Son of God?

[mosa]

The Son of God!

The Godhood of Jesus has no support in the words of Jesus the Christ as recorder in the Gospels. Jesus has strongly disclaimed Godhood or divinity. Here are his own words:

"

Why callest you me God? There is no God but One, that is, God"

(Mark 10:18)

He spoke of God as:

"My Father and

your Father, and my God and your God."

(John 20:17)

There are

four Gospels included in the bible – the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. They were composed after 40-80 years before the departure of Jesus on the basis of some earlier documents:

1) 'Q' (German Quelle = 'Source') a lost document in Aramaic, which reached the writers of the Gospels in Greek translation.

2) 'Urmarcus' (= Primitive Mark) an earlier draft of Mark's Gospel written on the basis of Peter's discourses about Jesus.

3) 'L' a collection of reports about Jesus used only by Luke.

The authors of the Gospels use these lost documents in somewhat free manner; they do not even hesitate to change some things contained in them to suit their own purpose.

Comparison:

In

'Q'Jesus was regarded as a prophet of God, as a human being and nothing more. In 'Urmarcus'there was an attempt to glamorize his person and attribute many miracles to him; in works of the first and second century he was presented as a mighty angle, the first born of all creation, but still a creature. Finally, in the preface toJohn's Gospeland other works of the third and forth century he was made into a God!

The dogma of Incarnation was taken into Christianity from paganism. In the pre-Christian mythologies we often read of the hero being regarded as a God!

The _expression 'Son of God' has been used for many earlier prophets. For instance,

Israel was called the "Son of God"in one of the books of Moses:

"And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, even My first born."

(Exodus 4:22)

In the Psalms the same title was given to

David.

"I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art My Son, this day have I begotten thee" & nbsp; & nbsp;

(Psalms 2:7)

A little later in the Bible, Solomon also was called the Son of God:

"He shall build a house for My name: and he shall be My Son, and I will be his Father and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever."

(I Chronicles 22:10)

So this phrase "

The Son of God" meant nothing more than nearness to God in love, so every man who did the Will of God (the Father of all mankind which is in the heaven) was given the name "Son of God" as a honor to him. And it was only a metaphorical sense that Jesus called himself a Son of God.

Also this title was given to

peacemakers:

"Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the sons of God"

(Matthew 5:9)

So Jesus stood in the same relation to God as any other man, as you and me, and as all God prophets; Mohammed, Moses, Abraham, Israel and David. He was a creature of God. He feels tired, happy, sad, angry, and he eats, sleeps, and drinks.

In his agony on the Cross, Jesus cried out:

"My God, my God, why hast thou

forsaken me?"

(Mark 15:34)

Jesus pray to God:

"And in the morning,

rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed."

(Mark 1:35)

"And he withdrew himself into the wilderness, and

prayed"

(Luke 5:16)

"

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard from God"

(John 8:40)

mosa

[Postmaster]

They hollywoodised the bible based on Alexander the Great?.. Jesus was sent by God and he was the Messiah but he was no son of God? He was a divine man with a lot more of God in him then any on earth and messenger of Gods words.



Anyone agree with me? Am I wrong? But he was the son of God because we are all children of God and Jesus was more in touch with him. So in this sense he was the son of God.



Jesus is still doing Gods work today. Jesus was the Son of God and he was Gods image on earth, but he was never the almighty ultimate positive symbol of all existence.

And idolisation of Jesus is wrong, but preaching his teachings is the ultimate respect to him anyone can offer him.

[Sacredstar]

The piece of scripture from John 10 below is one of my favorites. Jesus is challenged by the Jews and he answers them.

22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 3

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
'And ye are Christ's and Christ is GOD's'

1 Corinthians 3:23


For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." (2 Corinthians 6:16)



Blessings

Sacredstar

[Bandit]

Hello Mosa and welcome to CR.

I think that first verse reads like this:

Mark10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
I dont believe he was God either, and yes I see him as just as man as you and I.
But I certainly do not put Jesus on the same level as all the other prophets. I dont see anyone else laying down there life for me.

The bible says that God raised Jesus from the dead and hath HIGHLY exalted Jesus and gave him a name above all other names and that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

While he was on earth, It says Jesus was GIVEN the Holy Ghost without measure.
While in heaven Tim2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I am just wondering Mosa, do you believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus?

[I, Brian]

Mosa, you're either here to discuss, or to read. Any more of these silly attacks against Christianity means you get the boot.

There are Muslims here who are happy to discuss Islam and answer interested questions on Islams - but if your purpose here is simply to dump proselytising pastes on the forums then you're simply going to have to move on.

[Quid Est Veritas]

I'm new to this whole "forum-posting" thing, but I've been reading from the site for quite a while and figured that this thread was definetly one I wanted to get in on.

First, I really do respect all the good people of the Jesus Seminar, who all consider themselves Christians but do not regard Jesus as the literal "son of God." One of my favorite authors, Marcus Borg, takes such a view and presents a very challenging ideal of Christianity. BUT the fatal flaw to me in such a mindset is that nothing about the historical Jesus can really be proven. It really does take as much faith to believe in a non-God Jesus as it does to believe in Him as traditionally stated.

Most people like to cite the "Lost Gospel of Q" and other such writings, but the point is that they have been lost. Also, history is not a pure science. It cannot be recreated or observed, so to try to rationalize whether or not Jesus really was the son of God is irrelevant. It is also impossible to be certain as to whether or not he ever claimed such a thing. Certain texts point one way, other texts and historical constructs point the other.

What is relevant however is what affect the person of Jesus has on you. Whether or not his life and words cause you to live a better and more godly life is what is vitally important. We can argue back and forth on issues of historicity, but nothing has ever conclusively proven this issue and nothing ever will. Dogmatic doctrine on either side is a waste of time spent thinking about faith instead of practically putting faith into practice.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Quid Est Veritas, and welcome to CR!

Originally Posted by Quid Est Veritas

What is relevant however is what affect the person of Jesus has on you. Whether or not his life and words cause you to live a better and more godly life is what is vitally important. We can argue back and forth on issues of historicity, but nothing has ever conclusively proven this issue and nothing ever will. Dogmatic doctrine on either side is a waste of time spent thinking about faith instead of practically putting faith into practice.

Amen! I could not have said it any better!

[lunamoth]

Hello Quid Est Veritas, welcome to CR. Great opening post.

I just bought a copy of The Heart of Christianity by Borg and am looking forward to reading it. It's the first thing I've read by him.

And I second Jt3's praise for your take on faith (not that I don't enjoy spending a certain amount of time thinking about doctrine ).

peace,
lunamoth

[Bandit]

It is a title. Why cannot a title be literal?
We are all a son of God. The difference is Jesus was first, so that in all things he may have the preeminence.
I am here and alive in the flesh and I claim to be a son of God. I could not claim this without Jesus going first.
His claim is why the Jews wanted to kill him and one of the reasons he was crucified.
Jesus claimed many titles but he never claimed to be God.

I dont think anyone is ever going to find much physical evidence on Jesus or what happened in the Historical Bible. Yah, that stuff is a waste of time.
It all turned out the way it did because I think that is exactly how God planned it.

Marcus Borg and his books look promising. I might have a look myself.

[khut]

Originally Posted by Bandit

It is a title. Why cannot a title be literal?
We are all a son of God. The difference is Jesus was first

His claim is why the Jews wanted to kill him and one of the reasons he was crucified.
Jesus claimed many titles but he never claimed to be God.

I dont think anyone is ever going to find much physical evidence on Jesus or what happened in the Historical Bible. Yah, that stuff is a waste of time.
It all turned out the way it did because I think that is exactly how God planned it.
.

Hes right thats how God planned it. The jews didnt have jesus crucified, God did.
It was all part of gods plan to inflict great pain on jesus.

and Jesus wasnt the first son of god, adam was.
The son of god in the old hebrew means something slightly different.

[Awaiting_the_fifth]

How about

"Eli, eli, lema sabacthani"

My God, My God, why have you forsaken me. Why would he cry out to God in his moment of pain if he IS god?

Just a thought.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

How about

"Eli, eli, lema sabacthani"

My God, My God, why have you forsaken me. Why would he cry out to God in his moment of pain if he IS god?

Just a thought.

Well, in my understanding the three Persons of the Trinity exist in (perfect)loving relationship with each other. Calling out to each Other while in anguish sounds appropriate to me.

my 2 c
lunamoth

[InLove]

Originally posted by Awaiting_the_fifth

How about

"Eli, eli, lema sabacthani"

My God, My God, why have you forsaken me. Why would he cry out to God in his moment of pain if he IS god?

Just a thought.

Peace to all here--

Interesting question--may I attempt to answer?

Let me preface by saying that this is my own belief, and obviously does not reflect that of all Christians.

Here is my explanation: God the Father, in His complete holiness and being fully God, could not look upon the sin that God, the Son (fully God and fully man) had taken upon himself in order to fulfill the mission of saving grace.

InPeace,
InLove

[ambassador]

Lets not mistake who God is!

God the Son:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God's power and was attested as God's promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things

God the Father
God the eternal Father is the Creator, Source, Sustainer, and Sovereign of all creation. He is just and holy, merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. The qualities and powers exhibited in the Son and the Holy Spirit are also revelations of the Father.

John 5:21-27 Explains
21: For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22: For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26: For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27: And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

[Quahom1]

God cannot look upon Sin. Jesus took everybody's sin onto Him (man are we a sinning bunch). God could not look upon Jesus at that moment in that hour on that day. Jesus, being cut off from His Father, was in anguish (to put it mildly), even if only for a moment. Then when that moment passed, something else happened...Jesus commended His Spirit into God's hands. Something happened to all that sin, and we never talk about that. Where did it go? Did it die with Jesus' natural body?..hence His commending His spirit into the hands of God?

Could explain many things about sin, natural man, and death, vs. pureness, spiritual man and life...

Very Good point InLove.

v/r

Q