Lunamoth,

The cause of the discrepancy as you term I understand to be human nature based.

Rob Preece elaborates on the dynamic which causes such dissonance and or discrepancy, from a Buddhist outlook.

He uses Jung's architypes of Senex and Puer Aeternus religionists to describe the dynamic that manifests itself in religion. That the parallels between his descriptions of how these natural dynamics have effected Buddhism and the present dynamic within the Baha'i Faith are stark is a big eye opener, that is if you are open to having your eyes opened.

The Universalism expressed in Baha'u'llah's and Abdu'l-Baha' Teachings is a beautiful thing to behold. As you noted the reality of membership in the Baha'i Faith is somewhat different than what the Universalism in the Teachings give us as expectations.

Humans will be humans.

When Senex religionists begin the perennial purging of their fellow Puer Aeternus coreligionists a religion has reached a certain state. What usually occurs is a break of the religion into sects which reflect more closely a Senex or Puer Aeternus interpretation of the original religion.

Read Rob's piece, as I said the parallels are both stark and informative:

http://www.mudra.co.uk/mudra_individuation.html

Yours Larry

lunamoth · 08-26-2005, 09:05 PM

Thank you for the reply Larry. But didn't Baha'u'llah (pbuh) more or less say that division into sects would not be a part of His Dispensation and Covenant?

I found it impossible to resolve myself.

lunamoth

diamondsouled · 08-26-2005, 10:36 PM

Hello Lunamoth,

"didn't Baha'u'llah (pbuh) more or less say that division into sects would not be a part of His Dispensation and Covenant?"

That was His intention, Abdu'l-Baha's as well. As the saying goes " the best laid plans of mice and men ".

Shoghi was clear to differenciate between God's Plan and the Faith's Plans. He admitted that at some point God's Plan may override Baha'i Plans.

With Shoghi's death, without having in his own lifetime appointed a successor, it became impossible to fulfill the Covenant as It is clearly spelt out in Abdu'l-Baha's W&T. The Universal House of Justice was to have as It's permanent head a Guardian. A Guardian who could act as a check and balance, a Guardian who had the authority to remove members from the Universal House of Justice as well as the authority to insist on a reconcideration of enactments of the Universal House of Justice which he felt did not reflect the meaning and spirit of Baha'u'llah's revealed utterances. The Baha'i Faith today is sorely missing such a check and balance.

I personally believe that Shoghi was, unfortunately, the first and last Guardian.

I don't believe that the Hands were intentionally misguided when they took over authority in the Faith with no scriptural basis to back them up. They felt they had no alternative and perhaps they didn't, but to let the "superstructure" of the Faith pass and to investigate and run with the "original intention".

Being Senex sort of individuals, as was Shoghi, they chose the former. What we have today in the Baha'i Faith comes about through that Senex bias.

My dream of Baha'u'llah's tent and Taj bears out this interpretation.

In the dream I am camped out on the grounds of Bahji in Baha'u'llah's tent. Within His tent sits His Taj. Raidiant and pristine the illumiation His Taj gives off takes my breath away. When I take pause from contemplating His Taj I'm at first surprised to notice that His tent is quite ordinary. It not only gives off no illumination it is worn and patched in places. All of a sudden it made perfect sense. The tent represented the outer form ( superstructure ) of Baha'u'llah's religion, that form it has it common with all other reiligions; His Taj represented the inner form, the 'original intention' as Abdu'l-Baha' termed it.

I believe it is quite possible to be Baha'i, to be a person of Baha' and not be involved with the 'superstructure' but to focus on the 'original intention'.

This 'original intention' I interpret to mean the purpose for all scripture as Baha'u'llah worded it; the purpose that all men regard one another ' as one soul '.

Without adherence to this 'original intention', this pivotal teaching of the oneness of humanity, without adherence to the most great unity implied in this oneness, all 'superstructures' fail us, including the 'superstructure' of the Baha'i Faith.

There is only us, we are them, 'as one soul'.

Yours Larry

arthra · 08-27-2005, 02:22 AM

First, I that it's true that many people want their religious life independent of any structure and want few responsibilities and cares.

i also think for some that's a necessary part of their growth ...that is to challenge "authority" in their religion and explore truth for themselves.

In the Baha'i Faith we call this independent investigation of truth...and discovering reality for themselves. We become Baha'is as a result of our own search and discovery.

Secondly and no less important is that the Baha'i Faith in most of it's communities around the world calls for a great deal of responsibility on the part of the individual believer. So unlike some other religions where the minister or priest has the responsibility for planning the programs and seeing that the church is vibrant and alive.. the Baha'is themselves in probably most of our communities have the responsibility for the Feasts and how the community is administered through the Local Spiritual Assembly, this is a difficult thing for many who are unused to this kind of discipline and responsibility.

Regarding the Will and Testament of Abdul-Baha the following should be noted:

"The sacred and youthful branch, the guardian of the Cause of God, as well as the Universal House of Justice, to be universally elected and established, are both under the care and protection of the Abha Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of His Holiness, the Exalted One (may my life be offered up for them both). Whatsoever they decide is of God. Whoso obeyeth him not, neither obeyeth them, hath not obeyed God; whoso rebelleth against him and against them hath rebelled against God; whoso opposeth him hath opposed God; whoso contendeth with them hath contended with God; whoso disputeth with him hath disputed with God; whoso denieth him hath denied God; whoso disbelieveth in him hath disbelieved in God; whoso deviateth, separateth himself and turneth aside from him hath in truth deviated, separated himself and turned aside from God. May the wrath, the fierce indignation, the vengeance of God rest upon him!"

The Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 11.

AND

"All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. The Glory of Glories rest upon you!"

The Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 26.

With the passing of the Guardian, his precepts and principles did not pass away but are used continually by the House of Justice in it's deliberations so as an "Institution" the Guardianship is very much with us.

For us Baha'is the unity of our Faith involves recognition of the Center of the Cause and this requires discipline and continuing responsibility which I think are essential to spiritual growth.

- Art

diamondsouled · 08-27-2005, 07:11 AM

Howdy Art,

"All must seek guidance and turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error. The Glory of Glories rest upon you!"

The Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha, p. 26.

With the passing of the Guardian, his precepts and principles did not pass away but are used continually by the House of Justice in it's deliberations so as an "Institution" the Guardianship is very much with us.

For us Baha'is the unity of our Faith involves recognition of the Center of the Cause and this requires discipline and continuing responsibility which I think are essential to spiritual growth.

- Art
-------
As you mentioned recognition of the Center of the Covenant in the present tense I am assuming you are referring to the Universal House of Justice and not to Shoghi Effendi.

That the Universal House of Justice has taken apon Itself the title of Head of the Faith as well as Center of the Covenant, an authority and title not granted them scripturally, is a sign of the measure of their arrogance.

As to the independant search for truth it has be thrown by the wayside by the Universal House of Justice; along with unity in diversity, along with the freedom of conscience, along with investigation into the 'original intention'.

What Shoghi warned of has come to pass. The Faith has become so fixated on the 'minute details', on Ruhi instead of the idependant search for truth, on quarter of a billion dollar terraces, on worldly Baha'i prestiege, that the administration of the Cause use as an instrument has been forgotten, to be replaced by an adminocentric fixation which has come to substitute for Faith in Baha'u'llah and His pivotal Teaching of the oneness of humanity.

" the administration of the Cause is to be conceived as an instrument and not a substitute for the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh, that it should be regarded as a channel through which His promised blessings may flow, that it should guard against such rigidity as would clog and fetter the liberating forces released by His Revelation."

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 9)

" It is surely for those to whose hands so priceless a heritage has been committed to prayerfully watch lest the tool should supersede the Faith itself, lest undue concern for the minute details arising from the administration of the Cause obscure the vision of its promoters, lest partiality, ambition, and worldliness tend in the course of time to becloud the radiance, stain the purity, and impair the effectiveness of the Faith of Bahá'u'lláh."

( Shoghi Effendi World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 9)

Faith in Baha'u'llah has now become secondary to Faith in the Universal House of Justice.

There is only us, we are them, 'as one soul'.

Yours Larry

arthra · 08-27-2005, 07:33 AM

diamondsouled wrote:

"As you mentioned recognition of the Center of the Covenant in the present tense I am assuming you are referring to the Universal House of Justice and not to Shoghi Effendi.

That the Universal House of Justice has taken apon Itself the title of Head of the Faith as well as Center of the Covenant, an authority and title not granted them scripturally, is a sign of the measure of their arrogance."

My reply:

We will have to disagree on this diamond... and part company on this issue.

As I mentioned earlier the House of Justice is always congnizant of the precepts and principles of the Beloved Guardian and so the Institution of the Guardianship continues.

Also we shouldn't forget that the Terraces which were completed a few years ago have only served to beautiful and enhance the "arc" as envisioned by the Beloved Guardian Himself.

And I'd recommend the following article to you and anyone else interested though to read at their leisure:

http://bahai-library.com/articles/flow.html

- Art

BruceDLimber · 08-27-2005, 03:30 PM

Greetings, Luna!

Quote:

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Thank you for the reply Larry. But didn't Baha'u'llah (pbuh) more or less say that division into sects would not be a part of His Dispensation and Covenant?

The point is not that divisions won't occur: they always have, and this is hardly surprising.

The point is that no division or splinter group will last: so far, every such attempt has died out within a generation. Many of the most vocal splinter groups of fifty years ago are now totally gone, and those that still haven't completely died out are still further splintered and arguing with each other.

The Baha'i Covenant, in contrast, is strong, and will endure, just as it has for over a century and a half already!

Peace,

Bruce

BruceDLimber · 08-27-2005, 03:33 PM

I'm sorry, Larry, but that's pure nonsense.

The Baha'i Covenant remains strong, and the Baha'is are doing their best to follow it.

And not only does this include the House of Justice, but it has repeatedly refused to attempt to take on new roles not already assigned to it in our scriptures (interpretation of scripture being a good example).

Nor do study classes, etc. in any way interfere with all this: they are simply tools to assist in furthering the Baha'i Faith as a whole.

Peace,

Bruce

BruceDLimber · 08-27-2005, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

... the House of Justice has repeatedly refused to attempt to take on new roles not already assigned to it in our scriptures (interpretation of scripture being a good example).

Just to clarify what I meant here, the House has REFUSED to take on the role on interpretation of scripture assigned not to it but to the Guardianship.

(This is thus an example of how the House is not trying to expand its scope.)

Bruce

ISFP · 08-27-2005, 04:46 PM

what i will say regarding diamond's comments is this:

that i have found amoung many non-Baha'is looking objectively at the Baha'i Faith an agreement with at least some of diamond's opinions and beleifs.

another point of tension with non-Baha'is regarding the nuances of Baha'i doctrine is the doctrine that, while all religions are part of the same unfolding revelation, that these religions' messages become obsolete in light of Bahaullah's revelations. this is not something often addressed in Baha'i inter-faith gatherings and something that many non-Baha'is (and in truth some practicing Baha'is) are ignorant of.

it's a lack of alignment with what is presented on the outside (i.e. equality of world religions and their continuing validity) with what is believed in truth that has made me a skeptic.

arthra · 08-27-2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISFP

what i will say regarding diamond's comments is this:

that i have found amoung many non-Baha'is looking objectively at the Baha'i Faith an agreement with at least some of diamond's opinions and beleifs.

another point of tension with non-Baha'is regarding the nuances of Baha'i doctrine is the doctrine that, while all religions are part of the same unfolding revelation, that these religions' messages become obsolete in light of Bahaullah's revelations. this is not something often addressed in Baha'i inter-faith gatherings and something that many non-Baha'is (and in truth some practicing Baha'is) are ignorant of.

it's a lack of alignment with what is presented on the outside (i.e. equality of world religions and their continuing validity) with what is believed in truth that has made me a skeptic.

That image you've posted is a favorite of many in our Inter-faith Council where I live..

I don't think though that Baha'is are going out of their way to keep non-Baha'is ignorant. What is "obsolete" is not the spiritual validity or core of past religions or that they had a divine origin.

What changes are the religions ordinances and social principles from age to age... Jesus in the Sermon of the Mount abrogated Deuteronomic Codes... Baha'u'llah abrogated Jihad and so on...

So we are upfront with this when we proclaim the Baha'i principles that are relevant to this age that Baha'u'llah revealed suchas the equality of men and women, the oneness of humanity, and the need for a representative world government and international court to achieve peace and justice.

So i don't see Baha'is deceiving people of other faiths as accepting their spiritual heritage is a part of our faith.

There's also an article by Robert Stockman on the subject of progressive revelation that you may interest you at

http://bahai-library.com/encyclopedia/revelation.html

- Art

diamondsouled · 08-27-2005, 05:43 PM

Howdy all,

The main things which have confirmed for me that the Universal House of Justice is off kilter in left field, and no longer is center of anything let alone a Covenant between God and humanity, are that their words do not reflect their deeds, as well as the fact that it is only appointees of the Universal House of Justice who are now being admitted into its ranks. I don't see this as a nefarious thing I see it as the result of human nature and the all too human propensity to make a posession of all things, including religion.

The Universal House of Justice gives voice to words such as these:"beyond all diversity of cultural expression and human interpretation, religion is likewise one."*Yet their actions in regards to their own coreligionists (Alison Marshall and Michael McKenny) puts the lie to their own words. If religion is one beyond all diversity of human interpretation just exatctly what business does the Universal House of Justice has removing fellow coreligionists from that 'one religion' simply because of their 'human interpretations'? The Universal House of Justice's meddling with the spiritual identities of their fellow coreligionists belies the fact that their words far exceed their deeds, that they are only mummers of such words and have not taken them to heart themselves.

That the Universal House of Justice has taken it apon themselves the judgement of "the convictions", "the ideas", as well as the very "consciences" and "beliefs" of their fellow coreligioinists shows that they are delusionally equating themselves with " the Lord of hearts" Himself, with "the King of kings" Himself. They no longer see themselves as servants of God but as gods themselves:

"These are effectual and sufficient proofs that the conscience of man is sacred and to be respected; and that liberty thereof produces widening of ideas, amendment of morals, improvement of conduct, disclosure of the secrets of creation, and manifestation of the hidden verities of the contingent world. Moreover, if interrogation of conscience, which is one of the private possessions of the heart and the soul, take place in this world, what further recompense remains for man in the court of divine justice at the day of general resurrection? Convictions and ideas are within the scope of the comprehension of the King of kings, not of kings; and soul and conscience are between the fingers of control of the Lord of hearts, not of [His] servants. So in the world of existence two persons unanimous in all grades [of thought] and all beliefs cannot be found. 'The ways unto God are as the number of the breaths of [His] creatures' is a mysterious truth, and 'To every [people] We have appointed a [separate] rite'* is one of the subtleties of the Qur'án."
(Abdu'l-Baha, A Traveller's Narrative, p. 91)

Former Universal House of Justice member Douglas Martin's attitude towards conscience is a proof that the Universal House has strayed far from the Teachings. He not only sees conscience as not being sacred he sees it as something to be supressed, something to be surrendered and handed over to him, a hallmark of cult behavior.

The Universal House of Justice is most obviously a ship without it's pilot.

Shoghi foresaw what the consequenses would be should the World Order of Baha'u'llah become divorced from the institution of the Guardianship:

"Divorced from the institution of the Guardianship the World Order of Bahá'u'lláh would be mutilated and permanently deprived of that hereditary principle which, as 'Abdu'l-Bahá has written, has been invariably upheld by the Law of God."

" Without such an institution the integrity of the Faith would be imperiled, and the stability of the entire fabric would be gravely endangered. Its prestige would suffer, the means required to enable it to take a long, an uninterrupted view over a series of generations would be completely lacking, and the necessary guidance to define the sphere of the legislative action of its elected representatives would be totally withdrawn."

(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 148)

Art's answer that Shoghi Effendi has somehow become Guardian in perpetuity is curious in light of the fact that he and most other Baha'is are all too willing to ignore, overlook, and discount the above words of his.

My only advice to the Universal House of Justice and to Baha'is in general is too: " investigate the original intention ", as Abdu'l-Baha' advised; to turn away from fixation on the "superstructure(s)" of religion and begin showing that they truly understand and are willing to show through their deeds that: "beyond all diversity of cultural expression and human interpretation, religion is likewise one."

"Thus religion which was destined to become the cause of friendship has become the cause of enmity. Religion, which was meant to be sweet honey, is changed into bitter poison. Religion, the function of which was to illumine humanity, has become the factor of obscuration and gloom. Religion, which was to confer the consciousness of everlasting life, has become the fiendish instrument of death. As long as these superstitions are in the hands and these nets of dissimulation and hypocrisy in the fingers, religion will be the most harmful agency on this planet. These superannuated traditions, which are inherited unto the present day, must be abandoned, and thus free from past superstitions we must investigate the original intention. The basis on which they have fabricated the superstructures will be seen to be one, and that one, absolute reality; and as reality is indivisible, complete unity and amity will be instituted and the true religion of God will become unveiled in all its beauty and sublimity in the assemblage of the world."

(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 161)

There is only us we are them, ' as one soul '.

Yours Larry Rowe

*(The Universal House of Justice, One Common Faith)

arthra · 08-27-2005, 05:55 PM

Larry,

I understand you have some strong feelings about the Universal House of Justice but feel they are probably out-of-place here...

and off topic..

Also your reference to Douglas Martin is out of place here and I'd prefer you not mention specific people.

- Art

I, Brian · 08-27-2005, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthra

the Universal House of Justice but feel they are probably out-of-place here...

Would you recommend another thread to discuss the Universeal House of Justice??

Quote:

Originally Posted by arthra

Also your reference to Douglas Martin is out of place here and I'd prefer you not mention specific people.

I'm not sure what the exact position is being taken, but if someone is in authority within the Baha'i faith, then are they not also held account to it, as with any leading figure in any religious group?

This of course presumes that we're still dealing with issues of faith and that we're not verging into libellous territory...