Submit to God - Hypocrisy

[kiwimac]

There is indeed a conflict between the strong emphasis of our culture and the religions inculcated within that culture and the call to "submit to God."

It is a difficulty found in most of the Abrahamic faiths, however, it is not found in Zoroastrianism or the majority of faiths which make up the Indian Faith Traditions. I wonder if the dichotomy here is as simple as 'individuation vs. community?'

Kiwimac

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Ah my friend, but I do not misunderstand. I consider myself to be part of the Jewish (Hebrew) belief in God. I am not separate. Judasim is the root of the tree of which I am a branch.

They are both the root tree (as is the spirtitual truth of Buddhism, Islam, "primitive" mythological traditions, etc.) of which we are all branches (and roots and leaves and bark).

[Abogado del Diablo]

Quahom1:

The "misunderstanding" I was referring to didn't involve you. It was the misunderstanding about my use of the term "Judeo-Christian" I had with "bananabrain." Just thought I'd clarify.

[bananabrain]

a big part of the Christian tradition is carrying forward (in a modified way) the mythology of Judaism - a fact that should be considered anytime one is talking about Christian ideas.

that's as may be - but where these christian ideas treat judaism as a straw man, as a draft which needs christian redrafting, or as anything less than a self-sufficient, well-integrated system of thought, then i take issue with it. the very phrase "old testament" implies a new one; needless to say it is not a jewish name.

I'm having trouble seeing where I said that Judaism is "christianty minus jesus."

sorry - no, you didn't say that exactly, but most often when people say "judeo-christian" they have no idea about the judeo bit of it and consequently ascribe ideas and opinions to judaism which are at best misleading and at worst highly prejudicial.

Originally Posted by quahom1

The original concept of "Christianity" was conceived of and brought to fruition by Jews. Christianity was preached inside Jewish Synogogues for almost 250 years before the eventual split between the two "systems" of faith. The split was not due to a difference in belief concerning God, but rather interpetations of law. Proto-Christians who became "Gnostics" shunned the old testament, wherein the Jews relied heavily upon it. The Gnostics' arrogance enraged the Jews, and the Jewish stubborness bred contempt within the Gnostics.

actually, the problem was that the proto-christians said jesus was the messiah and the majority jewish community decided that he wasn't. furthermore, the proto-christians insisted that the authority of jesus could overrule the Torah. neither of these things are issues you can gloss over. when you bring the gnostics into it, the problem of the Unity of the Divine arises; again, not something judaism can relinquish.

Basically they agreed to take "the ball" and go to their respect homes, because they couldn't agree on the rules of the game.

actually, from the Talmudic PoV, it was more a case of "we're playing football, you're insisting the ball can be carried and be a different shape and that means it isn't football any more", the result being that the christians had to go off and build their own stadium for playing rugby in.

Judaic-Christianity is in fact the correct way of describing the following of Jesus the Christ (the Jewish Carpenter and Rabbi, of extraordinary knowledge and insight).

nobody is saying he wasn't a rabbi, or a carpenter, or a man of extraordinary knowledge and insight. in fact, many of the things he said are entirely compatible with rabbinic judaism (the sermon on the mount being a good example) - but what we are saying is that he wasn't the messiah, for the good reason that the messianic age didn't come about, the Temple was destroyed and the jews went into a 2000-year exile. it just doesn't make sense.

Jesus WAS Jewish. He was a priest.

actually, according to the genealogy that has him directly descending in the male line from king david (whether or not you place credence in that) and that would make him a member of the tribe of judah. the priests or kohanim are members of the tribe of levi, male-line descendants of the family of aaron. he can't be both. you cannot inherit both the keter malkhut and the keter kehuna.

The core of Christian faith is based on the life and teachings of a Jewish Rabbi. Can't have one without the other.

you can if he teaches something which contradicts the Torah as interpreted by normative jewish opinion. if you understand how jewish law and legal authority works, it makes perfect sense to respect jesus as a reformer but not as an authoritative interpreter of the halakha, as the debate over his desecration of the sabbath ought to show.

Judaism is the root of the tree of which I am a branch.

i'd say it's more like the tree that your seed came from, but your tree is a separate tree nowadays, although in the beginning they were one.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[samabudhi]

the very phrase "old testament" implies a new one; needless to say it is not a jewish name.

I usually equate old with wise. A school of Buddhism, Theravada, means path of the elders.

[Marsh]

Before we begin a discussion on whether submission to God is hypocrisy or not, shouldn't we define (at least in general terms) what we mean by "submit"? The reason why I ask is because my view of submitting to God seems far different than the one taken by this psychiatrist.

When I think of submitting to God, I don't think of myself lying prostrate on the floor for all eternity so that God can wipe his feet on me like I'm some sort of carpet. I look at submitting to God like this: To recognize that God's way is best, and to follow it because of the knowledge that it is best.

One of my biggest criticisms of religion in general is the way that it builds things up to be things they aren't, be it ceremony, scripture, or even deity. Especially for monotheists such as ourselves, I think it is fair to say that we were created by God for a reason; we don't exist by accident. God created us all-- down to our character traits, down to our desires and fears, down to our very eye colour-- for a specific purpose or purposes. The thought that my purpose is to completely lose my identity and become a brick in a wall seems absurd to me.

Human rules are oppressive; God's rules are liberating: by following them, we may live freely, without feeling a burden of guilt. I look at submission as a good thing: By giving up practices that deep down I know are destructive (promiscuity, the use of narcotics, lashing out in anger to hurt others), I have found life to be much easier to live.

For those who will accept it, the apostle James said if we humble ourselves before God, he will lift us up. This is, I believe the true nature of submission: We do it not so that God will trample us, but so that we will allow him to lift us up.

[alexa]

I have read all the replies for this thread and as I cannot make up my mind to whom I should reply, here you have a poem, by Ademar Barras.

Please forgive me if the translation is not the best, as I have to do a translation of a translation :

The poem is : A dream in a christmas day

I had a dream on the nightfall of Christmas :
I was walking on the beach and God was walking besides me.
Our footprints were writing on the sand,
Leaving a double trace:
One it was mine, the other was his.
Then an idea crossed up my mind :
every day, from our footprints represent a day of my life.
I had stopped to look behind me
and I saw in some places
instead of two trace, there were only one on the sand.
I saw the movie of my life.
What a surprise ! The places where you could see only one trace
were the most difficult days of my life;
days of restlessness and dishonesty;
days of selfishness and bad humour;
days of trials and doubts;
days unbearabls;
days when I was unbearable
and then, returning my face to God
I dared to reproach him:
However you have promised you'll be with us every day. Why didn't you keep up your promises ? Why did you let me alone in the most difficult days of my life, the days I needed you the most.
And God answered to me :
My dear child, the days you could see only one trace on the sand are the days when I had carried you in my arms.

alexa

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Marsh

Human rules are oppressive; God's rules are liberating: by following them, we may live freely, without feeling a burden of guilt. I look at submission as a good thing: By giving up practices that deep down I know are destructive (promiscuity, the use of narcotics, lashing out in anger to hurt others), I have found life to be much easier to live...

For those who will accept it, the apostle James said if we humble ourselves before God, he will lift us up. This is, I believe the true nature of submission: We do it not so that God will trample us, but so that we will allow him to lift us up.

Funny you should speak this way. I had a dream once that was so lucid, it startled me awake, with more than misty eyes.

In the dream I saw a modern soldier dressed to the hilt in the latest combat gear and armament. After walking through an arid piece of land the soldier stood observing a mob of "barbarians" with spears, swords, ancient armor and flowing wraps of wragged cloth. They were in front of some roman crusifixes. Recognizing the scene, enraged by what he saw, and thinking "He was capable" of immediately correcting the situation, the modern soldier raised his superior weapon and "sigthed in" on the barbarians.

But as he began to pull the trigger, he realized his sights had drifted and now the cross hairs of his weapon's scope had one of those hanging on a cross, targeted. This rattled him to his core. But he shook it off and tried again, only to find the man dying on the cross back in his scope sights.

Realizing all he had to do was get one weapon burst off and the "animals" at the feet of the hanging man would scurry for cover (those that were not killed instantly), so he raised his weapon one last time...

But this time his scope showed the cruxified man looking directly at him, sadly shaking his head, a half smile on blistered lips.

With all that superior fire power, armor, discipline, training and determination to put things right, the dying man with a look told him, "No".

So the modern soldier slung his weapon, marched down the hill, through the crowd (which ran for cover at the sight of this strange warrior), up to the tree where the man hung, and took up his post at its base, standing guard - while his Lord died.

I think that is humbling one's self before God. And I can find no hypocricy in obeying that kind of God.

v/r

Q

What so ever you do to the least of my brethren, you do to me...