05-13-2005, 12:12 AM
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#16 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Re: Son of God?
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620 apoleipo ap-ol-ipe'-o from 575 and 3007; to leave behind (passively, remain); by implication, to forsake:--leave, remain. 646 apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake. 657 apotassomai ap-ot-as'-som-ahee middle voice from 575 and 5021; literally, to say adieu (by departing or dismissing); figuratively, to renounce:--bid farewell, forsake, take leave, send away. 863 aphiemi af-ee'-ay-mee from 575 and hiemi (to send; an intensive form of eimi, to go); to send forth, in various applications (as follow):--cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up. 1459 egkataleipo eng-kat-al-i'-po from 1722 and 2641; to leave behind in some place, i.e. (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad sense) to desert:--forsake, leave. 2641 kataleipo kat-al-i'-po from 2596 and 3007; to leave down, i.e. behind; by implication, to abandon, have remaining:--forsake, leave, reserve. 1459 is what was used. I personally would rather see people believe in the direction that Jesus is an incarnate God, than the opposite trying to make him less than the bible says he is. Because in his own special way, I believe Jesus is God, but I see it differently than most. I do not believe God turned his back on Jesus or that God could not look upon sin. God can see every sin of all men all at one time, even before they sin. I don't think Jesus literally took all the sin upon him there, as in transfering sins onto one person, but I guess it is ok to see it that way. Each man is responsible for his own sin, God does not put one mans sins onto another. He can apply a curse, but i do not believe God holds one mans sin against another. Jesus removed that curse of death & taketh away the sins of the world, not necessarily takes them onto himself as in imputed. IMO, but I could be wrong there. I think Jesus honestly felt forsaken just before he died, possibly for the time he had spent in a horrible death. Like Q mentioned, He did say into thy hands I commit my spirit, just before he died & I believe God was there for Him through the whole thing. We do not know for sure what it is like to detatch spirit/body until it happens, especially through a very slow death like that. If he were literally God, then God would be speaking to himself, forsaking himself & turning his back on himself. So, once again I think there is more there than what meets the eye & it is deep, a mystery to behold.  Nice replies everyone. |
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05-13-2005, 03:33 AM
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#17 (permalink) |
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Bible Thumper
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: little town called Dallas, Tx
Posts: 1,136
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Re: Son of God?
Colossians1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself;
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name John1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Psalms33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses. 8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. Now even though Jesus(the Word) was fully God at the same time he was fully man. So it is not unreasonable to think he might have had a doubt while on the cross...of course we see in the bible that he was fairly knowledgable of scripture so it could have just as easily have been a quote. Psalms22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? Psalms31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth. Jesus took piercing to His Holy head for all the sins of man in his mind. Jesus took piercing to His Holy hands for the sins committed by man's hands. Jesus took piercing to His Holy feet for every step of man in sin out of God's will. Jesus took piercing to his Holy side for every failed relationship of man with man. 2Corinthians5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Galatians3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree. 1Peter2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on F13 the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. Sorry Bandit we going to have to disagree on this one, I do believe he took all the sins of the world on himself.
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05-13-2005, 08:51 AM
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#18 (permalink) |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 2,572
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Re: Son of God?
Matthew 27:45-46, Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
If Jesus is God, why would He say this? Lets look at this. Psalms 22:1 "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?". Maybe Jesus quoted this Psalm to bring attention to it to show that He was fulfilling the prophecy on the cross. If we keep reading we get His personal viewpoint of what is occuring. Psalm 22:11-18 Be not far from Me, For trouble is near; For there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded Me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.They gape at Me with their mouths, Like a raging and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me. They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me.They divide My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots.. The term 'dogs' was used by the Jews to refer to Gentiles )Matt. 15:21-28). His heart has melted within Him (verse 14). During the crucifixion process, the blood loss causes the heart to beat harder and harder and become extremely fatigued. Dehydration occurs (verse 15). Verses 16-18 speak of piercing His hands and feet and dividing his clothing by casting lots. This is exactly what happen as described in this verse. Matt. 27:35. Then they crucified Him, and divided His garments, casting lots, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet: "They divided My garments among them, And for My clothing they cast lots." He was obviously in a lot of physical pain. How about spiritual pain. Habukkuk 1:13 You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, And cannot look on wickedness. Why do You look on those who deal treacherously, And hold Your tongue when the wicked devours A person more righteous than he? This says that God is too pure to look upon evil so it is possible that when Christ had all the sins in His body while on the cross that the Father turned away spiritually. I believe that would make anyone cry out. Remember how close Jesus is to the Father. One thing is for sure. We cannot begin to understand the utterly horrific experience of having the sins of the world put upon the Lord Jesus as He hung, in excruciating pain, from that cross. The physical pain was immense. The spiritual one must have been even greater. That shows us clearly how much God loves us.
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05-13-2005, 03:40 PM
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#19 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,173
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Re: Son of God?
I just have one question on this. Are some of you saying that every mans sins just automatically bounced off of them onto Jesus right at the crucifixion?
Because I dont see it that way. Somewhere it says if we sin willfully after coming into the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. So the way i am seeing it is, because of the blood & sacrifice of the Son of God, we now have an eternal high priest and an advocate with the Father. We can go to him through repentance & Godly sorrow & ask forgiveness & He will forgive us our sins. I also do not understand where some are saying God cannot look at sin. How can he forgive & redeem us unless we confess our sins. How can He judge righteously if He cannot see every work wether sinful or good. I think God sees every sin & every good work all at the same time. God sees everything. I also do not believe God turned his back on Jesus. The bible does not say that, that I am aware of & I would like to know where this teaching started or is this just an idea that some have about it.?. I see where God turns his back on the wicked, not his only begotten son. Now someone start explaining, how, In one breath you are saying God took all the sins of the world upon himself at that very moment, & the next you say God cannot look at sin & turned his back on himself. I think there is a lot more to it, than closing the casket on this. Quote:
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05-13-2005, 05:07 PM
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#20 (permalink) | |
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New Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 10
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Re: Son of God?
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The original question asks if Jesus was "Son of God" and as a consequence, was He also God. Both questions are answered at the same time. Jesus is also God; if as He says He is the Son of God. First there are attributes of God that make Him God. [b]1/...God cannot lie being God 2/....God cannot deceive; His being God. Jesus said that He and His Father are "one". If they aren't then He lied. Jesus said that "he that hath seen me hath seen the Father". If he lied when He made this statement; he can't be God. If he can't be God and lied in this detail; then the whole basis of Christianity is built on a falsehood. Finally Jesus said that he became human and "took upon himself the form of a servant". There are those of Christianity who make convoluted explanations ; saying that in fact Jesus was 100% human and 100% God. Those against say that the 100% of him that was human died while the 100% of him that was not; looked on the 100% of him that lay dying on the cross. If this is true; then this is deception of the worst kind. He could not have bourne our sins if he bore our sins as God[God hates sin] He would have bourne our sins as human and bourne them entirely human as we humans were meant to bear them in the first place. The powers He exhibited while human, are not different from the God-powers that were previously exhibited by other humans....eg; Elijah raised a dead boy back to life as Jesus raised the dead man Lazarus and the dead girl "Jairus' daughter back to life....eg..Similar powers were exhibited by Peter when he raised the dead woman Dorcas back to life and as Paul, when he raised the dead man Eutychus back to life. The God-powers Jesus used to escape impending death at the hands of those plotting to kill Him is no diffferent from the God-powers used by Paul and Silas to escape from Prison...the same powers as used by Peter to escape from prison as well...and the same powers that countless numbers of God's people have had bestowed on them at the choosing of our Benevolent God. And finally...since God did not lie; and cannot lie; and since Jesus was wholly human; how was He God and human at the same time? Again; He was not God and human at the same time. He, however, knew that He existed as God; and therefore had the power to manifest Himself as God, if He so chooses. He did manifest Himself as God on the mount of transfiguration. At this manifestation He was wholly God; however, when He returned to being human; He was again wholly human and not God....Just as when He was wholly God on the mount of transfiguration and not human in any form; so also when he became human He was never God in any form. Satan cannot tempt God to sin; no matter how hard Satan tries. If Jesus, when tempted by Satan to sin, was also God, then Jesus would be in the same deception business as Satan. Satan would not have attempted to tempt Jesus; and he knew whether Jesus was totally human or not.And Jesus was totally human if only because God cannot lie....When He says He is totally human...He has to be totally human in every respect....and this He has to do for one simple fact only....HE CANNOT LIE! When Jesus died; He the Son of God existed no more; just like when any of us humas die. He existed only as the Father chose; just as we were born as the Father also chose and just as we, after death will be brought back to life again as the father chooses. Paultoo |
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05-13-2005, 07:18 PM
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#21 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Texas, USA
Posts: 2,572
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Re: Son of God?
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Did Jesus Christ bear the sins of us all? We find this at the end of Isaiah 53: "My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. . . . He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many" (verses 11-12). Above that, in verse 6 we read, "and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all." The Hebrew word for "iniquity" in verses 6 and 11 is the word avon. It refers, not just to sin itself, but also to its consequences. Not only did Jesus bear our transgressions, He bore the penalty for those transgressions, as well. Both sin and the consequences of sin were laid on Him. The result is that we can now be justified, or made right, before God. There are two Hebrew verbs in this passage that we should note: nasa and sabal. Nasa means to lift up, or bear away. It is used in verse 4, "He has borne [nasa] our sicknesses," and verse 12, "He bore [nasa] the sin of many." Jesus has lifted our sicknesses and sins off of us and has borne them Himself, taking them far away from us. Sabal means to burden, or to carry. It also is found in verse 4, "He has . . . carried [sabal] our pains," and in verse 11, "He shall bear [sabal] their iniquities." Jesus has burdened Himself with our pains and iniquities. These are substitutionary acts. Jesus did not simply help us bear our own sicknesses and sins, He bore them completely for us. They were all placed on Him. 1 Peter 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness--by whose stripes you were healed. 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, Can God look upon sin? Habakkuk 1:13 is talking about God when it says, "You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness..." Romans 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25 both speak of Christ making "intercession" for us before God the Father. He can look upon our sin; and through the atonement of Christ’s blood we are made clean, so we may have a relationship with our Father God."God’s very nature cannot allow Him to behold evil without punishing the guilty ones." God cannot look upon sin: this is the outcome of his holiness. His stand against sin is always the same: He abhors it and is moved to wrath against it. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:18). Here is that verse that you spoke of Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Btw this only makes sense if you believe that Christ is one part of the trinity. One with God seperate from the Father. The way you believe of course it would not make sense Psalm 32 Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit.When I kept silent, my bones grew old Through my groaning all the day long. For day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; My vitality was turned into the drought of summer. I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I have not hidden. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord," And You forgave the iniquity of my sin. For this cause everyone who is godly shall pray to You In a time when You may be found; Surely in a flood of great waters They shall not come near him. You are my hiding place; You shall preserve me from trouble; You shall surround me with songs of deliverance. I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go; I will guide you with My eye. Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you. Many sorrows shall be to the wicked; But he who trusts in the Lord, mercy shall surround him. Be glad in the Lord and rejoice, you righteous; And shout for joy, all you upright in heart! |
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05-13-2005, 07:42 PM
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#22 (permalink) |
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?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,325
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Re: Son of God?
I think the term, "Son of God," is interesting to ponder in general. We do have Romans 8:14- "For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
I love exploring alternative language translations of the Bible-kind of a lectio divina in itself-& enjoyed the book by Dougla-Klotz, "The Hidden Gospel: Decoding the Spiritual Message of the Aramaic Jesus," in which he muses on the Aramaic meanings of Godpel words given that was presumably the language Jesus spoke. In the book he speaks of that phrase and the Aramaic for "children of God" literally translated as "they shall be hollowed out, or become channels for Unity;" reminiscent of Meister Eckhart's quote re "All God asks of you is to move out of yourself and let God be God in you." But the trick to hollowing out is relativizing our egos for as it also says in Romans 8:26- "...for we do not know what prayer to offer nor how to offer it worthily as we ought, but the Spirit Himself goes to meet our supplication and pleads in our behalf with unspeakable yearnings and groanings to deep for utterance." Have a good one, Earl |
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05-13-2005, 08:38 PM
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#23 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,173
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Re: Son of God?
Quote:
I know Jesus is one with & seperate from the father at the same time. & I thought you were saying 'God' holds himself accountable for everyones sin as if man, is going to punish God for mans own sins. If he cannot look upon sin then he cannot impute it into himself either. Cains sin was imputed into himself not applied to Abel. Adams sin was imputed to himself not applied to another...etc...yet there was a curse that was applied to the generations & this is where Jesus comes in. Going back to the passover. Every door that had blood of the lamb, God passed them over & spared the firstborn male. Every door post w/o the blood of the lamb was taken in death. So I see those who are covered in the blood of Jesus are forgiven, those who are not covered are not forgiven & this is where I do not believe sin was literally transfered/imputed onto another, because the bible tells us some will never repent of there sins & come to God. So, the cross without repentance is still void to those who do not come to God. Rather, through the cross, sins are forgiven, remitted & forgotten & not imputed to anyone. Those not covered by the blood will face the second death. Bearing our sins & pardoning our sins yes Jesus did this, but it does not appear to me that sin was literally transfered/imputed into Jesus, like molecules needing somewhere to go, & certainly not onto God. At the same time, I know he was wounded FOR our trangressions, bruised FOR our iniquity & by his stripes we are healed. so I guess the only place we dont agree is where "My God My God, why hast though fosaken me." You really believe God would forsake Jesus? I still beleive there is more to it than is lying on the surface for why Jesus knew he had to go to Calvary to beg our pardon & make reconciliation. but that is just me & you dont have to believe the same way I do.
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05-13-2005, 08:41 PM
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#24 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
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Re: Son of God?
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05-13-2005, 09:04 PM
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#25 (permalink) | |
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What was the question?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,060
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Re: Son of God?
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God the Father had to look away from his faithful Servant and "Son" without His Godhead. The Father could not look upon the Human Jesus who in fact became the Lamb of sacrifice for human sins...all of them. The sinless "Man", took on the sins of men and sacrificed His life as atonement for men in the eyes of God. That is how I understand it. To me it makes perfect sense, as He told us it would happen.  v/r Q |
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05-13-2005, 11:18 PM
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#26 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
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Re: Son of God?
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. i know he is atonement/sacrificie for mans sins & paid the debt in full, but sin is not money that is 'moved' from one bank to another. it just goes bye bye, never to be remembered. you have sin going into Jesus, so you conclude the father could not look upon him.but i see a lot of smoke rising up toward Gods nostrils in the end of revelations & that smoke is mans sins because some will die in there sins. so i guess some sins did not make it into Jesus. anyway, probably however you explain it, it wont make sense to me because there is more to it than just that, but thanks for trying & no need for me to complicate it for others.
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05-14-2005, 12:53 AM
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#27 (permalink) | |
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New Member
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 10
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Re: Son of God?
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If Jesus did not die, no human; not even Adam could be saved. Jesus died to make it possible and give every human who ever lived, the chance to be saved as long as such huimans are willing to ask God's forgiveness. In times past before the coming of Jesus, forgiveness was given by God to the repentant sinner, by using the blood of sacrificial animals as proxy for the blood of His Son. After his Son was sacrificed His son's blood eliminated the need to use animal bood as proxy anymore. Every human has the same chance to wash himself in the blood of the Lamb. Those who do, believing in the Lord as his Saviour together with following the truth of the scriptures, will be saved. This opportunity to believe in the Lord as Saviour and follow truth is available to each and every human that ever lived. If each and every human was to accept this fact of truth; each and every human would have his sins forgiven; and Jesus would have been responsible for making this possible. Hence each and every sin committed by each and every sinner that is saved; is forgiven only through the blood of Jesus. Those who do not accept Jesus as Saviour, remain in their sins and bear the just reward for being condemned as a sinner. They pay with their own lives in death, the price of eternal death! Those who are saved also pay the price for sin-death; only in their case the price of death was paid by our Saviour and Sacrifice-Jesus. Paultoo |
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05-14-2005, 01:30 AM
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#28 (permalink) | |
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What was the question?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Maryland
Posts: 9,060
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Re: Son of God?
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v/r Q |
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05-14-2005, 03:19 AM
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#29 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
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Re: Son of God?
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05-14-2005, 03:26 AM
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#30 (permalink) | |
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Executive Member
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Re: Son of God?
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