The Bab

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

[/i]

Imran, your complete failure to respond to this point--indeed, your apparent avoidance of it!--has been yet again duly noted. :-(
How extremely sad.
Bruce

I have responded to this point many times before. Its sad tht you do not wish to accept my explanation of the same.

Regards,

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Not the "spirit", Imran, the "essence", just as John fulfilled the requirement of Elijah appearing before the Messiah. A person with the same qualities, to fulfill the same role.

In your earlier post, you mentioned spirit. That is why I used the same word. Now you say not spirit, but essence.

Read the text of Sahifae Adaliyah. The Bab makes no mention of spirit, essence or any other word that you can come up with. Again I ask you, is there some documentary proof for this or have you ingeniously thought of this all by yourself? If not the Bab, then did Bahaullah say something about the Bab being the spirit, essence...whatever of the Mahdi?

Did you get a chance to read the text. if you are done with that, I can give you another reference from the same book.

Why would the Bab say that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan is the Mahdi and make no mention of the "spirit" theory?

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I have responded to this point many times before. Its sad tht you do not wish to accept my explanation of the same.

Regards,

I accept your explanation, but that does not make your explanation correct or even cogent.

Again it simply does not matter what the traditions you offer say. Even if they might ever have been correct (and I doubt they were) they no longer apply. Why? Because the Day of Judgment has come and the new Revelation has changed all that.

"Music is a ladder for the soul." says Baha`u'llah. All the correct or incorrect traditions are hereby made null.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

"why is he saying in Tafseere' Surah Kausar that while he was in Mecca, he saw another person standing next to the Holy Kaaba and he thought that that person was Mohammed Ibnil Hasan, the Mahdi? So whom should one believe - the Bab or Shoghi?"

On one day, Jesus took some of His disciples up onto the mountain where they beheld the figures of Moses and Elijah standing with Jesus, it's called The Transfiguration.
"9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem."

If the Bab and Mohammed Ibnil Hasan were there together, then it is evidence of the same Transfiguration, an annointment of the Bab by His predecessor.

Here is another quotation from Tafseere' Surah Kausar of the Bab which rubbishes your theory. Mind you, it is not me, but the Bab who rubbishes your theory -

The Bab writes, "Imam Sadiq has related in a lengthy tradition, saying: "The occultation of our Qa'im will be denied by the umma. Some will say, without any knowledge: The Imam was never born; others will say: he was born, but he died. Still others will become disbelievers and will say: The eleventh Imam had no offspring at all. Some will spread factionalism in the community by what they say, and will go beyond the twelve Imams and will count thirteen or more Imams. There will be those who will cause God's anger to engulf them by saying: The spirit of the Qa'im is speaking through another person."

Apologies for the language, but I am human as well.

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

In your earlier post, you mentioned spirit. That is why I used the same word. Now you say not spirit, but essence.

Read the text of Sahifae Adaliyah. The Bab makes no mention of spirit, essence or any other word that you can come up with. Again I ask you, is there some documentary proof for this or have you ingeniously thought of this all by yourself? If not the Bab, then did Bahaullah say something about the Bab being the spirit, essence...whatever of the Mahdi?

Did you get a chance to read the text. if you are done with that, I can give you another reference from the same book.

Why would the Bab say that Mohammed Ibnil Hasan is the Mahdi and make no mention of the "spirit" theory?

Regards,

Jesus did not explain the appearance of Moses and Elijah either by calling them spirit. The Bab saw the 12th Imam as a confirmation of the Bab's own claim.

That being said, the book you offer is not necessarily correct. It survived in the hands of pernicious forgers and the handwriting of the script has not been verified. And, yes, we know the handwriting of all of the Bab's secretaries and His own hand is quite distinctive.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Mick

I won't even respond to the "innocent" claim of being a lowly seeker. I haven't seen anybody become 'insulted' by your questions; only tired of your not accepting an explanation. You do not want explanations, in my opinion, but are only looking for argument and debate. You are openly debating Scott and are not attempting to disguise this debate with the 'claim of questions'. Why would you bother to make that claim with me?

Wrong. What else have I done, but to ask one question - About the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam. it is important to me as a Muslim to understand this. Maybe you were born Bahai. I was not. That explains my interest in those matters which the Bahais accept as a matter of fact.

Maybe you were not born Bahai. But you found something in the Bahai Faith that made you accept it. I have not yet graduated to that stage. I am still understanding the Bab.

Why not try a question concerning Baha'u'llah for a change. I am sure there has to be more than one question in your mind. Thank you. I appreciate all the prayers I can get.
Mick

Inshallah, if Allah grants me life, you can be sure that I will do that as well. Pray for my long life. I guarantee that I will make full use of it to study the Bahai Faith.

Regards,

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I have responded to this point many times before. Its sad tht you do not wish to accept my explanation of the same.

On the contrary, I've never seen you comment on the topic of the persecution of Baha'is in Iran at all, and as I just pointed out, you've apparently been avoiding the subject when we've raised it!

So I would be most interested in seeing you actually post a comment / statement stating your feelings about this, and whether or not you support the Iranian Baha'is and the freedom to practice their religion which they are being denied.

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Jesus did not explain the appearance of Moses and Elijah either by calling them spirit. The Bab saw the 12th Imam as a confirmation of the Bab's own claim.

That being said, the book you offer is not necessarily correct. It survived in the hands of pernicious forgers and the handwriting of the script has not been verified. And, yes, we know the handwriting of all of the Bab's secretaries and His own hand is quite distinctive.

Regards,
Scott

While I am still debating how much of the present day Bible to use in arguments (I remember reading that even Shoghi accepts that the Quran is the only revelation of Allah which has remained untouched), does it really answer the question? Even if one were to accept your theory for understanding (not argument's sake), it still does not add up. When Jesus saw Moses and Elijah, he did not say that I am Moses and Elijah did he?

I actually gave you only half the quote from the book - the entire quote is -

"One day I was busy praying in the holy mosque of Mecca, on the side of the Yamani pillar (of the Kaaba). I noticed a well built and good looking young man who was deeply involved in performing the circumambulation (tawaf). He had a white turban on his head and a woolen cloak on his shoulder. He was with the merchants' group from Fars. There was no more than a few steps of distance between us. All of a sudden a thought came to my mind that he could be the Master of the Command (sahib al-amr). But I was embarrassed to go closer to him. When I finished my prayers I did not find him. Nevertheless, I am not so sure that he was the Master of the Command."

So:

1. The Bab thought some person else was the 12th Imam
2. This person appeared in person who was performing the actions of tawaf etc
3. If Bab was the spirit, essence whatever of the Mahdi, he could not recognise the person whose return he was?

How is that possible? Just asking :-)

Regards,

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

I have not yet graduated to that stage. I am still understanding the Bab.

Which is fine, and we commend you therefor! :-)

Best,

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

On the contrary, I've never seen you comment on the topic of the persecution of Baha'is in Iran at all, and as I just pointed out, you've apparently been avoiding the subject when we've raised it!

So I would be most interested in seeing you actually post a comment / statement stating your feelings about this, and whether or not you support the Iranian Baha'is and the freedom to practice their religion which they are being denied.

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

The day the Bahais comment on the topic of persecution of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelites, I will be happy to put down my comment on the persecution of the Bahais in Iran. But frankly, I have no interest in either.

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

I doubt Mick was born Baha`i. I wasn't. Neither was Bruce. We all came to it the hard way--by examining it. We examined to see if it might be the truth. You examine it to find ways to argue against it. Your website is proof of that.

Mostly you remind me of the testimony of the war criminals at Nuremburg.Well, you had no orders to do what you do; but, what you do is contributing to the death and persecution of the Baha`i's in Iran therefore you are also guilty of every evil inflicted upon them. Each one who suffers grief and anguish, imprisonment or death is one more mustard seed on the wrong end of the scales, Imran.

If you were a true pilgrim you would look, decide and move on without concern for fighting against any religious claim. You just look for ways to sharpen your ax.

Scott

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

While I am still debating how much of the present day Bible to use in arguments (I remember reading that even Shoghi accepts that the Quran is the only revelation of Allah which has remained untouched), does it really answer the question? Even if one were to accept your theory for understanding (not argument's sake), it still does not add up. When Jesus saw Moses and Elijah, he did not say that I am Moses and Elijah did he?

I actually gave you only half the quote from the book - the entire quote is -

"One day I was busy praying in the holy mosque of Mecca, on the side of the Yamani pillar (of the Kaaba). I noticed a well built and good looking young man who was deeply involved in performing the circumambulation (tawaf). He had a white turban on his head and a woolen cloak on his shoulder. He was with the merchants' group from Fars. There was no more than a few steps of distance between us. All of a sudden a thought came to my mind that he could be the Master of the Command (sahib al-amr). But I was embarrassed to go closer to him. When I finished my prayers I did not find him. Nevertheless, I am not so sure that he was the Master of the Command."

So:

1. The Bab thought some person else was the 12th Imam
2. This person appeared in person who was performing the actions of tawaf etc
3. If Bab was the spirit, essence whatever of the Mahdi, he could not recognise the person whose return he was?

How is that possible? Just asking :-)

Regards,

And the passage makes its own conclusion: Nevertheless, I am not so sure that he was the Master of the Command.

By the way, does not "Amr" mean more closely "Cause". So He might be referred to as "Master of the Cause."

It sounds like "If it be thy will, take this cup from me." that Jesus spoke in the Garden of Gethsamene.

This side-steps the issue that the book you refer to has no real provenance and what it says about anything might be the forgery of others rather than the words of the Bab.
Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Wrong. What else have I done, but to ask one question - About the Bab being the Mahdi of Islam. it is important to me as a Muslim to understand this. Maybe you were born Bahai. I was not. That explains my interest in those matters which the Bahais accept as a matter of fact.

Maybe you were not born Bahai. But you found something in the Bahai Faith that made you accept it. I have not yet graduated to that stage. I am still understanding the Bab.



Inshallah, if Allah grants me life, you can be sure that I will do that as well. Pray for my long life. I guarantee that I will make full use of it to study the Bahai Faith.

Regards,

We cannot make you or assure you that you will understand anything. Again, I will repeat, you are not seeking...you are arguing. No other way to put it. I surely would not pray for a long life for you. That could be a wicked and horrible thing to do. Suppose you continue to be locked into your evil and nefarious way. How horrible that would be for anybody to suffer for a long period of time. I will pray that you will accept the life that God/Allah may grant you and learn to turn your face to God/Allah for His guidance.

Until you are willing to respond to somebodies questions concerning whether you support the pernicious individuals that are causing harm to my brothers and sisters in Iran or are offended by these actions of these evil and misguided individuals, I refuse to discuss anything else with you, unless you would like to share prayers with us.

Imran, I didn't say I love you. I am not even sure I could like you. In fact, right now, with what I know of you, I can honestly say I don't like you. On the other hand, if your heart quickened with the Truth of God and that radiant smile blossomed across your face that can only come from seeing His Guides, then I could surely fall in love with all you would represent. But I am not attracted to merchants of hate or thieves of time, so until that time, I would like it if you didn't think of me as your brother.

Mick

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

And the passage makes its own conclusion: Nevertheless, I am not so sure that he was the Master of the Command.

By the way, does not "Amr" mean more closely "Cause". So He might be referred to as "Master of the Cause."

It sounds like "If it be thy will, take this cup from me." that Jesus spoke in the Garden of Gethsamene.

This side-steps the issue that the book you refer to has no real provenance and what it says about anything might be the forgery of others rather than the words of the Bab.
Regards,
Scott

I could not understand what is the relation of the statement of Jesus with that of the Bab.

Secondly, Mohammed Ibnil Hasan was referred to as Sahebal Amr as early as the period of the 6th Imam - Imam Sadiq (as).

Thirdly, are you saying with any authority that the book was forged? If there documentary proof from any Bahai authority that one should not refer to Tafseere' Kausar because it is forged?

At yet another place, the Bab while referring to the 12th Imam says:

In Tafseere' Surah Kauthar, the Bab says, "He (the twelfth Imam) is a righteous offspring. His patronymic is Abu al-Qasim (the same nick name as the Holy Prophet Muhammad)."

Yet, again, the Bab asserts that he was not the Mahdi. Was Abul Qasim the patronym of the Bab? If I remember correctly, Bab was from Iran and not an Arab. And I do not recollect him or any person ever referring to him as Abul Qasim.

Regards,

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Mick

We cannot make you or assure you that you will understand anything. Again, I will repeat, you are not seeking...you are arguing. No other way to put it. I surely would not pray for a long life for you. That could be a wicked and horrible thing to do. Suppose you continue to be locked into your evil and nefarious way. How horrible that would be for anybody to suffer for a long period of time. I will pray that you will accept the life that God/Allah may grant you and learn to turn your face to God/Allah for His guidance.

Until you are willing to respond to somebodies questions concerning whether you support the pernicious individuals that are causing harm to my brothers and sisters in Iran or are offended by these actions of these evil and misguided individuals, I refuse to discuss anything else with you, unless you would like to share prayers with us.

Imran, I didn't say I love you. I am not even sure I could like you. In fact, right now, with what I know of you, I can honestly say I don't like you. On the other hand, if your heart quickened with the Truth of God and that radiant smile blossomed across your face that can only come from seeing His Guides, then I could surely fall in love with all you would represent. But I am not attracted to merchants of hate or thieves of time, so until that time, I would like it if you didn't think of me as your brother.

Mick

No problem if you dont like me. Or love me. Or dont pray for my long life.

You wanted my view on Iran. I asked for the Bahai view on the Israel occupation of Palestine and murder of thousands of Palestinians.

As per your request, only to make you happy, much against my will, I will not consider you as my brother.

Regards,