Sufism

Jeannot · 07-11-2006, 09:17 PM

SUFI: The Immediacy of God

Karen Armstrong points out that the Kingdom of God "is not an experience for the elite or for monks only; the kingdom announced by Christ in the Gospels is a union with God that everybody can experience here and now, without having to wait until the next life." Mysticism is available to all – though some do seem to have a greater talent for it than others.

The Sufis, Islamic mystics, honor and exalt Jesus. Some go so far as to say "There is no God but al-Lah, and Jesus is his messenger." But basically, they have an appreciation for sincere approaches to God, no matter what the religious denomination.

Armstrong says "[The Sufis] also evolved the techniques and disciplines that have helped mystics all over the world to achieve an alternative state of consciousness. Sufis added the practices of fasting, night vigils and chanting the Divine Names as a mantra to the basic requirements of Muslim law." In this respect, they are not very different from Catholic, Orthodox, or Buddhist monks.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus say "The Father and I are one," reflecting the common experience of mystics with God. Similarly, the Sufi mystic Abu Yazid Bistami (d 874) felt that in becoming one with himself, he was simultaneously becoming one with God:

"I gazed upon al-Lah with the eye of truth and said to Him: 'Who is this?' He said 'This is neither I nor other than I. There is no God but I." Then he changed me out of my identity into his Selfhood.... Then I communed with Him with the tongue of His Face, saying, 'How fares it with me and with Thee?' He said, 'I am through Thee: there is no god but Thou."

There are perhaps as many experiences of oneness with God as there are mystics. Just as there are as many approaches to God as there are people. God is utter simplicity, and at the same time, infinite variety.

farhan · 07-12-2006, 09:38 PM

Quote:

The Sufis, Islamic mystics, honor and exalt Jesus. Some go so far as to say "There is no God but al-Lah, and Jesus is his messenger."

Well its a part of Islamic belief (untill unless Armstrong means something else)

Quote:

In this respect, they are not very different from Catholic, Orthodox, or Buddhist monks.

There is a little difference though . While the best thing that a person can do in both Buddhism & Christianity is to live a life of celibacy, leaving everything behind, Islam asks its followers to live among the people, & share their knowledge with people who dont know . A good example would be Ghazali & Abdul-Qadir Jilan . Both of them were scholors of Islam , & at the same time practicing Sufis , & they worked , & got married .

Quote:

"I gazed upon al-Lah with the eye of truth and said to Him: 'Who is this?' He said 'This is neither I nor other than I. There is no God but I." Then he changed me out of my identity into his Selfhood.... Then I communed with Him with the tongue of His Face, saying, 'How fares it with me and with Thee?' He said, 'I am through Thee: there is no god but Thou."

I think Armstrong answers this when she says

Al-Junayd was acutely aware of the dangers of mysticism. It would be easy for untrained people, who did not have the benefit of the advice of a pir and the rigorous Sufi training, to misunderstand the ecstasy of a mystic and get a very simplistic idea of what he meant when he said that
he was one with God.

The philosophy of Fanaa & Baqaa are actually based on ahadeeth like

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 509: [INDENT]
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Allah said, 'I will declare war against him who shows hostility to a pious worshipper of Mine. And the most beloved things with which My slave comes nearer to Me, is what I have enjoined upon him; and My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (praying or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) till I love him, so I become his sense of hearing with which he hears, and his sense of sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks; and if he asks Me, I will give him, and if he asks My protection (Refuge), I will protect him; (i.e. give him My Refuge) and I do not hesitate to do anything as I hesitate to take the soul of the believer, for he hates death, and I hate to disappoint him."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#008.076.509

And there are many other Quranic verses too , that ask humans to find God inside their hearts .

Quote:

There are perhaps as many experiences of oneness with God as there are mystics. Just as there are as many approaches to God as there are people. God is utter simplicity, and at the same time, infinite variety.

Well I absolutely agree . God is an infinitie unity . Humans usually experience a lot of difficulty in understanding both infinity & unity. Until unless they are away from their human selves . But when they translate their experience into words, it becomes too weird to understand .

Jeannot · 07-14-2006, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farhan

Well its a part of Islamic belief (untill unless Armstrong means something else)

There is a little difference though . While the best thing that a person can do in both Buddhism & Christianity is to live a life of celibacy, leaving everything behind, Islam asks its followers to live among the people, & share their knowledge with people who dont know . A good example would be Ghazali & Abdul-Qadir Jilan . Both of them were scholors of Islam , & at the same time practicing Sufis , & they worked , & got married .

I think Armstrong answers this when she says

Al-Junayd was acutely aware of the dangers of mysticism. It would be easy for untrained people, who did not have the benefit of the advice of a pir and the rigorous Sufi training, to misunderstand the ecstasy of a mystic and get a very simplistic idea of what he meant when he said that
he was one with God.

The philosophy of Fanaa & Baqaa are actually based on ahadeeth like

Volume 8, Book 76, Number 509: [indent]
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "Allah said, 'I will declare war against him who shows hostility to a pious worshipper of Mine. And the most beloved things with which My slave comes nearer to Me, is what I have enjoined upon him; and My slave keeps on coming closer to Me through performing Nawafil (praying or doing extra deeds besides what is obligatory) till I love him, so I become his sense of hearing with which he hears, and his sense of sight with which he sees, and his hand with which he grips, and his leg with which he walks; and if he asks Me, I will give him, and if he asks My protection (Refuge), I will protect him; (i.e. give him My Refuge) and I do not hesitate to do anything as I hesitate to take the soul of the believer, for he hates death, and I hate to disappoint him."

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#008.076.509

And there are many other Quranic verses too , that ask humans to find God inside their hearts .

Well I absolutely agree . God is an infinitie unity . Humans usually experience a lot of difficulty in understanding both infinity & unity. Until unless they are away from their human selves . But when they translate their experience into words, it becomes too weird to understand .

Well said, Farhan. Yes, there are experiences which it is impossible to put into words.

Khazina · 01-08-2007, 12:49 PM

intresting post mashallah ppl make out sufism is different set of muslims when they are not where do ppl get this idea from? i would love to know there goal and mission is the same they strive to be like our beloved rasool pbuh and submit themselves to Allah swt...is it because ppl dedicate there lives to islam and ppl get jealous or think this is extream ppl if u know please do enlighten me of this misunderstanding allhumduillah

Friend · 01-08-2007, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeannot

SUFI: The Immediacy of God

Karen Armstrong points out that the Kingdom of God "is not an experience for the elite or for monks only; the kingdom announced by Christ in the Gospels is a union with God that everybody can experience here and now, without having to wait until the next life." Mysticism is available to all – though some do seem to have a greater talent for it than others.

The Sufis, Islamic mystics, honor and exalt Jesus. Some go so far as to say "There is no God but al-Lah, and Jesus is his messenger." But basically, they have an appreciation for sincere approaches to God, no matter what the religious denomination.

Armstrong says "[The Sufis] also evolved the techniques and disciplines that have helped mystics all over the world to achieve an alternative state of consciousness. Sufis added the practices of fasting, night vigils and chanting the Divine Names as a mantra to the basic requirements of Muslim law." In this respect, they are not very different from Catholic, Orthodox, or Buddhist monks.

In the Gospel of John, Jesus say "The Father and I are one," reflecting the common experience of mystics with God. Similarly, the Sufi mystic Abu Yazid Bistami (d 874) felt that in becoming one with himself, he was simultaneously becoming one with God:

"I gazed upon al-Lah with the eye of truth and said to Him: 'Who is this?' He said 'This is neither I nor other than I. There is no God but I." Then he changed me out of my identity into his Selfhood.... Then I communed with Him with the tongue of His Face, saying, 'How fares it with me and with Thee?' He said, 'I am through Thee: there is no god but Thou."

There are perhaps as many experiences of oneness with God as there are mystics. Just as there are as many approaches to God as there are people. God is utter simplicity, and at the same time, infinite variety.

Translation problems I think

Although many Sufasim deviated from the right way of Islam.

hope allah guide us to the truth

Abubakar · 03-05-2007, 10:29 PM

At present there is a program called 'the retreat', about a Sufi Retreat and some Muslims and non-Muslims who attend it. Its on BBC2 at 2100 hours on Mondays.

Interesting to watch.

I would add I am not a Sufi and this program has not made it any more attractive to me.

Rayc · 03-29-2007, 12:17 PM

Yes, I watched the retreat and found it to be very interesting although I didn't agree with some of their methodolgy. The setting was truly amazing! I felt like booking a place

Snoopy · 04-01-2007, 03:10 PM

If knowledge does not liberate the self from the self then ignorance is better than such knowledge.

- Sana’I Diwan

Snoopy · 04-01-2007, 04:02 PM

Hi,

Why have Sufis been persecuted by "mainstream" Muslims? Are they considered heretical or what?

s.

bananabrain · 04-02-2007, 11:22 AM

some people think some of them are heretics. some of them have done some quite strange things over the years, too. then there's ibn hallaj (i think was his name) who was executed for repeatedly shouting "ana al-haq!" ("i am the Truth!) which, as you can understand, being a Divine Name, caused quite a bit of upset. you can see where some people would find them a bit much, although i personally love 'em - without sufis i wouldn't be nearly as religious as i am myself as a jew!

b'shalom

bananabrain

flowperson · 04-02-2007, 03:19 PM

I have found that Sufi beliefs and ritual also have a lot to do with Christian mysticism at the most basic levels. Sufism flourished in areas of the ancient middle East where Aramaic was the mother language. Does that surprise anyone ? It is also the place where Bahai has rooted itself.

flow....

wil · 04-02-2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flowperson

I have found that Sufi beliefs and ritual also have a lot to do with Christian mysticism at the most basic levels. Sufism flourished in areas of the ancient middle East where Aramaic was the mother language. Does that surprise anyone ? It is also the place where Bahai has rooted itself.

flow....

It is interesting to me how the mystical portions of so many religions seem to be more connected and accepted by each others thought than their own... did I express that right? I'm agreeing with Flow, the christian mystics, sufists, kabbalists...seem to often have these heretical overtones from the religion from which they sprouted...(or is it the religion that sprouted from them...)

flowperson · 04-02-2007, 03:48 PM

Hi wil...I have learned that beginnings and endings are one in the same...ever seen the artwork of M.C. Escher ? That concept should not be confused with the music of M.C. Rove however .

I was once dictated a short poem out of the blue...
"Subtle beginnings and quiet endings,
are the hallmarks of Creation."

Or one could call that "the still small voice" I suppose.

flow....

Snoopy · 04-02-2007, 05:25 PM

Hi,

Thanks for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bananabrain

some of them have done some quite strange things over the years, too.

such as...?

Quote:

although i personally love 'em - without sufis i wouldn't be nearly as religious as i am myself as a jew!

er, what do you mean please?!

Thanks again.

s.

Snoopy · 04-02-2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wil

It is interesting to me how the mystical portions of so many religions seem to be more connected and accepted by each others thought than their own... did I express that right? I'm agreeing with Flow, the christian mystics, sufists, kabbalists...seem to often have these heretical overtones from the religion from which they sprouted...(or is it the religion that sprouted from them...)

I’m agreeing with Flow and wil! Recent TV programmes on Christian and sufi retreats and a book looking at (most of) the major meditation traditions ( http://www.comparative-religion.com/...read-6741.html ) have demonstrated to me this over-riding commonality which can become lost when “it” gets dressed up into disparate religions with their unique terminologies. I’m amazed that this is what constitutes “heresy”, it seems to me to constitute the real purpose of religion, experiential contact with the super-mundane. The differences come from the putting of labels on the ineffable tin. But underneath the labels, there is only one tin.

s.