Somethings I just can't accpet.. - Page 2

Postmaster · 04-10-2005, 10:40 AM

The Alcohol industry is a billion pound market, the Mediterranean lives off it, where it be a glass of red wive with your meal which has very good health benifits, it has been like so for thousands of years. I originate from a divided country, where the Turks have the north part of Cyprus, the cultural difference is massive, we would be enjoying a drink of wive which is even given to us in the Church as Christs Blood whereas in the north they don't even sell the stuff. If God knew what he was doing I'm sure he would have left the alcohol issue as a not preferred but not forbidden law, or even within reason law or even not mention alcohol at all. Have we seen the cultural domination of Islam hijack Gods message or are we still awaiting Gods messenger? What’s my family going to do with all there vine fields they use for producing wine?

Maybe the Baha'i faith was created by nothing more then sinfull yet holy saints.

kiwimac · 04-10-2005, 11:32 AM

PM,

Don't be frightened to ask the questions, answers will ONLY come as questions are asked. Read widely from books authored by Baha'is, non-Bahai's, ex-bahai's and folk who disapprove of the Bahai's just on general principles.

I come from the POV of an ex-baha'i so, of course, I carry baggage about aspects of the faith but I would say that, generally speaking, there is no harm in it.

Kiwimac

BruceDLimber · 04-11-2005, 02:07 PM

Hi, Postmaster!

There are several things you should be aware of before you rush to condemn Baha'u'llah or the Baha'i Faith, I think:

It is true that Baha'u'llah had three wives. But it must be remembered that He grew up as a Muslim, and Islam allows four wives.

In fact, the second and third wives were widows of acquaintances of His. You need to remember that in that time and culture, an unattached widow was very much at risk of starving in the street, and it was therefore the custom to marry widows in order to provide them with a home and shelter (since they weren't allowed to live in the household of an unrelated man not their husband); and this is in fact what Baha'u'llad did. Granted, this is different from the custom here, but it was really done as an act of mercy.

It is true that several Babis did try to attack and murder opponents, but Baha'u'llah explicitly condemned them for this! Indeed, He said explicitly ~External enemies cannot harm this faith. What can harm it (and ME) is the actions of those who claim to be my followers, yet commit acts such as this that are forbidden!~

As to the poisoning, Baha'u'llah's half-brother was extremely jealous of Him and did indeed try to poison HIm. The accusation that the reverse happened is merely a lie invented by opponents to slander Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith. The fact that Baha'u'llah was the one poisoned is demonstrated by the fact that though He survived, for the rest of HIs life His handwriting showed a tremor left by the damage to His body (and we have the originals of His writings so that this can be amply demonstrated!).

These are the facts about the matters you raise, and I hope they'll encourage you to investigate all this further! It would truly be tragic if you didn't solely because of lies made by opponents....

My regards, :-)

Bruce

Postmaster · 04-11-2005, 04:05 PM

These conclusions you come to are by far reasonable and I do understand and thought about this reasoning myself.. But my main argument is this faith may have been created by false prophets, the east doesn't drink alcohol and as we know there can be massive amounts of problems relating to alcohol, but were mainly talking about western Europe and the united states, in south Europe we enjoy alcohol whilst celebrating and even within the Church and to many people it's a form of BREAD and by that I mean making a living from it. If this is GOD Almighty’s next message for unity, it's just not going to work, which to me further shows it's a false message. A god given message wouldn't mistake this issue. Further more, the kind of miracles claimed by Christianity hasn't been performed in this religion. I know there is an opposing reason for almost everything that is said including the miracle one but these written miracles are still serviving as proof for people today by the bible

However the alcohol one to me is proof of a false message. How can we be all but one nation? How do we mix oil with water?

9Harmony · 04-11-2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postmaster

.. But my main argument is this faith may have been created by false prophets...

This is something you need to decide for yourself. I too had similar concerns, I was very cautious, I didn't want to be deceived. And you know the conclusion I came to.

And now 12 years later, I still have not found any reason to doubt.

[QUOTE] ...the east doesn't drink alcohol and as we know there can be massive amounts of problems relating to alcohol, but were mainly talking about western Europe and the united states, in south Europe we enjoy alcohol whilst celebrating and even within the Church and to many people it's a form of BREAD and by that I mean making a living from it. If this is GOD Almighty’s next message for unity, it's just not going to work, which to me further shows it's a false message. A god given message wouldn't mistake this issue...QUOTE]

No, actually we're talking about all of humanity. And you are right God wouldn't make mistakes. It seems you are trying to make God conform to what you think should happen? The thing is, this is not something that will probably occur in our lifetime. The message Baha'u'llah brought is going to carry us through the next 800-1000 years. And it is quite possible that over that time, all of humanity will finally recognize that alcohol is not beneficial to us.

Quote:

... Further more, the kind of miracles claimed by Christianity hasn't been performed in this religion. I know there is an opposing reason for almost everything that is said including the miracle one but these written miracles are still serviving as proof for people today by the bible

There are many, many miracles within the Baha'i Faith. It's just that we don't use them to claim proof of this Revelation. But they are there if you want to search for them. One of the most prominent ones that comes to mind, is the martyrdom of the Bab. Which if you haven't read about it yet, you can find it here. http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/nz/DB/db-42.html

Hey, and don't forget the scent of roses. That sounded like a small miracle to me.

Quote:

However the alcohol one to me is proof of a false message. How can we be all but one nation? How do we mix oil with water? ...

Again, I will stress that this Revelation is going to span the next 800-1000 years. We are still approaching maturity as a species, we still have a long way to go. It's going to be a long agonizing process, but one I personally am looking forward to watching as it unfolds. I witness signs of it's unfoldment every day.

Have a wonderful week!

Loving Greetings, Amy

didymus · 04-11-2005, 10:48 PM

I think regardless of the history of this faith and actions taken by its members should not affect the overall message it offers. I think it is ok to believe in the message it offers without subscribing to it 100%. By this I mean, what's wrong with believing what Bab said and saw; we are all one people and one religion under one God. This is true. It doesn't matter if you are a professing Bahai, Christian, Muslim or whatever. Whether people want to believe it or not we are one. The theme of Bahai is very beautiful and truthful. I believe in certain principles of Christianity Judaism and Islam but I don't practice any of them alone. Ilook for what I like and what speaks to me and leave the rest.

Postmaster, I think you are getting overworked about the alcohol thing. To say a religion would never work because the west can't stop drinking is absurd. And to say that God wouldn't orchestrate it like this because people drink is also absurd. Look at what Jesus preached and what Paul preached. Resurrection of the dead, body and blood of Christ etc. Do you think these were acceptable notions in those days? They still aren't today. The Jews were repulsed by blood and Paul ran around talking about the blood of Christ. according to Christians we have the messiah that the Jews missed when everything they say he did as a messiah ran contrary to the jewish belief in a messiah. No wonder they didn't follow.

Don't throw away the beaby with the bathwater.

arthra · 04-11-2005, 11:09 PM

That's OK Postmaster...Thanks for your questions and I would say enjoy your search... If ever you have more questions you'd like to pose, please feel free and post them. We Baha'is love to discuss our Faith!

Or if you'd like to send a personal message to any of us, go ahead!

As to alcohol and it's future... I think it will be around quite a while but I'd like to think that it will be as maybe an alternative fuel and/or cleansing agent.

Have a great day!

- Art

Postmaster · 04-11-2005, 11:16 PM

Quote:

The message Baha'u'llah brought is going to carry us through the next 800-1000 years. And it is quite possible that over that time, all of humanity will finally recognize that alcohol is not beneficial to us.

Just about anything can be lethal is taken in large quantities. Red wine has been discovered to have very good health benefits even if drank everyday with meals. I did smell the roses this I can assure everyone and I stand by it as some sort of phenomenon but I can't justify a faith by it, after all Im human this I realise and this I accpet, it would take something far greater so that I truely know that is a path I should take, me and my family have witnessed an icon of the weeping Virgin in our very house, oil coming from her eyes, happen on 2 occasions!. People experience all sorts of phenomenon’s including being able to smell members of there family long after there death. I search for a greater word, to me nothing as great as the Christ has been experienced by us yet and the second coming would be just as.. It's funny how the Baha'i faith does not forbid Nicotine although I believe it is discouraged. Which kills more alcohol or nicotine? Further more Islam dictates people on a far greater level then Christianity to the extent of illiberalism,the Bahai' faith go on to carry some trates and claim it's the second coming of Christ when it came from the anti-Chrsit? First time round Christ was drinking wine, and told people it was his blood. Now he's a non alcoholic? Di he become illiberal and dictative?

dauer · 04-12-2005, 12:06 AM

Postmaster,

Have you considered the possibility that along with all religious teachings comes a certain cultural, ethnic, regionality? It seems to me that every religion is like this. There are many great teachers, and you don't have to accept their folkways in order to learn from them or even to consider yourself their student.

Baha'u'lah lived in a culture that did not allow alcohol and so when he didn't allow alcohol, this wasn't a radical teaching. This wasn't something new he was bringing the world. He was simply continuing the cultural traditions of the place he was from. If instead he had forbidden orange juice, this would be something new. Then there would be reason to ask why. But he didn't.

You want to drink wine? Drink wine. You want to learn from Baha'u'lah? Learn from Baha'u'lah. Why should this be a reason for conflict?

Sorry. I just don't understand.

Dauer

Postmaster · 04-12-2005, 12:13 AM

Well thing is, one of the reasons I'm posting my arguments is to hearing an opposing one.

Second some claims made by the Baha'i faith don't add up. If it is indeed the new message of God what we find it's just as contradictory as the old ones. The big drawing factor for me towards this faith was that it was the seconding coming of Christ. I had to explore, I did to the point I thought in the future I might even convert.. I did my reading, and I found reasons to believe this false to a GREAT extent.

I have nothing bad to say about the Baha'i faith and in case anyone hasn't noticed I try my best to stay opened minded around here and in fact I contradict myself many times. I'm using this post for nothing more then to aid my discovery and in hope the vice versa for others. Who's to say the Bah'i faith is correct or wrong? Me and you of course. Is it not truth were looking for?

dauer · 04-12-2005, 12:32 AM

PM,

Myself, I make the distinction between truth and Truth. Truth with a capital T is something that's universally true for everybody, in every place. Like if it turns out Shintoism is right. But triumphalism is a real turn-off for me, and such finite Truth defies my understanding of the world also. On the other hand, truth with a lower-case t, that is, my personal meaning, this I do look for. I find it. I create it. Sometimes I just "be" with it. And I don't worry about whether it's Truth or not. I actually insist that it's not. That doesn't mean I won't form opinions about things, but when it comes to speculation I tend to just love my speculation without forming any concrete opinion.

On the other hand, I'll give concrete answers when someone demands it.

I honestly don't see why any of the things you've stated invalidates the teachings of the Bahai faith. Why can't you have your cake and eat it too?

Dauer

Postmaster · 04-12-2005, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Why can't you have your cake and eat it too?

I often ask that question about my myself..

Well, it is agreed that there is one God by many faiths, one has to understand the idea of God and what he stands for so that they can also understand truth. If God is the purest and greatest being of existence of a positive force, then you want to get closer to it. It may well be that some religions are false, then again, may well not, who knows..? From a Christian point of view I'd say there is. Maybe there are different paths, some closer.

dauer · 04-12-2005, 01:32 AM

Well what if Baha'u'lah was really a secular ethicist, or philosopher? Or even a secular experientialist or mystic. And let's say he said some awesome stuff but in this case he was a complete misogynist. He spoke in his books at times of the evils of women and their inferiority. But all of his other insight was golden. The way he saw the world; the trees, people, the works of man, God, everything. It wasn't all exactly what everyone might agree with but some of it was just beautiful.

Is it possible to appreciate and gain from such a person, even venerate him?

If there is good to be had, why does it matter what other claims are being made by an individual? Does this cancel out the value of the good?

Dauer

Postmaster · 04-12-2005, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Is it possible to appreciate and gain from such a person, even venerate him?

And that's one of things I appreciate from this faith

.. But you see one of his faults in my view was the way he spoke about God, so distantly, you see, the normal person does not use all his energy to establish a great faith, maybe the thoughts of a normal man are more potent because they are personal, his mistake was his view on God, he talks of God distantly, Jesus Christ taught me that God was closer and more person someone I can touch. The Baha’i View of God is almost Islamic more distant, the limited miracles documented, shows me something not as great, even Muhammad was limited in this sense compard to Christ. God is far greater then that, the founder of a true faith would have to literally be a son of God. And I know I've once again turned opinionated, I apologises for this, Christ did not need to use energy to give out his word, he was the energy and he came to perform a mission, hense he was called Christ and everything that was writen about him, tells us he performed Godly miracles and even if these miracles were the creation of man, one would question how a lie could create the largest relgion this world has ever had and put the whole question of God back into perspective.

dauer · 04-12-2005, 02:16 AM

You don't have to apologize for being opinionated. I don't like frozen peas!!!

But how do you know there isn't some truth scattered in all religions, some of which might help you? As I was asking before, do you judge the wisdom and insight of a religious text in a different way than that of a secular text? What proves it?

It looks like the proof of a text for you is the story of its origin more than anything else, and also maybe your initial connection to the text from childhood, and maybe also experiences in relation to the text over time. Am I wrong? Close? Far? Need to be ammended?

Dauer