star

[Bandit]

"Where is he who is born King of the Jews? For we saw his star in the east, and have come to worship him."

it seems to me, both, the star & the worship belong to Jesus.

we could interpret, the devil pushed glenda the good witch out of her glass bubble, jumped inside & he turned into a big lightening bug. the devil floated into the sky & whispered to the astrologers...follow my devil star & you will find the child & you can worship me.
hmmm, what imagination can do.

in years passed, i have found english teachers who do not even believe in the bible, to be some of the best interpreters ever.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

well after doing some research i think that the star refered to here is refering to King David(2 samuel8;2)this was the initial fullfillment of this prophecy.since David foreshadowed Jesus as messianic king, the prophecy would also apply to jesus at the time when he subdues his enemies. (Isaiah 9;7) (psalm2;8,9)so it is not refering to the star in the sky that the astrologers followed

Except that David was human...not a star, and Jesus never subdued anyone. And the MAGI were not astrologers in the current sense. They were men of great wisdom of the time. They were Astronomers. They were monotheists, and they were seeking the savior. Smart men those Magi. They also had God's favor. (special favor I should think). And they listened to the word of God, and obeyed Him to the letter and spirit of the law.

Another lesson for us to learn...

v/r

Q

[InLove]

Hi--Peace--

Incidentally, did the Magi not wind up bringing glory to God in the longrun by acknowledging His Word over their own calculations and wisdom by returning home another way?

Just a 2-center....

InPeace,
InLove

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Bandit

"Where is he who is born King of the Jews? For we saw his star in the east, and have come to worship him."

[font=Arial]it seems to me, both, the star & the worship belong to Jesus.

Hiya Bandit, I agree.

lunamoth

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Except that David was human...not a star, and Jesus never subdued anyone. And the MAGI were not astrologers in the current sense. They were men of great wisdom of the time. They were Astronomers. They were monotheists, and they were seeking the savior. Smart men those Magi. They also had God's favor. (special favor I should think). And they listened to the word of God, and obeyed Him to the letter and spirit of the law.

Another lesson for us to learn...

v/r

Q

as far as i am aware , the bible does at times refer humans to stars.Stars are used in the bible in a figurative sense and in metaphors or similes to represent persons, as an example, there is Genesis 37;9 -10were Josephes dream inwhich his parents were represented by the sun and moon, and his 11 brothers by 11 stars. Jesus will subdue ,that is part of his aurthority ,as psalm 110;1-2 informs us that Jesus will go subduing in the mist of his enemies.
(Revelation 6:2) And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.

also jesus himself spoke of himself as the bright morning star
"‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.(rev 22;16) any way , those astrologers were not that smart they were 2 years late because Jesus was about 2 by then ,thats why herod had the baby boys killed 2 and under to make sure he killed Jesus

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bandit

"Where is he who is born King of the Jews? For we saw his star in the east, and have come to worship him."

it seems to me, both, the star & the worship belong to Jesus.

we could interpret, the devil pushed glenda the good witch out of her glass bubble, jumped inside & he turned into a big lightening bug. the devil floated into the sky & whispered to the astrologers...follow my devil star & you will find the child & you can worship me.
hmmm, what imagination can do.

in years passed, i have found english teachers who do not even believe in the bible, to be some of the best interpreters ever.

according to the bible Jehovah anounced the birth of Jesus this way to his followers

"There were also in that same country shepherds living out of doors and keeping watches in the night over their flocks. And suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them, and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. But the angel said to them: ‘Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city. And this is a sign for you: you will find an infant bound in cloth bands and lying in a manger.’ And suddenly there came to be with the angel a multitude of the heavenly army, praising God and saying: ‘Glory in the heights above to God, and upon earth peace among men of goodwill.’"—Luke 2:8-14.so Jehovah did it through an angel not a star

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by mee

according to the bible Jehovah anounced the birth of Jesus this way to his followers


—Luke 2:8-14.so Jehovah did it through an angel not a star

Then Herod secretly called the wise men, and learned from them exactly what time the star appeared.....

.....Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked by the wise men, was exceedingly angry, and sent out, and killed all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all the surrounding countryside, from two years old and under, according to the exact time which he had learned from the wise men.

i would say the wise men were not late but right on time.
& that God did also use the star to announce the birth of Jesus. (when & where)
& I would say these men were very smart, because they listened to God in the dream & not Herod.

Now it appears to me that they saw the star at the same time, or about the same time Jesus was born. Given that Herod asked what time the star appeared & his decree to kill males under two, tells me the wise men must have been watching it for about two years before they travelled.
It was not until after Herod realized he had been mocked by the wise men, that he put the decree out to kill all 2 & under...

From this we see 2 other prophecies being fulfilled - ( Ramah, lamentation, weeping and great mourning)
AND
"Out of Egypt I called my son."

Just because someone may live in a bad area does not mean every person living there is evil & there is nothing in there that tells us the wise men were evil watching an evil star. Nothing.
Only someone today surmizing.
Anyway Mee, I give up & you win, it was a devil worship star.

[mee]

Originally Posted by Bandit

Then Herod secretly called the wise men, and learned from them exactly what time the star appeared.....

.....Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked by the wise men, was exceedingly angry, and sent out, and killed all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all the surrounding countryside, from two years old and under, according to the exact time which he had learned from the wise men.

i would say the wise men were not late but right on time.
& that God did also use the star to announce the birth of Jesus. (when & where)
& I would say these men were very smart, because they listened to God in the dream & not Herod.

Now it appears to me that they saw the star at the same time, or about the same time Jesus was born. Given that Herod asked what time the star appeared & his decree to kill males under two, tells me the wise men must have been watching it for about two years before they travelled.
It was not until after Herod realized he had been mocked by the wise men, that he put the decree out to kill all 2 & under...

From this we see 2 other prophecies being fulfilled - ( Ramah, lamentation, weeping and great mourning)
AND
"Out of Egypt I called my son."

Just because someone may live in a bad area does not mean every person living there is evil & there is nothing in there that tells us the wise men were evil watching an evil star. Nothing.
Only someone today surmizing.
Anyway Mee, I give up & you win, it was a devil worship star.

i would just like to make clear that the reason i started this thread was to reason on the scriptures ,and not to win anything .i am sorry that it was taken that way that was not my intention. but for me , the bible tells me that Jesus was prophecied to be born in bethlehem and he was ,but the astrologers were taken to where Jesus was now living 2 years later ,
So all the evidence is against the "star" being from God, for God does not direct his people by movements of stars. But those magi were astrologers and star worshipers, no matter how sincere their hearts might have been respecting the "King of the Jews". (Deut. 4:19; 2 Ki. 17:16; Isa. 47:13, 14) The Devil used them unwittingly in an attempt against the life of the young child Jesus .and yes ,you are right there are many prophecies relating to Jesus that were fullfilled
Messianic prophecy is also found in the book of Hosea. Matthew applied the words of Hosea 11:1 ("out of Egypt I called my son") to the child Jesus, who was taken into Egypt but was later brought back to Israel.—Mt 2:14, 15

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

i would just like to make clear that the reason i started this thread was to reason on the scriptures ,and not to win anything .i am sorry that it was taken that way that was not my intention. but for me , the bible tells me that Jesus was prophecied to be born in bethlehem and he was ,but the astrologers were taken to where Jesus was now living 2 years later ,
So all the evidence is against the "star" being from God, for God does not direct his people by movements of stars. But those magi were astrologers and star worshipers, no matter how sincere their hearts might have been respecting the "King of the Jews". (Deut. 4:19; 2 Ki. 17:16; Isa. 47:13, 14) The Devil used them unwittingly in an attempt against the life of the young child Jesus .and yes ,you are right there are many prophecies relating to Jesus that were fullfilled
Messianic prophecy is also found in the book of Hosea. Matthew applied the words of Hosea 11:1 ("out of Egypt I called my son") to the child Jesus, who was taken into Egypt but was later brought back to Israel.—Mt 2:14, 15

I would like to see the specific evidence proving:

The star was not of, nor from God.
The Magi were "star worshipers"
The Magi were astrologers (implying they used the movements of the heavenly bodies to reveal the future). Seems to me they used the movements of the heavenly bodies to prove prophecies already revealed.
The Magi were not wise enough to note the evil of Herodus.

It took them two years to find Jesus? It took them much longer than two years. They started before He was born, and only finally found Him two years after His birth. And when the star disappeared, they gave in and asked the king of Judea where the promised one might be (which disturbed Herod greatly).

I think that God uses all for the greater good, eh, isn't that something you've said in the past?

When they found the child, the gifts they brought were not the kind of toys one gets from K-mart. Each gift foretold the future of the child, to those wise enough to realize it. Gold, Frankensence, and Mhyrr. The significance of these "gifts" to a "child" should not be left on the back burner...

Even if they carried them only two years as you imply, two years is a long time to carry such expensive and deadly serious "gifts", for an infant/toddler. By the way. Birthday gifts were not common 2000 years ago. Common folk's children certainly did not receive an audience and "gifts" of such magnitude, on a regular basis.

Reading the movement of the stars I suspect was for the Magi. Seeing the star, was I suspect, for the shepards on the night of the birth of the Savior.

But then, faith is all we really have to go on, isn't it...

v/r

Q

p.s. there wasn't any snow on the ground. Sheep aren't kept by shepards in snow, they're kept in pens, and it doesn't snow much in Israel. Jesus was probably born in the fall (or mayhap early spring). 25 December we both agree, is a construct of convenience, for northern "pagan" folk, that the church wanted to buy into the savior...

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I would like to see the specific evidence proving:

The star was not of, nor from God.
The Magi were "star worshipers"
The Magi were astrologers (implying they used the movements of the heavenly bodies to reveal the future). Seems to me they used the movements of the heavenly bodies to prove prophecies already revealed.
The Magi were not wise enough to note the evil of Herodus.

It took them two years to find Jesus? It took them much longer than two years. They started before He was born, and only finally found Him two years after His birth. And when the star disappeared, they gave in and asked the king of Judea where the promised one might be (which disturbed Herod greatly).

I think that God uses all for the greater good, eh, isn't that something you've said in the past?

When they found the child, the gifts they brought were not the kind of toys one gets from K-mart. Each gift foretold the future of the child, to those wise enough to realize it. Gold, Frankensence, and Mhyrr. The significance of these "gifts" to a "child" should not be left on the back burner...

Even if they carried them only two years as you imply, two years is a long time to carry such expensive and deadly serious "gifts", for an infant/toddler. By the way. Birthday gifts were not common 2000 years ago. Common folk's children certainly did not receive an audience and "gifts" of such magnitude, on a regular basis.

Reading the movement of the stars I suspect was for the Magi. Seeing the star, was I suspect, for the shepards on the night of the birth of the Savior.

But then, faith is all we really have to go on, isn't it...

v/r

Q

p.s. there wasn't any snow on the ground. Sheep aren't kept by shepards in snow, they're kept in pens, and it doesn't snow much in Israel. Jesus was probably born in the fall (or mayhap early spring). 25 December we both agree, is a construct of convenience, for northern "pagan" folk, that the church wanted to buy into the savior...

for me i find that reasoning on the scriptures their is no evidence in the bible to say that the star was from God , the astrologers said it was , but they were not worshipers of true religion ,they were worshipers of a practice that was condemed by God.also i did not say it took them 2;years to find jesus ,i said that Jesus was about 2when they found him i dont know how long they were looking for him.
circumstantial evidence is strong that the ma´goi who visited the infant Jesus were astrologers. Thus The New Testament translated by C. B. Williams reads "star-gazers," with a footnote in explanation: "This is, students of stars in relation to events on earth." Fittingly, then, modern English translations read "astrologers" at Matthew 2:1.—AT, NE, NW, Ph......so yes the messiah was expected this would have been known by the true worshippersby looking at the scriptures .but the astrolorgersbeing involved with false religion would have heard about the king of the Jews (Jesus)but did not know where he would be born . i think satan is very much involved with false religion, but God will make sure that his(Gods) purpose will be fullfilled no matter what false religion plans out ..........also i am not sure what you mean about snow i didnt mention snow

[InLove]

Hello, and Peace to All Here--

Mee, I am going to attempt to address you in the best way I know how, that being in the Spirit of Love, for God is Love.

I just cannot help but wonder what your motive is? Please forgive me--I just can't seem to find another way to ask the question.

I admit that I am not very educated in the doctrine of the Jehovah's Witness. But the very name of that organization suggests that this is a group of people concentrated on witnessing about God. I guess I don't know exactly what you believe about Christ. So my apologies if I am misunderstanding your intent.

It just seems to me that if you spent as much time promoting Jehovah as you do tearing apart His Word, then you would bring to Him so much more glory.

I believe that we are indeed encouraged in the Word to examine the Scriptures. But I do not believe that focusing on divisions of thought that take away from the whole of the message is fruitful.

I hardly ever post anything like this, but I really am interested in your reply, if you care to give one.

It is not my intent to hurt anyone's feelings. I hate that. But I have been following some of your discussions for a while now, and frankly, I just do not understand. And I am a very understanding and open-minded person.

Hope you can understand why I feel the need to ask you the things I have asked.

InPeace,
InLove

[mee]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hello, and Peace to All Here--

Mee, I am going to attempt to address you in the best way I know how, that being in the Spirit of Love, for God is Love.

I just cannot help but wonder what your motive is? Please forgive me--I just can't seem to find another way to ask the question.

I admit that I am not very educated in the doctrine of the Jehovah's Witness. But the very name of that organization suggests that this is a group of people concentrated on witnessing about God. I guess I don't know exactly what you believe about Christ. So my apologies if I am misunderstanding your intent.

It just seems to me that if you spent as much time promoting Jehovah as you do tearing apart His Word, then you would bring to Him so much more glory.

I believe that we are indeed encouraged in the Word to examine the Scriptures. But I do not believe that focusing on divisions of thought that take away from the whole of the message is fruitful.

I hardly ever post anything like this, but I really am interested in your reply, if you care to give one.

It is not my intent to hurt anyone's feelings. I hate that. But I have been following some of your discussions for a while now, and frankly, I just do not understand. And I am a very understanding and open-minded person.

Hope you can understand why I feel the need to ask you the things I have asked.

InPeace,
InLove

Hi there,my motive as one of Jehovahs witness is to try my best in my imperfect state to always bring glory to Jehovah God and jesuschrist as his king. and to make known the wonderful promises in the bible regarding gods kingdom goverment ,that will bring peace to this earth . if as you say , you have followed my posts you will see that i will always bring to the fore Gods kingdom goverment as this is the only hope for mankind. but i also believe that many people are misled into believing certain things that are false . and not based on accurate knowledge of the bible. so as i feel that it is very important that these falsehoods are made known, i am not ashamed to do this , this is not bringing dishoner to the true God Jehovah but it is making known falsehood . that is what i feel is important (accurate knowledge )not beliefs based on falsehood , if people are offended by this that is not my problem i am only interested in truth.so rather than tearing down the bible i feel that it is right to make known falsehood and lead others to an accurate knowledge
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ(John 17;3)

[InLove]

Hello, and Peace,

Thank you for your reply, Mee. I hope you understand that I just needed to ask. While I disagree with your method and some of what you say, I can relate to how you feel about it.

No hard feelings or harm done, I hope.

InPeace,
InLove

[Bandit]

according to some of the interpretation here, we would also have to conclude that every star & planet in the universe was put there by the devil, because they have all been studied & worshipped. (especially venus, jupiter & saturn)

we would need to conclude:
1) everyone living in Las Vegas is a gambler & a devil worshipper because the area is corrupt (& i have no doubt that it is corrupt, been there & done it).
2) all harlots, even Rahab & the one Jesus forgave are of the devil, because Rahab lied, but God spared her because she lied in love.

...and so on & so forth.

i say there is a severe lack of evidence to draw any definate conclusion that the devil put this star there or that these particular men were bad magicians.
Even if they were, God used them in this! & not satan.
I also consider & from what I can see, these men were following the prophecy in scripture & not pagan prophecy or that of the twinkle toes like a Jeanie.

the devil (whom Herod allowed himslef to be influenced by) seeks to destroy & bring confusion. neither these magoi or the star did any such thing. rather they were men who were seeking for the King of Kings & fulfilling at least 3 prophecies. Which in all reality-

He was seeking for me, Jesus was seeking for me
Though I knew him not, still he loved me
and was seeking for me
AND...
Wise Men still seek Him

here is another source from the catholic encyclopedia, for anyone interested so they can finish there studies.
i do not agree with everything said at the site, but it is just another view to consider.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09527a.htm

[mee]

Originally Posted by InLove

Hello, and Peace,

Thank you for your reply, Mee. I hope you understand that I just needed to ask. While I disagree with your method and some of what you say, I can relate to how you feel about it.

No hard feelings or harm done, I hope.

InPeace,
InLove

thats ok, no harm done at all