The art of happiness

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

"True compassion is not just an emotional response, but a firm commitment based on reason." ~Dalai Lama

Thank you for the great quotes, SG. Sometimes I get the impression that you have all the world's wisdom at your fingertips. Maybe you do!

3. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. "He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

Great passage. Vindictiveness is an expression of attachment to self, a twisted egoistic version of justice. I'm not so sure it can be eliminated entirely, but I believe the quality of justice can be improved by wedding it to compassion and forgiveness.

I had another quick thought in the context of what we were discussing before....In Buddhism, compassion is serious business because it arises from an awareness of the problem of suffering, which relates to the fact that the world of forms is temporary. This understanding of the problem of evil is in fact the starting point of Buddhism.

One important difference between Buddhism and Christianity is that in Buddhism the problem of evil appears as universal and ever-present rather. In Christianity, it appears as a property of individual action that is out of line with G-d's will - i.e., the action of somebody who is either not paying attention to the L-rd's commandments or, for whatever reason, not keeping the commandments. I think it's called sin or something like that.

In Buddhism the problem of evil relates to suffering, which in turn reflects ignorance and attachment (desires and aversions) in a world the very nature of which does not lend itself to any kind of lasting happiness. It seems to me that in Buddhism virtue is a byproduct of a change of heart that results from awakening and insight into the nature of things, whereas in Christianity is follows from repentance, which is principally an awareness of a moral failure which has a karmic taint to it, but it gets wiped away pretty much instantly by Grace. Some people see that as getting off easy, and I can see why.


Buddhism is form of personal discipline as well as a worldview that informs the discipline. A continuous awareness of the problem of evil and its ramifications provides a basis for ongoing practice:

It is beneficial to be aware that you will die. Why? If you are not aware of death, you will not be mindful of your practice, but will just spend your life meaninglessly, not examining what sorts of attitudes and actions perpetuate suffering and which ones bring about happiness.

If you are not mindful that you might die soon, you will fall under the sway of a false sense of permanence "I'll die later on, later on."

DailyOM - Advice on Dying by Dalai Lama

Suffering is the focus of Buddhist doctrine as well as the focus of practice. The Buddhist literature includes numerous such mediations on impermanence like the one from the Dalai Lama. These meditations keep you alert to the nature of existence. In Peter Morrell's words, "The underlying purpose of this practice is to constantly keep in mind the basic unattractiveness of the world, its emptiness and unsatisfying nature, to realize continuously the fundamental impermanence of all forms."

It is helpful to accentuate the positive. This is partly how we remain aware of the blessings. Why is this important? The attitude of gratitude protects us from misguided efforts to substitute the fruits of our selfish actions for those blessings, which will only magnify the manic-depressive cycle of expecting rewards for our selfish actions only to be disappointed all over again and have our shame and despair increased.

The analysis and removal of defilements (attachment and karmic entanglements) are part and parcel of the process by which the attitude of gratitude gains a sure footing. Self-centered emotions like worry, self-consciousness, disappointment and anger can be to a large extent replaced by wholesome emotions.

Like compassion, we see the attitude of gratitude as a fortuitous result of recognizing that things for what they are: temporary. Gratitude means cherishing while we can. Here the Dalai Lama reminds us again:

Everyday, think as you wake up, today I am fortunate to be alive, I have a precious human life, I am not going to waste it. I am going to use all my energies to develop myself, to expand my heart out to others; to achieve enlightenment for the benefit of all beings. I am going to have kind thoughts towards others, I am not going to get angry or think badly about others. I am going to benefit others as much as I can.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

One important difference between Buddhism and Christianity is that in Buddhism the problem of evil appears as universal and ever-present rather. In Christianity, it appears as a property of individual action that is out of line with G-d's will - i.e., the action of somebody who is either not paying attention to the L-rd's commandments or, for whatever reason, not keeping the commandments. I think it's called sin or something like that.

In Buddhism the problem of evil relates to suffering, which in turn reflects ignorance and attachment (desires and aversions) in a world the very nature of which does not lend itself to any kind of lasting happiness.

Partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

It seems to me that in Buddhism virtue is a byproduct of a change of heart that results from awakening and insight into the nature of things, whereas in Christianity is follows from repentance, which is principally an awareness of a moral failure which has a karmic taint to it, but it gets wiped away pretty much instantly by Grace. Some people see that as getting off easy, and I can see why.

Match the colors:

Matt 5:7-8
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.

The Noble Eightfold Path--Chapter III
Right Intention
(Samma Sankappa)
The Buddha explains right intention as threefold: the intention of renunciation, the intention of good will, and the intention of harmlessness.14 The three are opposed to three parallel kinds of wrong intention: intention governed by desire, intention governed by ill will, and intention governed by harmfulness.15 Each kind of right intention counters the corresponding kind of wrong intention. The intention of renunciation counters the intention of desire, the intention of good will counters the intention of ill will, and the intention of harmlessness counters the intention of harmfulness.

Purifying the heart is very much a part of Christianity, and repentence/renunciation is very much a part of Buddhism.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Partaking of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?

Would like to get back to you on that.

Purifying the heart is very much a part of Christianity, and repentence/renunciation is very much a part of Buddhism.

You're going somewheres with this....

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Ciel

You might call it,"The art of the post"

Hi Ciel,

I wish I were a poet. Some other lifetime?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

You're going somewheres with this....

Just an observation.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Ahanu

I can recall people asking me personal questions in a face-to-face conversation, and if it involves some type of mental pain, then I will quickly ignore, or avoid, truly talking about whatever was just asked. It is like I ignore the pain that is there.

Maybe to avoid your own pain?

I fail to respond to it. I know for a fact that people can feel my apathy. Some of the Dalai Lama's advice for this is to "reflect on how you feel when someone is kind to you."

Good advice, but remember - receiving kindness is very different from giving.

Also, it causes me to think more deeply about how the other person feels in order for me to build a deeper connection with others. I think this will help in not allowing me to make others into what I want them to be.

Yes, good empathy.

Here are some steps I have in my notes for overcoming these negative mindstates.

1. Learning
2. Developing conviction, or a sense of urgency
3. Determination to change
4. Action

That covers it.

According to the Gita, Bhakti is te highest form of religious devotion. However, the commiment to Good and Loving Kindness is evident in most every world religion. Sometimes it is discussed in terms of the Spiritual Unity of human-divine and human-human.

According to the Belief.Net test I took last week, I'm 100% Sikh. That was news to me since I know next to nothing about the religion or its practitioners.

Anyhoo, I've been looking into their literature and discovered the Sukhmani, some of which seemed relevant to what you had mentioned:


Some of the verses are stated in a fairly traditional negative reinforcement style:

Without the Fear of God, all that is fashioned is false.

Afraid of fear, and living in fear, the mind is held in tumult.

Be afraid, if you have any fear, other than the Fear of God.

If God, the Destroyer of fear, does not dwell within your mind,

you shall spend countless incarnations in fear and dread.

On the more positive side, there is a "state of fearless dignity" that becomes available through devotion:

One who is attuned to the Lord, is free of all anxieties.

In His Sanctuary, there is no fear or sorrow.

Only the Lord's servants are free of fear.

Those who remain immersed in the Fear of God become fearless.

The fire of fear within the body is burnt away by the Fear of God.

My fear was removed, when I saw that He is pervading everywhere.

Other fears are forgotten, and they are absorbed into the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

In the Society of the Saints, He dwells in the mind; doubt, emotional attachment and fear are vanquished

Raag Gauree

I think a devotional discipline will help both insight and application. You have a working plan of action that can be supported by a devotional aspect that includes some regular study, meditation, and remembrance.

[Netti-Netti]

...repentence/renunciation is very much a part of Buddhism

But where is the forgiveness part?
There is no G-d to do the forgiving.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

But where is the forgiveness part?
There is no G-d to do the forgiving.

Here's a different translation of Dhammapad 1:1-5

1. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage.

2. All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him.

3. 'He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who harbour such thoughts hatred will never cease.

4. 'He abused me, he beat me, he defeated me, he robbed me,'--in those who do not harbour such thoughts hatred will cease.

5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.

It would seem that one's happiness is dependent upon one's ability to forgive and love, as noted verses 2-5 above.

There are parallels to this in Christianity, as well:

Matt 6:14-15
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

While Buddhism says that the precise outworking of karma is not something that one can conjecture about without being plagued by madness and vexation (see Acintita Sutta,) Christianity recognizes that this can be overcome through faith. Compare Luke 7:36-50 especially verses 47 & 50

47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.”
<...>
50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

The woman was forgiven much because she loved much. (Compare to Dhammapada 1:5 above that says that hate ceases by love.)

{Does faith count as conjecture? How would that fit in with Dhammapada 1 & 2?}

[Netti-Netti]

I think it is important for us to exercise forgiveness and I expect we would see convergence on this among various religious traditions. For example, from the Sikh sacred text, the Granth: "Practice forgiveness is the true fast, good conduct and contentment."

Originally Posted by seattlegal

It would seem that one's happiness is dependent upon one's ability to forgive and love, as noted verses 2-5 above.

Yes, Buddhism is very much concerned with the individual's state of mind. For me to forgive would be a form of loving kindness and would lend itself to a wholesome state. This emphasis on state of mind seem quite different from the Ultimate Blessing of Salvation for which the Christian is dependent on G-d for G-d's forgiveness.

Buddhism says that the precise outworking of karma is not something that one can conjecture about without being plagued by madness and vexation

To me that means it's not clear whether acts of forgiveness can remove Karma or change the balance of positive/negative Karma.

In the Mahayana, release is equated with "the exhaustion if error," which in turn leads to the end of mistaken action. It seems the emphasis is on not creating more Karma rather than on getting rid of old Karma. Also, this process does not seem to specifically involve forgiveness. It has more to do with gaining the knowledge by which attachment, craving and clinging are overcome.

It seems like we should be able to see a way to find some overlap between Buddhism and Christianity on the subject of forgiveness. But since Buddhism does not have a Supreme Merciful Deity who does the forgiving, that is probably not likely. Me forgiving myself or others is very different from G-d granting salvation by His forgiveness and by the Atonement through Jesus Christ.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

I think it is important for us to exercise forgiveness and I expect we would see convergence on this among various religious traditions. For example, from the Sikh sacred text, the Granth: "Practice forgiveness is the true fast, good conduct and contentment."

Yes, Buddhism is very much concerned with the individual's state of mind. Forgiving would be a for of loving kindness and would lend itself to a wholesome state. This emphasis on state of mind seem quite different from the Ultimate Blessing of Salvation for which the Christian is dependent on G-d for G-d's forgiveness.

To me that means it's not clear whether acts of forgiveness can remove Karma or change the balance of positive/negative Karma.

In the Mahayana, release is equated with "the exhaustion if error," which in turn leads to the end of mistaken action. It seems the emphasis is on not creating more Karma rather than on getting rid of old Karma. Also, this process does not seem to specifically involve forgiveness. It has more to do with gaining the knowledge by which attachment, craving and clinging are overcome.

It seems like we should be able to see a way to find some overlap between Buddhism and Christianity on the subject of forgiveness. But since Buddhism does not have a Supreme Merciful Deity who does the forgiving, that is probably not likely. Me forgiving myself or others is very different from G-d granting salvation by His forgiveness and by the Atonement through Jesus Christ.

This relates back to this quote from the Dalai Lama:

"True compassion is not just an emotional response, but a firm commitment based on reason." ~Dalai Lama

The parallels between Christianity and Buddhism helps to show how love, compassion and forgiveness expressed in Christianity through faith can be backed up by the reason expressed in Buddhism.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

how love, compassion and forgiveness expressed in Christianity through faith can be backed up by the reason expressed in Buddhism.

You mean Reason is nonoperative in Christianity and Christians must look to Buddhism to make up for what's missing from Christianity?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

You mean Reason is nonoperative in Christianity and Christians must look to Buddhism to make up for what's missing from Christianity?

Not at all. I would say that having the same principles reaffirmed from a different perspective has increased my appreciation for both traditions.

[Netti-Netti]

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I'm having trouble reconciling this to the notion of Grace being independent of an individual's actions. It seems to be making G-d's forgiveness contingent on us being forgiving towards each other. It amounts to "you better be forgiving or else you won't get forgiven."

That's coercive. It also makes being forgiving toward others a way to manipulate G-d.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I have trouble reconciling this to the notion of Grace being independent of an individual's actions. It seems to be making G-d's forgiveness contingent on us being forgiving towards each other. It amounts to "you better be forgiving or else you won't get forgiven." That's coercive. It also makes being forgiving toward others a way to manipulate G-d. Sorry, don't care for it.

God is kind to the unthankful and evil, so how would that be manipulating God? (See Luke 6:27-36)

If you receive God's kindness and grace, but you are filled with hate, will you be happy? (Dhammapada 1:1-5)

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

God is kind to the unthankful and evil, so how would that be manipulating God? (See Luke 6:27-36)

Looks to be a contradiction ... unless therer are some unstated terms for G-d to be kind toward the unthankful and evil. Btw, do we have to bring in Luke to explain Matthew?

Anyhoo, yes G-d makes the sun shine on evil and good, and I have no doubt that G-d is merciful even toward those who are unthankful and evil. What's missing here is a context that sheds some light on applicable terms and conditions.

G-d extends His mercy to all . . . IF they observe certain conditions. For one thing, G-d cannot forgive a person who won't accept forgiveness. Based on Luke 6:37 and Matthew 6:14-15, it seems there are other terms and conditions.

The passage from Matthew clearly says: don't expect G-d to forgive you unless you are forgiving others. Those are the terms of an agreement. Luke restates the same terms as those we see in Matthew 6:14-15 in a more condensed way, with a slight change in the wording: "Forgive, and you will be forgiven." ~Luke 6:37

Being forgiven is said to be predicated on forgiving. If I accept the terms of this arrangement, it positions me as someone who recognizes G-d's forgiveness as being contingent on my action. In other words, it's entering into agreement that makes G-d's favorable action toward me dependent on my actions. In that sense, it is manipulative.

Indeed, how's it different from making sacrifices a la the Old Testament, sacrifices that were clearly manipulative attempts to placate or "buy off" a wrathful G-d?

And how far removed is it from various kinds of sorcery that are intended to appeal to certain deities to get them to grant certain favors?

To my way of thinking, to make sacrifices to G-d for anything is tantamount to trying to manipulate Him. Likewise, to engage in any form of virtuous action in the hope of increasing my chances of salvation is to try to manipulate Him. To entreaty G-d for anything is tantamount to trying to manipulate Him. This is contrary to the New Testament G-d who loves us unconditionally.

If all we have to do is accept His forgiveness, then there's no point in doing tricks for G-d to get Him to be forthcoming with that which, by definition is always available - Grace. Even if the tricks are exceptually impressive and virtuous, it makes no difference. G-d loves you regardless. The issue becomes one of empowerment.

If we truly accept God's love, why do we continue to act as though we haven't really received it? My answer: less-than-ideal circumstances and lack of faith.

The common sense solution is to find new circumstances that support actions we can sanctify wholeheartedly and feel really good about and which allow us to experience G-d's love more directly and enable us to become better vehicles for infusing this world with G-d's love. I know, easier said than done. It takes a lot of courage, which we would have available to us if we truly had faith.