Spiritual fascism

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Uhhm, Mike, I appreciate your taking the time and all, but I don't recall asking any questions in the passages of mine you've quoted (other than specific questions to Vajradhara about what he was saying).

I'm not having any questions here, I was just trying to explain to Vaj the Christian take on sin as I had learned it.

In other words, and in all friendliness,

[Curios Mike]

My deepest apologies I thought you where asking for spacific(excuse the spelling) passages.... I'm sorry it was my misunderstanding!

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

No need to apologize - I was just a little confused, and wondering if my earlier post was sounding like something I wasn't meaning it to - I wasn't upset or offended at all!

But you're right, those are pretty specific passages about who will be judging whom, but I don't recall a lot of discussions about them in my churchgoing years. Maybe it's just that my denomination didn't interpret the bible too literally, and the theological emphasis wasn't on judgement anyway. But as I hope I was able to make clear, that was a theological quirk of my denomination and not something common to all Christian denominations.

[Silverbackman]

Originally Posted by Dave the Web

This is a definite concern within Christianity. One of the things that pushes me more from it is the high atitude of superiority, the judementalism, the legalism, and the general ignorance of the words of Jesus. Spiritual fascism as you call it is endemic, even among those who appear as moderates with a friendly smile and wave. Inside they know you're going to Hell and they are not. It is a terrible situation.

Yes its a problem in Christianity and Islam the most. What is suprising is that jews don't tend to think this way, which is suprising because it was there religion that started many of these wacky idea.

[Curios Mike]

Unfortanately, the denom I was apart of was very judgemental, and some still are. But things seem to have been changing before I stop going. anyways If Christ didnt come to judge the world... that is when he was in his flesh, then my question is why do Christian???? Its not our job to condem, but to share the gospel..... But I guess its a feeling of superiority that makes most do such...which is contrary to the teaching of Christ. Christ to to be meek, and lowly, not high and exalted. But As I continue to study people and even myself... this is a very hard battle for most people to wage.

[wil]

If you christian you gotta take the log out of your eye...

Dali Lama says...You know you are enlightened when everyone you see you see as enlightened...

Kabala...all paths lead to G-d

I think my favorite though is those that say that everyone is exactly where they need to be according to their consciousness....all sounds good until they finish in their head....and that is where your consciousness says you need to be.

Life is good, like the title of this site...I think comparison to others is what allows us to see where we are... isn't saying that others are judgemental being judgemental?

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by Silverbackman

Yes its a problem in Christianity and Islam the most. What is suprising is that jews don't tend to think this way, which is suprising because it was there religion that started many of these wacky idea.

I wouldn't say they don't ever feel superior, it's just that they're God's chosen people and they're special. I suppose that's why they're quiet about their faith. It's also because they were not instructed to get other people to follow their faith. As it says somewhere in Exodus/Deutoronomy/Numbers, if there were foreigners among their communities, they would invite them to observe the same traditions and practices as a courtesy of living among them.

It also says in Genesis that God told Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that it was through them that He would bless the nations. Likewise, they don't proselyte so vigourously as they don't need to. The idea is that God will somehow bless the rest of us.

With us Christians and Muslims, we do have this notion of having to tell the world about our faiths, but I think our reasons for doing so are probably not in line with the original mission statements of our faith.

Originally Posted by [b

Dave the Web][/b]
This is a definite concern within Christianity. One of the things that pushes me more from it is the high atitude of superiority, the judementalism, the legalism, and the general ignorance of the words of Jesus.

As for the judgmentalism, legalism and "superiority complex," I don't consider myself superior at all. If you're better than me in terms of being responsible, accountable and making the right choices in life, then all the best!!!

However, I don't think judgmentalism and legalism is a property of the Christian faith. I think there are a few passages where the Bible actually discusses judgmentalism and legalism in the New Testament. One example might be Romans 14:1-12. This is where Paul says that a person who is a vegetarian should not judge a person who eats anything for not following the rules. On the other hand, the person who eats anything is not to despise the vegetarian for following these rules. There might be other examples, but this is one.

I think the judgmentalism and legalism is more of a result of "copy-cat Christianity." This is where Christians, with no better way to understand their own faith, take what someone else says and make that part of their religion. In other words, teachings on Christianity spread by word of mouth rather than through readings of the Bible.

I'm aware that a lot of people often think of Christianity as "the Establishment." It's the notion that Christianity is an institution more than it is a living community of human beings. It's because of a kind of dogmatic and doctrinal view of Christianity among Christians that without these dogmas and doctrines, they don't have Christianity.

This view has been with Christian commuities for centuries, but I don't think that was what the Early Church was actually founded on. I don't think it was the core of the Early Church at all.

I don't think the Early Church was an institution or "Establishment." It was a community with its own conflicts, problems and issues. The role of the apostles was to lead and direct them in a spiritual journey towards God and His Kingdom. There were no founding institutions, dogma or doctrine because these things didn't lead people to the path toward God and His Kingdom (as from a Christian point of view).

The Bible can be very hard to understand, especially with so many different articles in it. To understand it, you first need to know the purpose of each book/article/document in the Bible. This is called exegesis -- figuring out the context of what it meant then and then deciding what it means now.

I've read enough of the Bible to be able to say the following.

1. It is about a spiritual journey to God and His Kingdom.

2. We are all at different points in this journey and each of us has different needs.

3. In this journey there are people to meet and relate to, people to help and people who come to help us. We are all in this together.

The "helping" part is more about our spiritual journey than being some kind of "power source" of altruism. I think this is the mistake among many Christians that creates this "superiority complex," that we're a "power source" of altruism rather than people who help each other because it's one of the things that happen in our spiritual journey.

This means the following.

1. No judgmentalism
2. No legalism
3. No dogma
4. No doctrine
5. No institutions
6. No worldly/earthly political system or so-called "Establishment"

Instead, as Peter says, we are living stones of God's Temple (1 Peter 2:5)

The judgmentalism and legalism is not part of the Christian faith itself, but comes from Christians. While we are at different stages of the spiritual journey to God and His Kingdom, the idea is not to "judge and condemn" but "assess/examine and advise/warn/mentor."

Of course, you might still think my spiritual journey is still part of some "superiority complex," but to me it's just a spiritual journey.

[kabir]

Spirituality has never been a group project. God doesn't care about what organisations we're in good standing with. God knows the Truth about each of us.

jack

[wil]

As said earlier...extends everywhere...at peace rallies they have signs that say kill Bush and Cheney....those that are pro-life bomb and kill people at abortion clinics....to teach people not to kill, we have the death penalty...

It all makes great sense to me. After all I know better...do as I say, not as I do.

namaste,

[harticulate]

Originally Posted by wil

... isn't saying that others are judgemental being judgemental?

Wil..............I think you have become my spiritual advisor. A good friend tells you the things you don't want to hear, instead of humouring you by agreeing just to not rock the boat.

In my endeavor to bring to light the harm of being judgemental..........I in turn was judgemental..I became the that which I disliked.

It is much easier just to let my inner feelings about myself dictate how I feel about myself..............instead loathing my judger.

If I am to be labeled a sinner...........let the labeler be stuck with the label........I am a lover of Christ .........that is what I am.

Heidi

[InquisitiveInHalifax]

Originally Posted by Fern

I was told daily as a child "The ground is level at the foot of the cross, you are no better than they and they are no better than you". I often challenge those who state they are superior to me to live up to this message - sometimes they do, sometimes they don't - but they almost always think about it.

I don't know a lot about other faith traditions, but my guess is that there is something in them all which says something similar to the saying my mother taught me as a child. I'm willing to bet that God - whoever you see the deity as - loves each and every one of us, equally, For some reason, this thought or belief seems to elude us quite frequently, hence, we become sure that God loves us more because we are right - or more right than 'those' people... A sad commentary on human kind.

Peace to all,

Fern

The message my mother has been trying to teach me the last few years since she's entered into A.A., albeit a little late in my life, is 'Would you rather be right or be happy?'. For some reason this thread brought that to my mind. I wish that I could claim that my ego hasn't driven me to want to be right instead of happy but I am no better than anyone else, it's the human condition. We all want to be right sometimes, we all want to be loved and for some reason we seem to think that in order to be loved we must prove ourselves more worthy than another. My mother may not be a well-educated woman but she's one of the smartes people I know

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by InquisitiveInHalifax

The message my mother has been trying to teach me the last few years since she's entered into A.A., albeit a little late in my life, is 'Would you rather be right or be happy?'. For some reason this thread brought that to my mind. I wish that I could claim that my ego hasn't driven me to want to be right instead of happy but I am no better than anyone else, it's the human condition. We all want to be right sometimes, we all want to be loved and for some reason we seem to think that in order to be loved we must prove ourselves more worthy than another. My mother may not be a well-educated woman but she's one of the smartes people I know

That's ok, the world runs on smart people. See, smart people surround themselves with intelligent people, in order to insure the job gets done...

Your mom I think, is showing you that you are both, and suggesting you make use of your dual talents. I know where she is coming from (albeit late). To be happy is to be alive. Right, however can be dead right. And dead it dead, regardless of how right we were.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[Therapon]

Originally Posted by foundationist.org

I have met quite a few people in life who claimed to be spiritual … even somewhat enlightened – yet these people I know have the very nerve to regard themselves as superior also – and even state that those who are not as enlightened as they have no particular right of life.

This is Spiritual Fascism.

I thought it was called Gnosticism (No disrespect to Gnostics intended)

I'm sure that the idea of a spiritual hierarchy is quite acceptable provided that those at the top are not antagonostic, bullying or patronising but are concerned about and helpful to those on the lower steps of the ladder

[wil]

1. a. The Dali Lama says you know you are enlightened when everyone you see you see as enlightened.

b. My preacher says, so I go to the mall to see how far I have to go.


2. a. The first indication someone isn't enlightened is that they say they are.


b. The second sign is when they say they are more enlightened than you.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by wil

1. a. The Dali Lama says you know you are enlightened when everyone you see you see as enlightened.

b. My preacher says, so I go to the mall to see how far I have to go.


2. a. The first indication someone isn't enlightened is that they say they are.


b. The second sign is when they say they are more enlightened than you.

Wil:

LOL

flow....