Temptations...

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Dream

Sin is a Christian word.

From the OT,

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

~Genesis 4:7

Sin can refer to ritual uncleanness, accidental mistakes, unwise actions, hateful activity and more, although its usually either talking about ritual uncleanness or wrongful activity.

I think it's about wrong attitude - namely, disrespect for the L-rd.

[nightsoul]

Thank you for the welcome, seattlegal. "Missing the mark" is the concept of sin i'm most familiar with, being jewish (post-denominational variety). i've been thinking a lot about it since we're coming out of the High Holy Days, all about atonement...or "at-one-ment" as our rabbi says.
i'm not so familiar with thinking about sin in terms of resisting temptation. For me it's more along the lines of: first, having the awareness of choice and not just reacting out of habit, and second, then choosing that which brings you closer to G-d.

[nightsoul]

Tao_Equus: Of course I do not view my 'sins' as sins but pleasure seeking.



i couldn't agree more, Tao. Only a G-d who delights in pleasure would create all those intricate nerve-endings.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by nightsoul

Tao_Equus: Of course I do not view my 'sins' as sins but pleasure seeking.



i couldn't agree more, Tao. Only a G-d who delights in pleasure would create all those intricate nerve-endings.

Hallelujah!!

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by nightsoul

"Missing the mark" is the concept of sin i'm most familiar with, being jewish (post-denominational variety).

Howdy Nightsoul,

Based on this, I gather there are other (Jewish) concepts?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by nightsoul

Thank you for the welcome, seattlegal. "Missing the mark" is the concept of sin i'm most familiar with, being jewish (post-denominational variety). i've been thinking a lot about it since we're coming out of the High Holy Days, all about atonement...or "at-one-ment" as our rabbi says.
i'm not so familiar with thinking about sin in terms of resisting temptation. For me it's more along the lines of: first, having the awareness of choice and not just reacting out of habit, and second, then choosing that which brings you closer to G-d.

Do you have a different term to distinguish (unknowingly) reacting out of established bad habits and knowingly and willfully establishing a new bad habit? (rebellion?)

[nightsoul]

Hi Netti-Netti and Seattlegal,


i guess the easiest place to start would be contrasting (some) Jewish ideas of sin with (some) Christian ones. Please understand that i'm going to be making generalizations for the purpose of discussion based on my understanding of the main themes of both religions and i apologize in advance for any unintentional offense.


Jewish thought, Adam and Eve notwithstanding, doesn't include a belief in “original sin,” and people are not thought to be “born sinners”. Rather, people are born with a “pure soul” and also with both an inclination toward “good,” and an inclination toward “evil.” (“Listen to the angels of your better nature,” our rabbi tells us.)


The Jewish idea of sin is also not based on the idea of punishment and reward, in this life or the afterlife. In contrast with modern formulations of “human rights,” Jews consider their relationship with G-d to be based in “human responsibilities.” We're expected to do our best with what we're given, to do “good” for the sake of doing good, and in fact there are some lines of thought that suggest that focusing on the idea of reward and punishment actually taints one's “good” with selfish motives.


i think there's a nice correlation here with your statement, Netti-Netti:

"I think it's about wrong attitude - namely, disrespect for the L-rd" because, Jewish thought recognizes both “crimes” (violations of human rights) and “sins,” (violations of “the obligation placed on us by virtue of the Divine command requiring us to behave in a way that befits the image of G-d in which we were made”). Parashat VaYelekh - Dr. Meir Seidler


To answer your question more directly:
“Chet” is the often-quoted archery term meaning “missing the mark:” one tries to do good, but falls short or goes a bit astray. Here the sin is not so much “doing evil” as “missing” the opportunity to “do good.”
“Aveira” means “crossing the line,” a fully-conscious choice, and considered more grievous.
“Avon,” or “abomination,” most heinous of all, would include idolatry and murder.
Hope this opens a fruitful dialog.

night

[nightsoul]

Hi Netti-Netti and Seattlegal,


i guess the easiest place to start would be contrasting (some) Jewish ideas of sin with (some) Christian ones. Please understand that i'm going to be making generalizations for the purpose of discussion based on my understanding of the main themes of both religions and i apologize in advance for any unintentional offense.


Jewish thought, Adam and Eve notwithstanding, doesn't include a belief in “original sin,” and people are not thought to be “born sinners”. Rather, people are born with a “pure soul” and also with both an inclination toward “good,” and an inclination toward “evil.” (“Listen to the angels of your better nature,” our rabbi tells us.)


The Jewish idea of sin is also not based on the idea of punishment and reward, in this life or the afterlife. In contrast with modern formulations of “human rights,” Jews consider their relationship with G-d to be based in “human responsibilities.” We're expected to do our best with what we're given, to do “good” for the sake of doing good, and in fact there are some lines of thought that suggest that focusing on the idea of reward and punishment actually taints one's “good” with selfish motives.

i think there's a nice correlation here with your statement, Netti-Netti: "...it's about wrong attitude - namely, disrespect for the L-rd" because, Jewish thought recognizes both “crimes” (violations of human rights) and “sins,” (violations of “the obligation placed on us by virtue of the Divine command requiring us to behave in a way that befits the image of G-d in which we were made”).


To answer your question more directly:
“Chet” is the often-quoted archery term meaning “missing the mark:” one tries to do good, but falls short or goes a bit astray. Here the sin is not so much “doing evil” as “missing” the opportunity to “do good.”
“Aveira” means “crossing the line,” a fully-conscious choice, and considered more grievous.
“Avon,” or “abomination,” most heinous of all, would include idolatry and murder.
Hope this opens a fruitful dialog.
night

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by nightsoul

Hi Netti-Netti and Seattlegal,


To answer your question more directly:
“Chet” is the often-quoted archery term meaning “missing the mark:” one tries to do good, but falls short or goes a bit astray. Here the sin is not so much “doing evil” as “missing” the opportunity to “do good.”
“Aveira” means “crossing the line,” a fully-conscious choice, and considered more grievous.
“Avon,” or “abomination,” most heinous of all, would include idolatry and murder.
Hope this opens a fruitful dialog.
night

Thank you, nightsoul. I started looking for Hebrew words for 'sin,' and also came acrossed these:

• pesha` (Strong's H6588)
  transgression, rebellion, tresspass, sin
• 'asham (Strong's H817) and 'ashmah (Strong's H819)
  guiltiness, guilt, offense, sin, wrong-doing, tresspass, fault
• shagag (Strong's H7683) and shagah (Strong's H7686) which can have many meanings:
  1) to go astray, stray, err
  a) (Qal)
  1) to err, stray
  2) to swerve, meander, reel, roll, be intoxicated, err (in drunkenness)
  3) to go astray (morally)
  4) to commit sin of ignorance or inadvertence, err (ignorantly)
  b) (Hiphil)
  1) to lead astray
  2) to lead astray, mislead (mentally)
  3) to lead astray (morally)
  and translated as: err 12, ravished 2, wander 3, deceiver 1, cause to go astray 1, sin through ignorance 2, go astray 2, deceived 2, flesh 1

I can see why you asked for sin to be defined.

[Dream]

Originally Posted by knightsoul

“Chet” is the often-quoted archery term meaning “missing the mark:” one tries to do good, but falls short or goes a bit astray. Here the sin is not so much “doing evil” as “missing” the opportunity to “do good.”
“Aveira” means “crossing the line,” a fully-conscious choice, and considered more grievous.
“Avon,” or “abomination,” most heinous of all, would include idolatry and murder.

Under these definitions 'fall short of the glory' probably refers to a chet, but you'd never know it from the Greek. Tracing these little-big factoids is like 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. I see a need for a reference tool.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by nightsoul

“Chet” is the often-quoted archery term meaning “missing the mark:” one tries to do good, but falls short or goes a bit astray.

What does it mean to "do good"?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

What does it mean to "do good"?

Let's look at the original words from the scripture you previously posted:

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

From the OT,

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

~Genesis 4:7

The word translated as sin in the verse is chatta'ah (Strong's H2403), which comes from the same root that chet' (Strong's H2399) does, chata' (Strong's H2398).

The word for the part highlighted in red above is yatab (Strong's H3190).
Here's the listed definitions:

1) to be good, be pleasing, be well, be glad

a) (Qal)

1) to be glad, be joyful
2) to be well placed
3) to be well for, be well with, go well with
4) to be pleasing, be pleasing to

b) (Hiphil)

1) to make glad, rejoice
2) to do good to, deal well with
3) to do well, do thoroughly
4) to make a thing good or right or beautiful
5) to do well, do right

-source-

The joyful aspect to the definition reminds me of our conversation on the Jealousy thread about mudita, or sympathetic joy, being an antidote for jealousy. (I think we even mentioned the story of Cain and Abel on that thread.)

I think it's about wrong attitude - namely, disrespect for the L-rd.

Indeed, it does seem to be about wrong attitude.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

The word for the part highlighted in red above is yatab (Strong's H3190).
Here's the listed definitions:

1) to be good, be pleasing, be well, be glad

a) (Qal)

1) to be glad, be joyful
2) to be well placed
3) to be well for, be well with, go well with
4) to be pleasing, be pleasing to

b) (Hiphil)

1) to make glad, rejoice
2) to do good to, deal well with
3) to do well, do thoroughly
4) to make a thing good or right or beautiful
5) to do well, do right

Based on the 155 occurences in the Bible, it seems like a concept of perfectability and well being is being suggested with the word yatab

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by nightsoul

....Jewish thought recognizes both “crimes” (violations of human rights) and “sins,” (violations of “the obligation placed on us by virtue of the Divine command requiring us to behave in a way that befits the image of G-d in which we were made”). Parashat VaYelekh - Dr. Meir Seidler

Interesting that so much discussion of "good" tends to focus on social good, Dr. Seidler being an example of that. I'm not saying it's unimportant, but I would say it has the potential to be an instance of putting the cart before the horse.

I believe real altruism and self-sacrifice are possibilities mainly for people who are not preoccupied with their own needs because they have learned how to be good to themselves and how to take care of themselves. Their self-acceptance frees them of dependencies and bondage to selfish motive. More here.....
Compassion toward self

[greymare]

Temptations eh? and how we resist them. Well, I think it depends on who you are and how you define temptation. You have those frivolous temptations, (wanting those new shoes, and knowing you will never go anywhere to wear them, but really considering buying them anyway.), or the more serious temptations, lusting after someone who isnt "yours" etc. (that kind of thing). Now, maybe Im way off the point here, but I think Alex wanted to know how we handle these things...............

Im tempted to do stuff all the time, ( the frivolous kind) generally I way up the pros and cons, and as long as I am not hurting anyone or I can afford it, I do it,... Hey, Im only human......But I do try to NOT do the bad things, the bad temptations, I hope Im on the right track......I suppose, its how each individual interprets a "temptation", and then what the resulting "cost" is........... thats my opinion.....