The Antichrist Will Easily Take The World

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Steve! Have we met before? Welcome to CR!

I sense some hostility in here, i think its getting pretty heated

Not on my part. Just strong opinion bourne out by a lot of deep thought and consideration, what some might even call meditation.

Those that know me here know when my feathers are ruffled. I am nowhere close to that.

I am hoping our friend can understand that his is not the only view. CR is for sharing views, not commandeering them.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Plaidback!

I cannot help but wonder why you would post two distinctly different quotes together? I do hope it is not an effort to distort what I have to say, that would not be a very nice thing to do.

The quote about not understanding is specifically tied to the last part of your post I quoted, and nothing else.

Originally Posted by Plaidback

Information, that we are capable to, either, receive, or, transmit,
can be either lie or truth. And there is nothing in between.

I disagree. The best way to hide a lie is to surround it with truth. It makes it easier to believe. So, there is whole truth, there is whole lie, and there are many shades in between, where little lies are buried within truth.

A discerning person, like a picky eater, picks out the lies and discards them. That includes faulty reasoning.

You see, only truth or lie and no in between is called "false dichotomy," either/or thinking. It is either my way, or the highway. This is not true, not for you and me or anyone else, here and now. This kind of intolerant thinking leads down the road to intolerance, prejudice, bigotry, hatred and even war. This is not the path Jesus taught. I choose not to walk this path. How about you?

As an Effect, caused by opposite understanding, argument have brought
picture of me, as someone who never heard of Satan. Which is not right.

Not by me. I have not at any time in this thread suggested anything of the sort. You have suggested, on more than one occasion, that there is no such thing as evil because God created everything. I quoted Isaiah to show that God created evil too. Perhaps evil has its place, its job to do, I cannot say. I do not pretend to know the mind of God. That does not make evil any less evil. I have not mentioned Satan by name in this thread, and certainly not in context with you.

All I am saying is that God created Everything. And everything that contradicts that truth is Lie.

I posted the quote from Isaiah to show I agree, I just do not agree with your interpretation of what that means. Evil does exist, as evil.

Because evil spelled backward is live means nothing of relevence. If it does, then perhaps it would be better to worship doG?

I do not expect you to agree with me. We can agree to disagree and still be friends. I also do not have to be talked down to, and listen to suggestion that I do not know truth, or that my way is somehow less than yours. I do not answer to you, I answer to God, and God only.

We can discuss these things politely and with tolerance for other views. Or we can become intolerant bigots. I am not calling you intolerant, but I do see you heading in that direction. I hope you will not choose that path. I have made my choice, long ago. What choice will you make?

[stevemb88]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Steve! Have we met before? Welcome to CR!


Not on my part. Just strong opinion bourne out by a lot of deep thought and consideration, what some might even call meditation.

Those that know me here know when my feathers are ruffled. I am nowhere close to that.

I am hoping our friend can understand that his is not the only view. CR is for sharing views, not commandeering them.

Well it just felt like some tension but I'm glad it isn't anything serious! And I know what you mean about our friend understanding that there are other opinions and beliefs and that we are not here to control his thinking. Well thanks for the welcome and have a wonderful rest of the week.

[Plaidback]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Plaidback!

I cannot help but wonder why you would post two distinctly different quotes together? I do hope it is not an effort to distort what I have to say, that would not be a very nice thing to do.

I was in a hurry, had to take care of my daughter, she is 3. Sorry .
The only reason why Isaiah 45:7 was quoted is, because God himself testified
to Isaiah that He created Evil itself. Not only Satan, most beautiful "Angel", turned "Rebel" who believed to be better than God, which have landed Him a Job as Commander in Chief of Earth, for 6000 years.
6000 years passed, and like it says in Rev. 20, the Dude ( because for me,
angels are actualy people, some did good, and some did not ) with the Key
( from a bunch, given to Him by Jesus in Matt.16:17-19 ), and heavy chain,
chained Satan down, and locked the Pit. So He couldn't decieve Nations, anymore, till thousand years are finished.
That is all I've said, and just like everything else I posted here, was just
what I feel about Life, that we share.
I've never wanted anyone to do anything, or to feel the way I feel.
It would be lovely If you point out my words that proove otherwise.

Originally Posted by juan23

The best way to hide a lie is to surround it with truth. It makes it easier to believe. So, there is whole truth, there is whole lie, and there are many shades in between, where little lies are buried within truth.

A discerning person, like a picky eater, picks out the lies and discards them. That includes faulty reasoning.

You see, only truth or lie and no in between is called "false dichotomy," either/or thinking. It is either my way, or the highway. This is not true, not for you and me or anyone else, here and now. This kind of intolerant thinking leads down the road to intolerance, prejudice, bigotry, hatred and even war. This is not the path Jesus taught. I choose not to walk this path. How about you?

There is no lie in God's Truth. He is Perfect, 100% truth, that created everything, even Illusion. For many people, who believe that 75% truth and
25% lies, are still truth, God is Illusion, and will remain Illusion.
When you talk about " little lies buried within truth ", it sound to me like
you talking about Chocolate chip cookie dough.
It would be nice if you can volunteer some examples of little lies in God's
truth.
I've said clearly that Everything is either truth or lie, which is truth itself.
Again you need to show Us, where is my " my way or highway" attitude.
Especialy after calling me Intolerant.
Jesus said, when he transformed Law into - Love, these are only commandements " Have one God, and love your neighbour, as you love yourself "
That One God, is Love and Truth, that created everything, which is truth.
If you believe there are Lies , you believe in more than One God.
It is not important why, and which Path are we walking, right now, Important is where, when, and how are we going to end up.
We both still have chances to see eachother.

Originally Posted by juan23

You have suggested, on more than one occasion, that there is no such thing as evil because God created everything. I quoted Isaiah to show that God created evil too. Perhaps evil has its place, its job to do, I cannot say. I do not pretend to know the mind of God. That does not make evil any less evil. I have not mentioned Satan by name in this thread, and certainly not in context with you.
I posted the quote from Isaiah to show I agree, I just do not agree with your interpretation of what that means. Evil does exist, as evil.

In sense that God, who is love,Perfect, and forever wanted from Us not to "eat" from tree of knowledge of good and evil, which is God's path, blessed are the Ones that can feel only Love, that is God.
It was no one elses but God's Path of Love, that drove Eve into Hell.
He created her like that.

I answer to God, and God only.
I hope you will not choose that path. I have made my choice, long ago. What choice will you make?

Can you explain, how do you answer to God ?
As I've said before, on Planet that I am from, God created everything, including path of my existence. Choices I've made were His choice, words that I speak are His words.
And there you are, Captain of your Ship, King of your Castle,
making Your choices Ballin' and Shot Calling, Player
Do you believe, that your interest and talent for poetry, was your choice 2 ?

much love

[Popeyesays]

I think that when most Christians worry about the anti-Christ they think that this is a single phenomena that occurs in the latter days. Why?

John himself writes that the anti-christ was in the world when he wrote Revelations.

The anti-Christ is the voice that says: God does not reveal Himself, and Christ was mistaken at best.

We have certainly heard that voice throughout time.

Revelations is a book of mataphoric language. To try to make it literal fact is fraught with danger.

Regards,
Scott

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I think that when most Christians worry about the anti-Christ they think that this is a single phenomena that occurs in the latter days. Why?

John himself writes that the anti-christ was in the world when he wrote Revelations.

The anti-Christ is the voice that says: God does not reveal Himself, and Christ was mistaken at best.

We have certainly heard that voice throughout time.

Revelations is a book of mataphoric language. To try to make it literal fact is fraught with danger.

Regards,
Scott

Hi Scott, welcome to CR!

Very succinct, and I agree.

peace,
lunamoth

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Plaidback!

Originally Posted by Plaidback

I was in a hurry, had to take care of my daughter, she is 3. Sorry .

Very well.

The only reason why Isaiah 45:7 was quoted is, because God himself testified to Isaiah that He created Evil itself.

Yes, but this contradicts you when you say things like: "Therefore 'evil' is Good, it must be, 'cause it's from God."

the Dude ( because for me, angels are actualy people, some did good, and some did not ) with the Key ( from a bunch, given to Him by Jesus in Matt.16:17-19 ), and heavy chain, chained Satan down, and locked the Pit. So He couldn't decieve Nations, anymore, till thousand years are finished.

I think you mean the archangel Michael, but Lucifer has not yet been chained. Perhaps you see this differently, but this is how I see this.

That is all I've said, and just like everything else I posted here, was just what I feel about Life, that we share.

Which is why I have not been overzealous in dealing with you. You have an interesting outlook, which you are free here to share. I do not agree with your view. It is my intent to allow you the opportunity to see and understand how to deal, politely, with people who do not share your view.

It would be lovely If you point out my words that proove otherwise.

How's this for starters:

-"Information, that we are capable to, either, receive, or, transmit,
can be either lie or truth. And there is nothing in between.

-When you manage to understand,( or what I like to refer as " feel " ) that infact God created Everything including " evil ", because we, people, live,
feel, and die one way or another, you might see dimension of destiny,

-Have you ever heard of concept called truth ?

-Have you ever heard concept of God ( one and only ) being alfa & omega, beginning and the end, creator of Everything

-It is all about His choice, which can not be ours. It's all about being chosen
or not, chosen by blood…If you do not feel what is truth or not, maybe one day you will, or, you never will.

-Which is proof of ( what you've turn upside down ) One being on
God's Team."

There is the implication here that you have and know truth, and nobody else does. What you have is your opinion. That may be strong opinion, it may come from a lot of deep insight or personal revelation, or a lot of study. But in the end it is your opinion, your interpretation of God's Word. There are as many interpretations as there are people who have read the Word for themselves.

There is no lie in God's Truth. He is Perfect, 100% truth, that created everything, even Illusion.

Agreed, up to the part about illusion. I think God has created the ability for us to be subject to illusion. Or maybe it is a design flaw, who knows?

If God is not a liar, and illusion is a lie, then God does not, as a rule, deceive us by illusion. There are exceptions...such as reprobate minds.

For many people, who believe that 75% truth and
25% lies, are still truth, God is Illusion, and will remain Illusion.

Perhaps. Yet, ignorance (the genuine kind of not knowing, of not being aware) provides innocence. God only holds us accountable for what we do know, not for what we do not know. Those that know less, are less accountable. To those that are given, more is required. So, if one were deceived by a path that is "only" 75% correct, God will only judge them for that 75% they know.

When you talk about " little lies buried within truth ", it sound to me like you talking about Chocolate chip cookie dough.

Interesting example. I think more in terms of the drop of poison in a glass of brandy. Arsenic and Old Lace.

It would be nice if you can volunteer some examples of little lies in God's truth.

God's truth is God's truth, there is no lie. However, humans being what they are, fully capable of deceiving and being deceived, evil being what it is with its intent and abilities, and the nature of human understanding in that we perceive by our own library of experiences, the lie is not within God's truth but in our personal interpretations and opinions of truth. This could take a thread to itself, so I can only hope my simple answer will suffice for now.

...after calling me Intolerant.

I specifically *did not* call you intolerant. My words were: "I am not calling you intolerant, but I do see you heading in that direction." If you must attribute things to me, do me the kindness and courtesy of getting it straight. Thanks.

As for examples, I think the list above is sufficient for now. So I stand by what I *did* say, I see you heading in the direction...

Jesus said, when he transformed Law into - Love, these are only commandements " Have one God, and love your neighbour, as you love yourself "
That One God, is Love and Truth, that created everything, which is truth.

See, this is a good example of selective perception. From memory, what Jesus said is "The first command is this; Love God with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength. And the second is like unto; Love your neighbor as yourself. (In these) are fulfilled the law and the prophets." Of course, it is easy enough to look this up, for the exercise in selective perception I will allow anyone else to quote verbatim and see which of us is closest. And then there is the little matter of interpretation. You have quoted the words, what do they mean to you? How do you apply them in your life?

If you believe there are Lies , you believe in more than One God.

I think the "little" lies are in our own minds, our selective interpretations. I call it "looking for loopholes" in order to justify our untoward lusts and selfish desires. This can be augmented from outside, the influence of others we hold in respect (preachers, teachers, parents, friends), and sometimes the little voice wispering in our ear from outside to be naughty, usually called "evil." But most often it is our choice (free-will) to do the things we want to do, and how to justify these things to ourselves and others.

It is not important why, and which Path are we walking, right now, Important is where, when, and how are we going to end up.
We both still have chances to see eachother.

So, I find agreement then with what I said earlier? "I do not expect you to agree with me. We can agree to disagree and still be friends."

It was no one elses but God's Path of Love, that drove Eve into Hell.
He created her like that.

Ummm, I am going to disagree here too. I see you are a strict predestination type of person. I'm a pretty well-balanced free-will type of person, with occasional predestination thrown in. Genuine love cannot be forced, it must be given freely. God doesn't want a bunch (more!) little automatons running around mouthing "I love you, God! I love you, God!" He wants sincere love given to Him. That requires free-will.

Not to mention, predestination implies a person cannot be saved. Either they are, or not, going to heaven. Their actions mean nothing. One predestined for heaven can "rape, pillage and plunder" and get away with it, it doesn't matter. One predestined for hell can act like a saint and it will not matter. I find this line of reasoning to be very judgemental, when applied by humans to humans. God is the final judge. In the meantime, I will conduct my life in a moral manner as I understand.

Can you explain, how do you answer to God ?

Quite frankly, that is between me and God. In all politeness, it is none of your business.

As I've said before, on Planet that I am from, God created everything, including path of my existence. Choices I've made were His choice, words that I speak are His words.
And there you are, Captain of your Ship, King of your Castle,
making Your choices Ballin' and Shot Calling, Player

And there you are, assuming you are somehow better than me...this is not polite and it is *very* judgemental. Just showing you once again.

I am the master of my fate, even though I answer to a Higher Master. I am the captain of my soul, even though I answer to my Superior Officer. It is my choice, to love and obey, or hate and refuse, or pick and choose and distort and justify. And teach rightly or wrongly. Just like it is for everyone else.

Do you believe, that your interest and talent for poetry, was your choice 2 ?

No. As I explained before, that is my gift *from* God. What I do with it, is my gift *to* God.

much love

Peace

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Popeye, and welcome to CR!

You have an interesting choice of screen name.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Revelations is a book of mataphoric language. To try to make it literal fact is fraught with danger.

I like your observations.

About Revelations though, my jury is still out and undecided. I have heard a great many interpretations. Most seem to me an attempt to justify the status quo, as though the promises can be avoided "if only we do this or that." For some reason, this interpretation does not sit well in my heart or spirit.

Paranoia? Perhaps.

I agree that much of the language is symbolic. I don't think it will be an actual dragon or some kind of huge lizard that is let loose on the world, for example. One that always intrigued me, from Rev. 9, are the locusts like battle horses with crowns of gold and faces of men, hair of women and teeth of lions, breastplates of iron and wings with the sound of many battle chariots running to battle, with tails of scorpions by which they are able to hurt men.

Are these helicopter pilots? What about the scorpion tails? How does one describe something like a helicopter to a people who were two thousand years away from such technology? And is a helicopter the correct interpretation of the symbol to begin with?

Overall though, I think Revelations is a preview of how our social / political / religious systems will culminate, a vision as it were of the natural end of the path humanity is on. Such is the nature of power. I cannot help but think there is an element of spirit here, of unseen powers and municipalities, that is not readily accounted for.

Literal? No. Prophetic? I think so. Avoidable? I don't know, but I do not think the warning would be necessary if it were avoidable.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Popeye, and welcome to CR!

You have an interesting choice of screen name.

I like your observations.

About Revelations though, my jury is still out and undecided. I have heard a great many interpretations. Most seem to me an attempt to justify the status quo, as though the promises can be avoided "if only we do this or that." For some reason, this interpretation does not sit well in my heart or spirit.

Paranoia? Perhaps.

I agree that much of the language is symbolic. I don't think it will be an actual dragon or some kind of huge lizard that is let loose on the world, for example. One that always intrigued me, from Rev. 9, are the locusts like battle horses with crowns of gold and faces of men, hair of women and teeth of lions, breastplates of iron and wings with the sound of many battle chariots running to battle, with tails of scorpions by which they are able to hurt men.

Are these helicopter pilots? What about the scorpion tails? How does one describe something like a helicopter to a people who were two thousand years away from such technology? And is a helicopter the correct interpretation of the symbol to begin with?

Overall though, I think Revelations is a preview of how our social / political / religious systems will culminate, a vision as it were of the natural end of the path humanity is on. Such is the nature of power. I cannot help but think there is an element of spirit here, of unseen powers and municipalities, that is not readily accounted for.

Literal? No. Prophetic? I think so. Avoidable? I don't know, but I do not think the warning would be necessary if it were avoidable.

--------------------
My last name is "Saylors", so as Popeye the Saylors Man it seemed useful.

I guess the fear factor for the Book of Revelations is based in the concept that the "end days" bring about an end to the world as we know it, and the passing away of the physical world. How could such a thing NOT be fraught with fear, suffering and death?

I do not believe that God intends this existence to end. Not only did God create the "multiverse" or "universe", His will sustains it from moment to moment. Moses came and Revealed God's will, this brought great turmoil to Egypt and the Hebrews, did it end Creation? No. Noah warned men of the flood, did it end Creation? No. Jesus came and revealed God's will, it caused huge turmoil in the Roman and Hebrew world. Did it end Creation? No. Muhammed's message - accept it or not - came and purports to be the Revelation of God's will. It caused great turmoil in the world, but it did not end Creation either.

All these are true in the physical sense. The world continued despite the turmoil, these revelations proved themselves or did not prove themselves to individuals, nations, cultures, but the physical world never missed a sunrise, nor did man pass from existence.

In a spiritual sense each Revelation from God brings the spiritual Creation to an end, and re-creates it in the twinkle of an eye.

We have two sets of senses to understand Creation, a physical set of senses and a spiritual set of senses. We are creatures of two visions, unique in that quality in all of Creation.

The Book of Revelations is full of spiritual truths in symbolic terms. The interpretations are many, but why should ONE interpretation be true and the others false? Rather we should synthesize these understandings, realizing that the truth is in amalgamating a spiritual understanding of spiritual metaphor.

I don't worry that the locust forecast helicoptors of war, the book was not intended to describe technology. I have seen the seven-headed dragon interpreted as the Seven Imams of Islam (ending with Husayn). This is a spiritual interpretation that I believe increases my understanding of the metaphor.

Jesus, Himself, said: "Let the dead bury the dead." He meant that the spiritually dead should be let alone, they cannot be awakened. He did not mean that the corpses would bury each other. Spiritual metaphor, rather than physical description.

Worship God because God is worthy of worship, and one shouldn't consume oneself with worry over one's physical existence. This body shuffles off with death, but my spirit goes on without my physical self. I will take nothing with me but the spiritual qualities and senses I have developed in this flesh, and the result of my personal choice to submit to God or not submit.

I'm a Baha`i, so I will post what the Bab has to say about this:"THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!
When the Apostle of God [Muhammad] appeared, He did not announce unto the unbelievers that the Resurrection had come, for they could not bear the news. That Day is indeed an infinitely mighty Day, for in it the Divine Tree proclaimeth from eternity unto eternity, 'Verily, I am God. No God is there but Me'. Yet those who are veiled believe 79 that He is one like unto them, and they refuse even to call Him a believer, although such a title in the realm of His heavenly Kingdom is conferred everlastingly upon the most insignificant follower of His previous Dispensation. Thus, had the people in the days of the Apostle of God regarded Him at least as a believer of their time how would they have debarred Him, for seven years while He was in the mountain, from access to His Holy House [Ka'bah]? Likewise in this Dispensation of the Point of the Bayan, if the people had not refused to concede the name believer unto Him, how could they have incarcerated Him on this mountain, without realizing that the quintessence of belief oweth its existence to a word from Him? Their hearts are deprived of the power of true insight, and thus they cannot see, while those endowed with the eyes of the spirit circle like moths round the Light of Truth until they are consumed. It is for this reason that the Day of Resurrection is said to be the greatest of all days, yet it is like unto any other day." VIII, 9.
"THERE is no paradise, in the estimation of the believers in the Divine Unity, more exalted than to obey God's commandments, and there is no fire in the eyes of those who have known God and His signs, fiercer than to transgress His laws and to oppress another soul, even to the extent of a mustard seed. On the Day of Resurrection God will, in truth, judge all men, and we all verily plead for His grace." V, 19. 80
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 78)

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Popeye!

I am not familiar with Bahai scripture, so I am not sure what to say beyond thank you.

I guess the fear factor for the Book of Revelations is based in the concept that the "end days" bring about an end to the world as we know it, and the passing away of the physical world. How could such a thing NOT be fraught with fear, suffering and death?

Among Christians, this is probably a fairly common understanding of the issue. Of course, a common teaching at least in America is that Christians will not be around to have to deal with any of this. It turns them into ostriches, burying their heads so as not to have to look at the matter.

Myself, I see the "end times" of Revelation as the gateway into the millenial rule of Christ, where all overcomers (in my understanding, of all faiths) will be brought together and taught correctly. Evil will be held at bay until the end. This is the time promised in Isaiah, when the lion lies with the lamb, and little children play with serpents, and there is no more war. This I do not see as metaphor, but as direct promise. In that you are correct, the sun will rise that day as any other (depending what is meant by the metaphors in Revelation concerning the darkening of the sun and the parting of the atmosphere). I see the events of Revelation as a necessary end to this era in order to usher in the next. Whether the next era is for humans in a physical body, or a spiritual one, I hold on by faith to the promise that it will come to pass.

My two cents.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards, Popeye!

I am not familiar with Bahai scripture, so I am not sure what to say beyond thank you.


SNIP
Myself, I see the "end times" of Revelation as the gateway into the millenial rule of Christ, where all overcomers (in my understanding, of all faiths) will be brought together and taught correctly. Evil will be held at bay until the end. This is the time promised in Isaiah, when the lion lies with the lamb, and little children play with serpents, and there is no more war. This I do not see as metaphor, but as direct promise. In that you are correct, the sun will rise that day as any other (depending what is meant by the metaphors in Revelation concerning the darkening of the sun and the parting of the atmosphere). I see the events of Revelation as a necessary end to this era in order to usher in the next. Whether the next era is for humans in a physical body, or a spiritual one, I hold on by faith to the promise that it will come to pass.

My two cents.

The whole Book of Revelations is written to the point that those who "endure to the end" will be upheld.

So I agree.

I believe that the darkening of the sun is metaphoric - in that in the time before a New Revelation the word of God is always obscured by misunderstandings and the clamoring of those who would guide people astray.
So the Sunof the Word of God will be darkened.

Actually, I believe that the coming of God's Kingdom is something we are required to accomplish for ourselves. We need to pick up a hammer and a saw to build it, not wait for it to be dropped into our laps.

Regards,
Scott

[BlaznFattyz]

interesting metaphor, or not...
it could also be a catastrophic event from war that causes so much smoke and pollution that the sun is darkened out. which we have seen so far on small scales.

or it could mean a supernatural event. the bible suggests that there will be signs in the heavens at end times, and has shown signs before, like jesus' birth.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

interesting metaphor, or not...
it could also be a catastrophic event from war that causes so much smoke and pollution that the sun is darkened out. which we have seen so far on small scales.

or it could mean a supernatural event. the bible suggests that there will be signs in the heavens at end times, and has shown signs before, like jesus' birth.

The metaphor works fo r me. The sun is the knowledge of the will of God and it is obscured so man receives no light.The moon is the knowledge of God reflected by the religious leaders of the day, who have lost their way and give no guidance.

I don't think the Nativity Star was a supernatural event. It was probably a comet. And I believe events in the sky are part of the preparation for a new advent.

Regards,
Scott

[stevemb88]

The metaphor works fo r me. The sun is the knowledge of the will of God and it is obscured so man receives no light.The moon is the knowledge of God reflected by the religious leaders of the day, who have lost their way and give no guidance.

I don't think the Nativity Star was a supernatural event. It was probably a comet. And I believe events in the sky are part of the preparation for a new advent.

Regards,
Scott

I really liked that metaphor , but how is the sun obscured?

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by stevemb88

I really liked that metaphor , but how is the sun obscured?

In the early days and centuries of a Faith the people do the best they can to cling to the words of the Messenger. As time passes they begin to lose their way in "clouds" of dogma and doctrine that they practices because their ancestors and their priests say they should. In time they lose the intent behind the practice and begin to worship the practice and not God. I know I do not make myself perfectly clear. These clouds are what darken the sun. Clouds of confusion, dogma, indecision, ignorance . . .

Baha`i scripture deals more deftly than I am able to do"


-------------------
As clouds prevent the eyes of men from viewing the phenomenal sun, so the above conditions hinder the people from apprehending that Ideal Sun. It is mentioned in the Book and attributed to the tongue of the unbelievers thus - "And they say what kind of a Messenger is this? he eateth food and walketh in the streets (as we do); unless an angel be sent down to him and become a (fellow-) preacher with him." (K.S. 25) As those Temples of Holiness were subject to outward indigence and adversity and also to natural and bodily necessities, such as hunger, diseases and incidental happenings, the people would become bewildered in saharas of doubt and suspicion and in deserts of imagination and perplexity, (wondering) how could one come from God, claim predominance over all in the earth and ascribe to Himself the motive of the creation of beings - as He hath said, - "Were it not for thee, I would not have created the firmaments," - and yet be afflicted by such trifling matters. For it is heard how every Prophet and His companions suffered adversities such as indigence, diseases and contempt; how the heads of their followers were sent as presents in the cities; how they were prevented from that whereunto they were commanded, and each of them suffered by the hand of the enemies of religion, to such an extent that the latter inflicted upon them whatever they desired.
It is evident that the changes and alterations effected during every Manifestation are the dark cloud which prevents the eye of the servants' knowledge from knowing that Divine Sun which shines forth from the Day-spring of Deity. When the servants who have continued for years to imitate the religion of their ancestors and who have been brought up in its established ceremonies and customs, suddenly find one who hath been among them, their equal in all the human limitations, abolishing those religious ordinances in which they have been trained for successive centuries and the contradictor and denier of which they consider as infidel, impious and profligate - such circumstances naturally constitute a veil and cloud for those whose hearts have not tasted the Salsabile of severance nor drunk from the Kawther of knowledge. As soon as they hear these things, they become so veiled from the comprehension of that Sun, that they declare Him an infidel and condemn Him to death, without appeal. This hath been witnessed since the earliest centuries and is also seen in this time. Therefore an effort should be made that through the invisible 26 assistance we may not be prevented by similar dark veils and the clouds of divine tests from beholding that shining Beauty; that we may know Him in Himself, and if we seek any proof, we may attain to the fountain of the infinite bounty before which all bounties are accounted as nothing; and not to oppose Him every day by an imagination nor by clinging to a fancy. As to His saying: "And will send His angels, etc.": These "angels" are souls who through spiritual power have burned human qualities by the fire of divine love and become characterized with the attributes of the exalted ones and cherubim
(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 26)
-------------------
Herein He speaks of the time of Christ and the opposition of the priests of the time. It is true as well for the time of Moses, for the time of Muhammed, for the time of Baha`u'llah and those other Perfect Mirrors.

Regards,
Scott