The Bab

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Religion is something that is even older then civilised man, it has been changing for thousands of years. Within that time humans have tried to keep there own securlar morality under control. Sometimes religion has even been the cause of the dissruption of morality. Often it promotes human morality. Is it truely possible for religion to finally hault its evolution 1400 years ago?

In each religion from the start its clear to see the connection with social issues of the time. Something pointed out by the Baha'i faith.

If Baha`u'llah is speaking truth, He agrees with you. The purpose of the progression of religion is to progress the civilization of mankind 'til it reaches its best potential. That is a PROCESS not a product, and it is essentially an eternal process. Man's society is pointed at creating the Kingdom of God, but we cannot expect the Mahdi, or the return of Christ to simply decree it. God is the architext, not the builder.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

That is why many of Cynical stuff pointed out by Imran about the Baha'i faith are probably correct. I wonder how many shocking stuff is left undiscovered of all other religions some of which are being discovered as we speak. (The Baha'i faith would be more vulnerable to this kind of criticism).. There's never a wrong or right answer the answer is always inbetween. Science once flourished under Islam (now flourishing in the west), science today tells us we evolved from animals. Whereas the 3 Abrehamic faiths tell us we came from Adam and Eve. Truely which version do you pick? The Judaic or the modern scientific? If you pick the Judaic you are backwards in my view and you have been left behind by your own ignorance.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

That is why many of Cynical stuff pointed out by Imran about the Baha'i faith are probably correct. I wonder how many shocking stuff is left undiscovered of all other religions some of which are being discovered as we speak. (The Baha'i faith would be more vulnerable to this kind of criticism).. There's never a wrong or right answer the answer is always inbetween. Science once flourished under Islam (now flourishing in the west), science today tells us we evolved from animals. Whereas the 3 Abrehamic faiths tell us we came from Adam and Eve. Truely which version do you pick? The Judaic or the modern scientific? If you pick the Judaic you are backwards in my view and you have been left behind by your own ignorance.

I understand the quandry. To me, Adam and Eve is an allegory and has nothing to do with the first humans nor a snake with legs. I can accept the dichotomy of God's will being expressed through the interplay of genetics.

Science and religion both attempt to explain the world using just 'one eye'. If you want stereo vision, you gotta use both eyes.

Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

That is why many of Cynical stuff pointed out by Imran about the Baha'i faith are probably correct. I wonder how many shocking stuff is left undiscovered of all other religions some of which are being discovered as we speak. (The Baha'i faith would be more vulnerable to this kind of criticism).. There's never a wrong or right answer the answer is always inbetween. Science once flourished under Islam (now flourishing in the west), science today tells us we evolved from animals. Whereas the 3 Abrehamic faiths tell us we came from Adam and Eve. We would depend reason to pick which version to believe.

Could there be more than two versions? We are told that we must be able to discern the difference between the symbolic and the actual when reading the Holy Scriptures. We do this by applying a simple statement. If it is logical it is of God. If it is illogical it is of man. God created the logic that man uses so as to know Him. There are those that suggest that when God leaned down and breathed life into Adam, what he did was imbue the first huminoid with logic, so he could be aware of God and His expectations. So in this sense, He would have breathed logic into man, something that is not found in any other animal on the earth.

That would be a third explanation of creation. Are there more? Maybe another thread, here. Regardless, God's message is progressive. I don't see how anybody could deny this. It is historical.

Imran, I would suggest if you are comfortable with your beliefs, we are comfortable with you. "Self-investigation" for the truth, not spoon feeding, is one of the charges given to mankind according to Baha'u'llah. You simply must investigate your concerns and doubts and then make your own decision. It is not anybodies job to do this for you. We are not here to debate, as you would like to, but to share the knowledges we have found. If they are not satisfying to you, then, please, continue to investigate. If you do so with an open heart, the truth will come to you.

I wish you well on your journey.

Mick

[I, Brian]

Interesting the original post has created such a varied discussion - but if it's any consolation, "mental illness" is a pretty common cheap shot, even today. "Modern science" will tell you there is no spiritual experience - just temporal lobe epilepsy.

I mean, seriously, Postmaster, Jesus spending 40 days in the wilderness - doesn't sound altogether different, and just as easy to dismiss as the behaviour of a nutter.

[Postmaster]

Regarding the information on baha'i awareness some of the stuff is very seriously damaging to the Baha'i faith. It even has quotations from Bahaullah's sister saying that he was always interested in property and power. I wonder how much of the information is accurate? To be honest I often found it curious how Bahaullah came out of prison and was able to live in these very nice palaces? And a man of such relgious status you would have expected to live in something alittle more modest.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Regarding the information on baha'i awareness some of the stuff is very seriously damaging to the Baha'i faith. It even has quotations from Bahaullah's sister saying that he was always interested in property and power. I wonder how much of the information is accurate? To be honest I often found it curious how Bahaullah came out of prison and was able to live in these very nice palaces? And a man of such relgious status you would have expected to live in something alittle more modest.

And what does innuendo achieve. I wonder if Baha'u'llah had been aware of what you would have expected of Him 140 years later, if that would have affected Him in the least. Considering the world changing message He was sharing, if anything, He may be surprised that arguments would be so petty; over what a sister may or may not had said or what structure the believers made available to Him in His last days. You are quoting from a site that is dedicated to the destruction of the Baha'i Faith. Are you part of this or are you just an innocent shill being used by the transgressers.

Why would you wonder about gossip, when your wonder should be directed to His message. Can you recognize the fruits? Are they spoiled and bad. Do you sense evil in anything concerning the Baha'i Faith or any of the Central Figures. If not, what is the point?

Mick

[9Harmony]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Regarding the information on baha'i awareness some of the stuff is very seriously damaging to the Baha'i faith. It even has quotations from Bahaullah's sister saying that he was always interested in property and power. I wonder how much of the information is accurate? To be honest I often found it curious how Bahaullah came out of prison and was able to live in these very nice palaces? And a man of such relgious status you would have expected to live in something alittle more modest.

"...Then it was decided to remove to another place, at Bahjí. It so happened that an epidemic disease had broken out at Bahjí, and the proprietor of the house fled away in distress, with all his family, ready to offer the house free of charge to any applicant. We took the house at a very low rent, and there the doors of majesty and true sovereignty were flung wide open. Bahá’u’lláh was nominally a prisoner (for the drastic firmans of Sultán ‘Abdu’l-’Aziz were never repealed), yet in reality He showed forth such nobility and dignity in His life and bearing that He was reverenced by all, and the Rulers of Palestine envied His influence and power. Governors and Mutasarrifs, generals and local officials, would humbly request the honor of attaining His presence—a request to which He seldom acceded."Baha'u'llah and the New Era, Pages 34-38: 37

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 34-38

"Having in His earlier years of hardship shown how to glorify God in a state of poverty and ignominy, Bahá’u’lláh in His later years at Bahjí showed how to glorify God in a state of honor and affluence. The offering of hundreds of thousands of devoted followers placed at His disposal large funds which He was called upon to administer. Although His life at Bahjí has been described as truly regal, in the highest sense of the word, yet it must not be imagined that it was characterized by material splendor or extravagance. The Blessed Perfection and His family lived in very simple and modest fashion, and expenditure on selfish luxury was a think unknown in that household. Near His home the believers prepared a beautiful garden called Ridván, in which He often spent many consecutive days or even weeks, sleeping at night in a little cottage in the garden. Occasionally He went further afield. He made several visits to Akká and Haifa, and on more than one occasion pitched His tent on Mount Carmel, as He had predicted when imprisoned in the barracks at Akká. The time of Bahá’u’lláh was spent for the most part in prayer and meditation, in writing the Sacred Books, revealing Tablets, and in spiritual education of the friends. In order to give Him entire freedom for this great work, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá undertook the arrangement of all other affairs, even meeting the Mullás, poets, and members of the Government. All of these were delighted and happy through meeting ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and entirely satisfied with His explanation and talks, and although they had not met Bahá’u’lláh Himself, they became full of friendly feeling towards Him, 39 through their acquaintanceship with His son, for ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s attitude caused them to understand the station of His father." Baha'u'llah and the New Era, Pages 38-40: gr1

[Promethium]

In Baha'u'llah's youth He declined a ministerial career in the government, which was open to Him. Instead he decided to participate in community service activities. He eventually garnered the nickname "Father of the poor".
After His release from the abyss known as the Siyah-Chal, he was banished to Baghdad and eventually retreated to live alone in the mountains of Kurdistan for two years in the hopes that His absence would quell disunity within the Babi community.


"The one object of Our retirement was to avoid becoming a subject of discord among the faithful, a source of disturbance unto Our companions, the means of injury to any soul, or the cause of sorrow to any heart. Beyond these, We cherished no other intention, and apart from them, We had no end in view."
-Kitab-i-Iqan, pp. 250-252.

"concourse of Ministers of State! Do ye believe in your hearts that We have come to divest you of your earthly possessions and vanities? Nay, by the One in Whose hand is My soul! Our intention hath been to make clear that We oppose not the commands of the sovereign, nor are We to be numbered with the rebellious. Know ye of a certainty that all the treasures of the earth, all the gold, the silver, and the rare and precious gems they contain, are, in the sight of God, of His chosen ones and His loved ones, as worthless as a handful of clay. For erelong all that is on earth shall perish, and the kingdom will remain unto God, the All-Powerful, the Incomparable. That which perisheth can never profit Us, nor can it profit you, were ye but to reflect."
-Summons to the Lords of Hosts p 208
-Baha'u'llah

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Regarding the information on baha'i awareness some of the stuff is very seriously damaging to the Baha'i faith. It even has quotations from Bahaullah's sister saying that he was always interested in property and power. I wonder how much of the information is accurate? To be honest I often found it curious how Bahaullah came out of prison and was able to live in these very nice palaces? And a man of such relgious status you would have expected to live in something alittle more modest.

Its accurate to the extent that I have the book with me from which the quotations have been taken, which is saying something given that evrybody else who rejects the quotation would have not even heard of the book.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Its accurate to the extent that I have the book with me from which the quotations have been taken, which is saying something given that evrybody else who rejects the quotation would have not even heard of the book.

Regards
Imran Shaykh

Well if it is printed it must be true.

I haven't heard of the book, yet, since you didn't mention which book it came from.

[Popeyesays]

Well, Irman, I wonder what book, and I wonder which sister, and I really wonder what the context of the statement ws, and if it's in Farsi or Arabic, would it be possible for you to scan the pages and make them available for others. I can't handle the translation, but I have friends who can.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

Well he was considered a heretic so I guess it was possible his sister would regard him as one. Maybe she was trying to justify why he behaved as he did. Maybe not? Before I thought it as cynical simply showing a similarity in religious ideas of Manichaeism to the Baha'i faith of which the founder came from Persian royalty also but 1700 years ealier even before Islam. This could actually be a plus in my view now, as it is intune with the progressive revelation.

Religious scholars can and have spotted more damaging problems in all monotheist religions and as I have said before Baha'i faith would be more vulnerable and as it's yet an other heretical faith you would expect mis-information to make its way through? Although some information on the Baha'i awareness could actually tip the scales.

[arthra]

Look at it this way...Did Christianity have any "enemies" when it began? What were the responses of the the Roman pagans when they first heard of Christianity... They thought there was a love cult and believed trhe Christians had things in common even their wives... They believed the Christians sacrificed infants and were anarchists refusing to acknowledge Ceasar so there were enemies who through innuendo and slander sought to attack the new Faith. The same is going on today with detractors of the Baha'i Faith... They have some of the truth and tryu to use it as a means to slander the Faith and it's Founder. Peoipel attack Islam and Prophet Muhammad the same was using innuendo and slander so this is nothing new...It's a time honored but despicable practise.

- Art

[Postmaster]

I guess.

Back to Manichaeism, it wasn't only the Baha'i faith that got influenced by that religion. Another religion was too.