The Bab

[Popeyesays]

What appear to be genuine Manichaean documents were not discovered until 1969. The Baha`i Faith was 125 years old by then. The actual thoughts and writings of Mani couldn't have affected the Baha`i Faith, nor Islam since the only remnants of Manichaeanism were buried in China at the time of Muhammad.

That the teachings of Mani affected the COuncil of Nicaea is obvious since it was declared a heresy at that time. But by the time of Muhammad, there apparently were not real Mani writings extant. The religion of Mani was essentially recreated in China after their loss of genuine texts.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

So because of the dualism in Manichaeanism you are saying that the other aspects of that religion didn't influence the Baha'i faith? They clearly clearly did. He was the world’s first global prophet Manichaeanism as established from Western Europe to Far East Asia. All religions were equal in Mani's eyes. There was one universal religion in which they all fit in. But he was a heretic to the Zoroastrians and early Christians. He too claimed visitation from an Angel, I'm not sure if he was claiming to be the return of Christ but he considered himself as another apostle of Christ.

He absolutely did all those things, but a hundred years after his death his writings were largely lost, another century after that and they were entirely lost.

Also see my above post.

Regards,
Scott

[arthra]

As long as Postmaster brought up Manichaeism I thought it would be good to share the wiki free encyclopaedia on the subject:

Manichaeism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For sure it's an interesting subject for those of who are studying history of religion. I know I studied about it many years ago.. It's a pretty fair article and one of the statements made may be of interest:

"How much long-term influence the Manichees actually had on Christianity is still being debated. It has been suggested that the Bogomils, Paulicians, and the Cathars were deeply influenced by Manichaeism. However, the Bogomils and Cathars, in particular, left few records of their rituals or doctrines, and the link between them and Manicheans is tenuous."

I would suggest here that there is no evidence of any connection whatsoever or influence of Manichaeism on the Baha'i Faith.

- Art

[Postmaster]

Mani viewed himself as the final successor in a long line of prophets, beginning with Adam and including Buddha, Zoroaster, and Jesus. He viewed earlier revelations of the true religion as being limited in effectiveness because they were local, taught in one language to one people. Moreover, later adherents lost sight of the original truth. Mani regarded himself as the carrier of a universal message destined to replace all other religions. Hoping to avoid corruption and to ensure doctrinal unity, he recorded his teachings in writing and gave those writings canonical status during his lifetime.

Mani sought to found a truly ecumenical and universal religion that would integrate into itself all the partial truths of previous revelations, especially those of Zoroaster, Buddha, and Jesus. However, beyond mere syncretism, it sought the proclamation of a truth that could be translated into diverse forms in accordance with the different cultures into which it spread. Thus, Manichaeism, depending on the context, resembles Iranian and Indian religions, Christianity, Buddhism, and Taoism.

I think it would be a favour to the Baha'i faith to accpet a connection in theology as this is intune with progressive revlation. But not quite the divinely inspired one you have been led to believe. Kind of got a cynical twist to it.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I think it would be a favour to the Baha'i faith to accpet a connection in theology as this is intune with progressive revlation. But not quite the divinely inspired one you have been led to believe. Kind of got a cynical twist to it.

Well I think personally Postmaster that we can all appreciate universalism but I seriously doubt that the theology of what we know about Manichaeism is compatible with Baha'i Faith... as it was dualist.

- Art

[Popeyesays]

Islam, the Bab and Baha`u'llah were quite careful to enumerate the previous Apostles of God and They all said that there were other Apostles whose names and books had been lost in time and They could not be identified.
The largest part of Mani's teachings are lost and gone, was Mani one of these lost Apostles of God, we can never say with any authority that Mani was or was not.

As conjecture I would say that if dualism was the express teaching of Mani, that would make it very hard to place him in the line of Messengers of God.

Regards,
Scott

[Postmaster]

As conjecture I would say that if dualism was the express teaching of Mani, that would make it very hard to place him in the line of Messengers of God.

Look at the Dualism in Buddhism which is even an ATHIEST religion and the Baha'i faith accepts Buddha as one of Gods manifestations. At least Mani still believed in God regardless if he was an equal to an opposing force. The same thing happened with Christianity and Mithraism very similar accept Mithraism was an all male religion. Something as simple as that could have led to its down fall and thus Christianity flourished. It is said history doesn't repeat but rhymes.

If the ideas of the Baha'i faith developed independently from Manichaeism, then to me it leaves the conspiracy theories of how the faith developed open verdict to me. This at least is showing a possitive theological take on it.

[arthra]

Postmaster wrote:

If the ideas of the Baha'i faith developed independently from Manichaeism, then to me it leaves the conspiracy theories of how the faith developed open verdict to me. This at least is showing a possitive theological take on it.

My comment:

For Baha'is the principles of our Faith are suited for the world as it exists today..that is the need for world peace and unity... the eradication of prejudices whether religious, cast, class or between male and female.

Universalism I think is a very important concept and Mani probably received some foretaste or inkling of the need for unity and that's a very good thing..unfortuantely the idea didn't catch on very well in the fourth century but the idea was good.

- Art

[bupanishad2007]

Originally Posted by arthra

Postmaster wrote:

If the ideas of the Baha'i faith developed independently from Manichaeism, then to me it leaves the conspiracy theories of how the faith developed open verdict to me. This at least is showing a possitive theological take on it.

My comment:

For Baha'is the principles of our Faith are suited for the world as it exists today..that is the need for world peace and unity... the eradication of prejudices whether religious, cast, class or between male and female.

Universalism I think is a very important concept and Mani probably received some foretaste or inkling of the need for unity and that's a very good thing..unfortuantely the idea didn't catch on very well in the fourth century but the idea was good.

- Art

What is curious to me is that the Bab was first a Shi'ite, and claimed to be the Twelfth Imam. Baha'ullah continued this idea, I believe, and that's why the Persians (Iranians) persecuted Him and His followers so terribly.

[Popeyesays]

The Bab was indeed a Shi'ih Muslim, as was Baha`u'llah. Yes, the first claim the Bab made was to be the Bab, or Gate, as the 12th Imam. But it was not His only claim, He claimed not to be the physical return of the 12th Imam as most Shi'ih Muslims were waiting for, but the Mahd'i. later the Dikhr'u'llah (Remembrance of God) and finaly the Primal Point (Nuqta).

In the role of Mahd'i He claimed that soon would follow He Whom God Shall Make Manifest, Who would be the object of the Bab's entire revelation, with the power to nullify everything the Bab had revealed. Baha`u'llah claims to be He Whom God Shall Make Manifest. That has nothing to do with the 12th Imam.

Regards,
Scott

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Look at the Dualism in Buddhism which is even an ATHIEST religion and the Baha'i faith accepts Buddha as one of Gods manifestations. At least Mani still believed in God regardless if he was an equal to an opposing force. The same thing happened with Christianity and Mithraism very similar accept Mithraism was an all male religion. Something as simple as that could have led to its down fall and thus Christianity flourished. It is said history doesn't repeat but rhymes.

If the ideas of the Baha'i faith developed independently from Manichaeism, then to me it leaves the conspiracy theories of how the faith developed open verdict to me. This at least is showing a possitive theological take on it.

Actually, I don't concede that Buddhism is atheist at all. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying in the last paragraph, could you expand it a little?

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

The Bab was indeed a Shi'ih Muslim, as was Baha`u'llah. Yes, the first claim the Bab made was to be the Bab, or Gate, as the 12th Imam. But it was not His only claim, He claimed not to be the physical return of the 12th Imam as most Shi'ih Muslims were waiting for, but the Mahd'i. later the Dikhr'u'llah (Remembrance of God) and finaly the Primal Point (Nuqta). In the role of Mahd'i He claimed that soon would follow He Whom God Shall Make Manifest, Who would be the object of the Bab's entire revelation, with the power to nullify everything the Bab had revealed. Baha`u'llah claims to be He Whom God Shall Make Manifest. That has nothing to do with the 12th Imam.

Regards,
Scott

Dear Scott:

Are you trying to tell us that the Mahdi was different than the 12th Imam? Are these two different persons?

Regards
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Actually, I don't concede that Buddhism is atheist at all. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying in the last paragraph, could you expand it a little?

Regards,
Scott

There is quite an interesting piece I read once, and I liked it for its logic more than anything else.

It basically listed out the major religions of the world or influences and pointed out the key elements related to the unity of God - in the sense that all of them were so diverse, but yet, the Bahai Faith in its quest for "unity" put all of them in the same fishbowl.

Take Hinduism for example, it is a religion of extreme dualism (forget dualism, then have over a 36 million "gods" or avatars!

None of the teachings of Hinduism and Islam match. Yet, Bahais are the only one who will believe that they came from the same God! How does one reconcile this?

Regards
Imran

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

There is quite an interesting piece I read once, and I liked it for its logic more than anything else.

It basically listed out the major religions of the world or influences and pointed out the key elements related to the unity of God - in the sense that all of them were so diverse, but yet, the Bahai Faith in its quest for "unity" put all of them in the same fishbowl.

Take Hinduism for example, it is a religion of extreme dualism (forget dualism, then have over a 36 million "gods" or avatars!

None of the teachings of Hinduism and Islam match. Yet, Bahais are the only one who will believe that they came from the same God! How does one reconcile this?

Regards
Imran

"Avatars" are not Gods. Ask ninety percent of Hindus in the world: "How many Gods are there?" And they will answer: "One".

Hindu Monotheism is explained well in Wikpedia:
"
Truth is One, but sages call it by many names. Monotheistic theology was/is an inherent part of Hinduism which teach that the many forms of God, i.e., Vishnu, Shiva, or Devi merely represent aspects of a single or underlying divine power or Brahman (see articles on Nirguna Brahman and Saguna Brahman). Claims that Hinduism never taught polytheism [1], are correct if we read the major texts of Hinduism such as the Vedas,Upanishads and Gita.
Certain sects of Hinduism, the Smarta view, is an inclusive monotheistic view of monotheism, as discussed later. This Smarta view dominates the view of Hinduism in the West and has confused all Hindus to be seemingly polytheistic. The Smarta division is the only branch of Hinduism that strictly follows this view. After all, Swami Vivekananda, a follower of Ramakrishna, along with many others, who brought Hindu beliefs to the West, were all Smarta in belief. Only a Smartist would have no problem worshiping Shiva or Vishnu together as he views the different aspects of God as leading to the same One God. God, thus, according to Smarta theology, can have a multitude of aspects and thus, according to this belief, they hold that Vishnu and Shiva are one and the same God. The Smarta theologians have cited many references to support this view. For example, they interpret verses in both the Shri Rudram, the most sacred mantra in Shaivism, and the Vishnu sahasranama, one of the most sacred prayers in Vaishnavism, to show this belief. By contrast, a Vaishnavite considers Vishnu as the only one true God, worthy of worship and other worship of other forms as subordinate or simply incorrect.
Monotheism can be divided into different types on the basis of its attitude towards polytheism: inclusive monotheism claims that all polytheistic deities are just different names for the single monotheistic God; Smartism, a denomination of Hinduism, follows this belief and holds that God is one but has different aspects and can be called by different names (this belief dominate the view of Hinduism in the West); exclusive monotheism, on the other hand, claims that these deities are false and distinct from the one God, either invented, demonic, or simply incorrect, as Vaishnavism, a denomination of Hinduism, regards the worship of anyone other than Vishnu. Exclusive monotheism is a well-known tenet in the beliefs of the Abrahamic religions. In Hinduism, views are broad and range from monism, dualism, pantheism, panentheism, alternatively called monistic theism by some scholars, and strict monotheism, but are not polytheistic as outsiders perceive the religion to be. Hinduism has often been confused to be polytheistic as many of Hinduism's adherents, i.e., Smartas, who follow Advaita philsophy, are monists, and view multiple manifestations of the one God or source of being. Hindu monists see one unity, with the personal Gods, different aspects of only One Supreme Being, like a single beam of light separated into colours by a prism, and are valid to worship. Some of the Hindu aspects of God include Devi, Vishnu, Ganesh, and Siva. It is the Smarta view that dominates the view of Hinduism in the West. After all, Swami Vivekananda, a follower of Ramakrishna, along with many others, who brought Hindu beliefs to the West, were all Smarta in belief. Other denominations of Hinduism, as described later, don't hold this belief strictly and more closely adhere to a Western perception of what a monotheistic faith is. Additionally, like Judeo-Christian traditions which believe in angels, Hindus also believe in less powerful entities, such as devas.
Contemporary Hinduism is now divided into four major divisions, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaktism, and Smartism. Just as Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in one God but differ in their conceptions of him, Hindus all believe in one God but differ in their conceptions. The two primary form of differences are between the two monotheistic religions of Vaishnavism which conceives God as Vishnu and Shaivism, which conceives God as Shiva. Other aspects of God are in fact aspects of Vishnu or Shiva; see Smartism for more information. Only a Smartist would have no problem worshiping Shiva or Vishnu together as he views the different aspects of God as leading to the same One God. It is the Smarta view that dominates the view of Hinduism in the West. By contrast, a Vaishnavite considers Vishnu as the one true God, worthy of worship and other forms as subordinate. See for example, an illustration of the Vaishnavite view of Vishnu as the one true God, at this link. Accordingly, many Vaishnavites, for example, believe that only Vishnu can grant the ultimate aim for mankind, moksha. See for example, this link. Similarly, many Shaivites also hold similar beliefs, as illustrated at at this link and at this link."

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Dear Scott:

Are you trying to tell us that the Mahdi was different than the 12th Imam? Are these two different persons?

Regards
Imran

The Mahd'i is NOT the physical return of the 12th Imam. That's what I was saying.

Regards,
Scott