The Bab

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

One example I can give you right away is the book of Sahifae Adaliyah wherein on page 27, he outlines the belief of Imamate and names the 12 Imams in sequence and says that "Al Qaem Mohammed Ibnil Hasan Sahebazaman" is the 12th Imam.

Dennis McEoin, Abbas Amanat seem to think that this book is indeed that of the Bab. It is written in 1846 after Bab's return from Mecca.

is this book acceptable to the Bahais?

Regards

Dennis McEoin's opinion is his own, Imran. The fact remains that many of the so-called writings of the Bab have no provenance as such. Sahifae Adaliyah is one of those writings with no guarantee that it has not been significantly changed by people with no concern for the truth.

Regards,
Scott

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Everything has been explained by Allah and communicated through the Holy Prophet and the Imams. There is no scope for personal judgement at all in Islam.

Except, of course, when you want to trumpet human-originated ideas like the claim that Islam prohibits music when the Qu'ran says no such thing! Once again, mere human traditions don't qualify as God's Word.

And indeed, in the Baha'i Writings God has made clear the high and very spiritual station that music can and should occupy--the exact opposite of what these so-called "Islamic traditions" say!

Originally Posted by Imran

No person can be forced to accept Islam against his will.

EXCEPT, of course, if that person is Baha'i, in which case you apparently don't object to his or her being threatened and executed for refusing to convert to Islam, as your own refusal to condemn this has made very clear! :-(

You will forgive us, I trust, if we don't find your picture of Islam the least bit attractive. Thank God its reality is infinitely more wonderful than the shoddy and distorted image you have presented here!

Peace,

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

One example I can give you right away is the book of Sahifae Adaliyah wherein on page 27, he outlines the belief of Imamate and names the 12 Imams in sequence and says that "Al Qaem Mohammed Ibnil Hasan Sahebazaman" is the 12th Imam.

Dennis McEoin, Abbas Amanat seem to think that this book is indeed that of the Bab. It is written in 1846 after Bab's return from Mecca.

is this book acceptable to the Bahais?

Regards

Let's think this through, Imran.












By this list the 12th Imam is referred to as the Mahdi, right?
By His return from Mecca, the Bab was claiming to BE the return of the 12th Imam--not the return of the body of Muhammad ibn Hassan, but the return in spirit--SO, if the Bab claims that ibn Hasan is the Mahdi then the Bab is also claiming to be the Mahdi returned.

To my understanding Muhammad ibn Hasan was not given the title of Mahdi until after his occultation, and he was given the title because of his occultation and promised return.

The Bab was that return.

Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

Imran,

I would like to suggest something to you that you obviously don't understand. The Baha'is are not pernicious, something that you would be familiar with because you are surrounded by pernicious people. They are a loving, supporting culture, dedicated to the worshipping of God/Allah in their very life and daily decisions.

Baha'is do not have an agenda. The Baha'is simply are following the Truths of God as given us by His most recent Manifestation, Baha'u'llah. Again, I would suggest, you are used to dealing with people with an agenda and so are always looking for the hidden meanings and motivations. It is why we answer questions instead of proselytizing.

The Baha'is are a vast and diverse network found throughout the world in all cultures and countries. They are not a populace of sheep, following the whims or translations of the clergy. Each one has and continues to Investigate individually, looking for the Truths of God/Allah, and, amazingly, coming to the same conclusions. Well, not so amazing, because we are told if we search with our heart, we will recognize the "Spirit of God/Allah". If we search with an agenda or a preconceived notion, then our logical and rational mind, God/Allah gave us, will be clouded. Many of these Baha'is are scholars, involved in academia in many different studies. Many of us are only lowly citizens serving God/Allah. All have come to the same message through investigation, prayer and love of God/Allah.

The Baha'is wish no harm to anybody. No one. Not even those that are causing such pain and suffering to Baha'is in Iran, that only those familiar with their plight could imagine. People like you and I. We both know what is being done to these loving people. We both know that without the dogmatic thoughts of man, these acts could not be justified. Surely, not by any of the writings of the Great Manifestations. Again, you may find this confusing, because you and yours do wish harm on anybody that wouldn't accept your brand of worship, as you have confessed to in this forum. You even have a derogatory name for those that don't think/believe as you do.

If it seems that some of your ideas, that took you two days to research and to write about, were dismissed in a short time, it is because, these hackneyed, trite expressions of discord are not new. We have heard them so many times before. They really have little meaning to us in the Realm of God/Allah. If it seems some of us are not as polite as you or as you would expect in your style of society, forgive us. Many of us have not bothered to acquire a "learned politeness", and sometimes we react to things that hurt us dearly, such as the atrocities that are being laid upon the heads of my Baha'i brothers and sisters in Iran and other Mid-eastern countries.

The Baha'is will have dialogue with you forever. They will pray for your understanding of the Righteousness of Baha'u'llah and the power of His world changing Message. They will not shy away from your accusations, nor will they waver in their "discovered" Truths of God/Allah. We can only hope that, some day, you will see at least a sliver of light shining from the works of Baha'u'llah.

Mick

[arthra]

My own view on this is that Imran has his own orientation which is decidedly anti-Baha'i and his posts reflect that..

I accept that. He also occasionally cites some Babi sources but these are not directly binding on Baha'is and have not been translated and readily available to most of us. The Selections from the Writings of the Bab is currently available to us and represents a volume that is roughly the size of the New Testament or the Qur'an and while selective it is still I think very important.. There will be more authenticated translations in the future.. The Writings of the Bab are viewed by us as revealed.

As to the Hadiths of the Imams, Baha'is I think are interested in them but they are not binding on us either as they are for Shiahs... We Baha'is believe there prophetic and inspired visions found in many works.

But to argue about religion here is like a corrosive and detracts I think from the purpose of the Forum...

A better arrangement for Imran is I believe for him as a Muslim is the Muslim Forum and/or comparative religion where he can discuss some of his points.

- Art

[Popeyesays]

I would not suggest the Muslim forum, because the rules of the board say one cannot use one's own protected forum to attack other faiths.

The comparative religion board would be best. Imran does not realize that this particular board (all of its topic areas) is not really 'debate' oriented. Imran does not seem to be very effective unless his forum is protected, that's why he keeps referring people to his website rather than face the issues here or in some other neutral forum.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Greetings.
Except, of course, when you want to trumpet human-originated ideas like the claim that Islam prohibits music when the Qu'ran says no such thing! Once again, mere human traditions don't qualify as God's Word.

And indeed, in the Baha'i Writings God has made clear the high and very spiritual station that music can and should occupy--the exact opposite of what these so-called "Islamic traditions" say!

EXCEPT, of course, if that person is Baha'i, in which case you apparently don't object to his or her being threatened and executed for refusing to convert to Islam, as your own refusal to condemn this has made very clear! :-(

You will forgive us, I trust, if we don't find your picture of Islam the least bit attractive. Thank God its reality is infinitely more wonderful than the shoddy and distorted image you have presented here!

Peace,
Bruce

I m not here to trumpet my own ideas - least of all sell Islam on this forum. That is clearly not my objective. You asked about music so I gave it to you. You can choose to accept or reject it.

Regards,

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Mick

Imran,

I would like to suggest something to you that you obviously don't understand. The Baha'is are not pernicious, something that you would be familiar with because you are surrounded by pernicious people. They are a loving, supporting culture, dedicated to the worshipping of God/Allah in their very life and daily decisions.

Baha'is do not have an agenda. The Baha'is simply are following the Truths of God as given us by His most recent Manifestation, Baha'u'llah. Again, I would suggest, you are used to dealing with people with an agenda and so are always looking for the hidden meanings and motivations. It is why we answer questions instead of proselytizing.

The Baha'is are a vast and diverse network found throughout the world in all cultures and countries. They are not a populace of sheep, following the whims or translations of the clergy. Each one has and continues to Investigate individually, looking for the Truths of God/Allah, and, amazingly, coming to the same conclusions. Well, not so amazing, because we are told if we search with our heart, we will recognize the "Spirit of God/Allah". If we search with an agenda or a preconceived notion, then our logical and rational mind, God/Allah gave us, will be clouded. Many of these Baha'is are scholars, involved in academia in many different studies. Many of us are only lowly citizens serving God/Allah. All have come to the same message through investigation, prayer and love of God/Allah.

The Baha'is wish no harm to anybody. No one. Not even those that are causing such pain and suffering to Baha'is in Iran, that only those familiar with their plight could imagine. People like you and I. We both know what is being done to these loving people. We both know that without the dogmatic thoughts of man, these acts could not be justified. Surely, not by any of the writings of the Great Manifestations. Again, you may find this confusing, because you and yours do wish harm on anybody that wouldn't accept your brand of worship, as you have confessed to in this forum. You even have a derogatory name for those that don't think/believe as you do.

If it seems that some of your ideas, that took you two days to research and to write about, were dismissed in a short time, it is because, these hackneyed, trite expressions of discord are not new. We have heard them so many times before. They really have little meaning to us in the Realm of God/Allah. If it seems some of us are not as polite as you or as you would expect in your style of society, forgive us. Many of us have not bothered to acquire a "learned politeness", and sometimes we react to things that hurt us dearly, such as the atrocities that are being laid upon the heads of my Baha'i brothers and sisters in Iran and other Mid-eastern countries.

The Baha'is will have dialogue with you forever. They will pray for your understanding of the Righteousness of Baha'u'llah and the power of His world changing Message. They will not shy away from your accusations, nor will they waver in their "discovered" Truths of God/Allah. We can only hope that, some day, you will see at least a sliver of light shining from the works of Baha'u'llah.

Mick

Dear Mick:

Thank you for your post. I wish to clarify that:

I am only here to further my understanding of the Bahai Faith and its origins. If I am Muslim and the Bahai Faith is the next in the line of dispensations from Allah, then I must accept it.

But should one accept it just like that? I should think not. So I focus on reading Bahai books (not Bahai literature) and whatever questions arise, I try to discuss it with Bahais. Unfortunately, most Bahais take it as a personal insult when one questions them about something that they are uncomfortable with. And this is where the problem arises. So if ou are uncomfortable with my questioning, tell me, I will go. But it is difficult to accept statements which are without any proof.

For example, I am prompted by the Bahais to accept that the Bab was the 12th Imam. "Bab was the Mahdi - the promised Mahdi." Now when I say that in the book of Sahifae Adaliyah, the Bab says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi, then I am told that the book is a forgery or that Bab was the spirit of the Mahdi. Now where is the proof that the Bab said that he was the return of the spirit of the Mahdi? Did the Bab himself say that? Or did Bahaullah say that? On one hand we should focus on the Bab being the Mahdi when the Bab himself is crying out hoarse that he was not the Mahdi, but Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was. Now these are logical questions which arise when one actually reads the books of the Bab. Whom should we raise this question to, but to the Bahais who hae accepted the Bab as the Mahdi. One cant really put these questions to a Muslim right? So I ask the Bahais and they dont like it. What should one do? So I ask different Bahais and all of them dont like the questioning.

But in every question, there is no question of "winning" or "losing" the debate. Every person focusses only on my web site and I tell them that if you can find a single error on my web site for the books which I have referred to, then let me know. I am asked to read Bahai books like "God Passes By" wherein Shoghi refers to the Bab as the Mahdi. I say, one minute, why is then the Bba saying that he was not the Mahdi - why is he saying in Tafseere' Surah Kausar that while he was in Mecca, he saw another person standing next to the Holy Kaaba and he thought that that person was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi? So whom should one believe - the Bab or Shoghi?

So I am told I am surrounded by pernicious people, or that I am prejudiced or deceitful, two-faced, manipulative. Incidentally, all these titles came from the Bahais themselves, I never called any person names. For all the peace-loving Bahais, this is what I got for asking one question - Why did the Bab say that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi?

If it makes you all a lot comfortable, I will stop asking the question. But sadly, it will remain unanswered.

Mick, I too love you and will pray for all Bahais.

Regards,

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Let's think this through, Imran.












By this list the 12th Imam is referred to as the Mahdi, right?
By His return from Mecca, the Bab was claiming to BE the return of the 12th Imam--not the return of the body of Muhammad ibn Hassan, but the return in spirit--SO, if the Bab claims that ibn Hasan is the Mahdi then the Bab is also claiming to be the Mahdi returned.

To my understanding Muhammad ibn Hasan was not given the title of Mahdi until after his occultation, and he was given the title because of his occultation and promised return.

The Bab was that return.

Regards,
Scott

Dear Scott:

The title of Mahdi was given to the 12th Imam much before his birth.

Is there any documentary proof for what you are telling me that the Bab considered himself as the return of the spirit of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan?

Regards,

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by [B

BruceDLimber][/B]
...

{Following the valid point raised that the Qur'an commands there be no compulsion in religion. (2:256)]

EXCEPT, of course, if that person is Baha'i, in which case you apparently don't object to his or her being threatened and executed for refusing to convert to Islam, as your own refusal to condemn this has made very clear! :-(

Imran, your complete failure to respond to this point--indeed, your apparent avoidance of it!--has been yet again duly noted. :-(

How extremely sad.

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Dear Scott:

The title of Mahdi was given to the 12th Imam much before his birth.

Is there any documentary proof for what you are telling me that the Bab considered himself as the return of the spirit of Mohammed Ibnil Hasan?

Regards,

Not the "spirit", Imran, the "essence", just as John fulfilled the requirement of Elijah appearing before the Messiah. A person with the same qualities, to fulfill the same role.

[Popeyesays]

"I am only here to further my understanding of the Bahai Faith and its origins. If I am Muslim and the Bahai Faith is the next in the line of dispensations from Allah, then I must accept it. "

That's nonsense, Imran. You have never had the intention to investigate with an open mind, if you had you would suggest that others investigate with an open mind.

As to the information on your website, who controls that information? You do. Who would make absolutely sure to put nothing on there that would contradict what you have said? You do.

"Thus doth the Nightingale utter His call unto you from this prison. He hath but to deliver this 210 clear message. Whosoever desireth, let him turn aside from this counsel and whosoever desireth let him choose the path to his Lord.
O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.
Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another."
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 209)

[Popeyesays]

"why is he saying in Tafseere' Surah Kausar that while he was in Mecca, he saw another person standing next to the Holy Kaaba and he thought that that person was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi? So whom should one believe - the Bab or Shoghi?"

On one day, Jesus took some of His disciples up onto the mountain where they beheld the figures of Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus, it's called The Transfiguration.
"9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem."

If the Bab and Mohammed Ibnil Hasan were there together, then it is evidence of the same Transfiguration, an annointment of the Bab by His predecessor.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Dear Mick:

Thank you for your post. I wish to clarify that:

I am only here to further my understanding of the Bahai Faith and its origins. If I am Muslim and the Bahai Faith is the next in the line of dispensations from Allah, then I must accept it.

But should one accept it just like that? I should think not. So I focus on reading Bahai books (not Bahai literature) and whatever questions arise, I try to discuss it with Bahais. Unfortunately, most Bahais take it as a personal insult when one questions them about something that they are uncomfortable with. And this is where the problem arises. So if you are uncomfortable with my questioning, tell me, I will go. But it is difficult to accept statements which are without any proof.

I won't even respond to the "innocent" claim of being a lowly seeker. I haven't seen anybody become 'insulted' by your questions; only tired of your not accepting an explanation. You do not want explanations, in my opinion, but are only looking for argument and debate. You are openly debating Scott and are not attempting to disguise this debate with the 'claim of questions'. Why would you bother to make that claim with me?

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

For example, I am prompted by the Bahais to accept that the Bab was the 12th Imam. "Bab was the Mahdi - the promised Mahdi." Now when I say that in the book of Sahifae Adaliyah, the Bab says that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi, then I am told that the book is a forgery or that Bab was the spirit of the Mahdi. Now where is the proof that the Bab said that he was the return of the spirit of the Mahdi? Did the Bab himself say that? Or did Bahaullah say that? On one hand we should focus on the Bab being the Mahdi when the Bab himself is crying out hoarse that he was not the Mahdi, but Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was. Now these are logical questions which arise when one actually reads the books of the Bab. Whom should we raise this question to, but to the Bahais who hae accepted the Bab as the Mahdi. One cant really put these questions to a Muslim right? So I ask the Bahais and they dont like it. What should one do? So I ask different Bahais and all of them dont like the questioning.

You weren't prompted by any Baha'i to accept anything. You asked questions. Many of the Baha'is here have lovingly, at least passionately, explained the Baha'i belief as they/we understand it. You aren't willing to accept that. That is OK with us. Go on your way, then. That is OK with us, also. We do believe that each of us has the God given right to a free will. Use it. We have used ours. No amount of bantering from you will change that. You see, we see you as friends with some pernicious individuals. Remember the times I have mentioned the torture and murder of my Baha'i friends in Iran that you have chosen to ignore or simply dismiss as not germane to this discussion? I do and until you are willing to address these issues, what you think, believe or feel has little interest to me.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

But in every question, there is no question of "winning" or "losing" the debate. Every person focusses only on my web site and I tell them that if you can find a single error on my web site for the books which I have referred to, then let me know. I am asked to read Bahai books like "God Passes By" wherein Shoghi refers to the Bab as the Mahdi. I say, one minute, why is then the Bba saying that he was not the Mahdi - why is he saying in Tafseere' Surah Kausar that while he was in Mecca, he saw another person standing next to the Holy Kaaba and he thought that that person was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi? So whom should one believe - the Bab or Shoghi?

Both. It has already been explained. You have chosen to ignore it.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

So I am told I am surrounded by pernicious people, or that I am prejudiced or deceitful, two-faced, manipulative. Incidentally, all these titles came from the Bahais themselves, I never called any person names. For all the peace-loving Bahais, this is what I got for asking one question - Why did the Bab say that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was the Mahdi?

I claim the "pernicious" accusation and stand by it. Concerning the other ones let me tell you what my impression is of you, since you brought it up.

1. Deceitful.....yep
2. Two-faced....yep
3. Manipulative...yep

But this isn't about you or shouldn't be, it is whether you are a seeker of Truth of a dissimulator of the ultimate.

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

If it makes you all a lot comfortable, I will stop asking the question. But sadly, it will remain unanswered.

Mick, I too love you and will pray for all Bahais.

Regards,

Why not try a question concerning Baha'u'llah for a change. I am sure there has to be more than one question in your mind. Thank you. I appreciate all the prayers I can get.

Mick

[Promethium]

This is a bit off topic but I read the first post to this topic and found these quotes in response.

"THE recognition of Him Who is the Bearer of divine Truth is none other than the recognition of God, and loving Him is none other than loving God. However, I swear by the sublime Essence of God—exalted and glorified be He—that I did not wish my identity to be known by men, and gave instructions that My name should be concealed, because I was fully aware of the incapacity of this people, who are none other than those who have, in reference to no less a person than the Apostle of God—incomparable as He hath ever been—remarked, ‘He is certainly a lunatic’. 1 If they now claim to be other than those people, their deeds bear witness to the falsity of their assertions. That which God testifieth is none other than what His supreme Testimony testifieth."
-The Bab, (SWB p121)


YUSUFALI: And the Unbelievers would almost trip thee up with their eyes when they hear the Message; and they say: "Surely he is possessed!"
-Quran 68:51