The Bab

[Postmaster]

There's one thing I just can't accept about the afterlife in the Baha'i view of it and that’s this idea of spiritual progression. I don't know if it’s a case of what I have been told since I was a child and it’s something I've grown to be comfortable with but I believe in heaven (paradise) the one stop place after death. I don't like the idea of multiple heavens or realms or carrying on with some spiritual growth. I could be wrong.

In my Christian orthodoxy faith we have children as young as 12 who were granted saint hood and the circumstances as to how they get it is remarkable. Is there such thing as spiritual progression? Or is it simply all about acceptance. Sometimes I think that we live in an age of limited awareness of morality. The ancients didn't have technology to occupy there minds, they probably thought about theology alot more then we do and there conclusions might have seeped into mysticism. Ideas we can’t grasp especially in a culture where we need everything to be solid in fact.

[arthra]

In my Christian orthodoxy faith we have children as young as 12 who were granted saint hood and the circumstances as to how they get it is remarkable.

My reply:

In Baha'i Faith there was a youth named Badi who personally delivered a Tablet of Baha'u'llah to the Shah. He was seventeen years of age when he did this... After presented the Tablet to the Shah he was tortured and executed....

There's a photo of him extant showing him in chains:

http://bci.org/reno/images/badi2.jpg

His story can be found at

http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?...badi_khurasani

Badi is regarded as a martyr but there were many others...

- Art

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

It seems to me the Baha'i awareness website has been suspended by the hosting company. Wonder why.

Hi:
I am back - there was a problem which got sorted out so the web site is back and running.

I read some of the threads of this topic and while it has been silent for some time, I would like to put forth this question:

While the Judiac, Christian and Islamic viewpoints about life after death are very clear - there is a physical resurrection with a real heaven and hell, the Bahai Faith denies physical resurrection.

If I limit myself to Islam (for 2 reasons, it is the last of the divine religions before the Bahai Faith and also because I understand it best), how does one reconcile the vast collection of verses and traditions to the Bahai Viewpoint?

Regards,

[Postmaster]

I'll answer your questions with an other question. How pointless did the carriage become after the invention of the car? And do you think at the time of the carriage anyone thought there was a much better transportation invention coming along? Or would they have laughed at the idea?

How beneficial has the car been to civilisation. Being able to transport products, goods, people so fast, I wonder how backwards we would have been without the car.

And before we start talking about how were destroying the earth with global warming, I just want to point out that everything carries side effects, even religion, medicine, politics, just living. It's only progress when the good out weighs the bad. Human nature has always been having to rectify side effects.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Hi:
I am back - there was a problem which got sorted out so the web site is back and running.

I read some of the threads of this topic and while it has been silent for some time, I would like to put forth this question:

While the Judiac, Christian and Islamic viewpoints about life after death are very clear - there is a physical resurrection with a real heaven and hell, the Bahai Faith denies physical resurrection.

If I limit myself to Islam (for 2 reasons, it is the last of the divine religions before the Bahai Faith and also because I understand it best), how does one reconcile the vast collection of verses and traditions to the Bahai Viewpoint?

Regards,

That's not a bad question. You know my opinion of traditions إشاعة دفتر (Kitab`i Hearsay) why not limit ourselves to the verses. Be aware that lots of Christians do NOT believe in one mass day of resurrection. And Judaic practices are also widely varying. Generally speaking Baha`i's believe that there have been many "Resurrection Days" in the past and there will be more in the future. The Manifestation of God comes and His coming is the day of rebirth when all creation is made new. He judges the quick and the dead, in a spiritual sense, and it is His words and His teachings which provide the energy for the new creation. Thus the "Ressurection Day" is a metaphoric presentation of the choice that faces all those who live in the advent of a New Revelation.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

That's not a bad question. You know my opinion of traditions إشاعة دفتر (Kitab`i Hearsay) why not limit ourselves to the verses. Be aware that lots of Christians do NOT believe in one mass day of resurrection. And Judaic practices are also widely varying. Generally speaking Baha`i's believe that there have been many "Resurrection Days" in the past and there will be more in the future. The Manifestation of God comes and His coming is the day of rebirth when all creation is made new. He judges the quick and the dead, in a spiritual sense, and it is His words and His teachings which provide the energy for the new creation. Thus the "Ressurection Day" is a metaphoric presentation of the choice that faces all those who live in the advent of a New Revelation.

Regards,
Scott

Traditions are important to understand the verses. Without them, a person can interpret and / or misinterpret the verses as he likes.

I can give you the example of Namaz - The Quran claims that every knowledge is encompassed in it. Yet it is not clear about 2 units of dawn prayers, 4 units of noon prayer and so on till one read the traditions narrated about the actions of the prophet.

Secondly, perhaps even a better example - the Bahais believe in the succession of Imam Ali after the Prophet of Islam - yet the name of Ali is not mentioned in the Quran - there are verses in the Quran whose interpretation is explained in the traditions of the prophet that Imam Ali succeeded the Prophet of Islam.

Sure, if any tradition is not acceptable to you on the topic, you may dismiss it outlining the reasons for the same. Sure, if you can provide any tradition countering the point I have made, we can consider it. Lastly, our most recent discussion revolved around a tradition which was brought forth by yourself. So its not really that you dont accept traditions.

Anyway, we will begin with the verses. Traditions will only support the viewpoint which is being considered. There are probably more than 10,000 (a very conservative figure) of traditions about the Day of Judgement - surely not all of them will be heresay.

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

Okay verses!

"XXVIII. Happy is the man who will arise to serve My Cause, and glorify My beauteous Name. Take hold of My Book with the power of My might, and cleave tenaciously to whatsoever commandment thy Lord, the Ordainer, the All-Wise, hath prescribed therein. Behold, O Muhammad, how the sayings and doings of the followers of Shi'ih Islam have dulled the joy and fervor of its early days, and tarnished the pristine brilliancy of its light. In its primitive days, whilst they still adhered to the precepts associated with the name of their Prophet, the Lord of mankind, their career was marked by an unbroken chain of victories and triumphs. As they gradually strayed from the path of their Ideal Leader and Master, as they turned away from the Light of God and corrupted the principle of His Divine unity, and as they increasingly centered their attention upon them who were only the revealers of the potency of His Word, their power was turned into weakness, their glory into shame, their courage into fear. Thou dost witness to what a pass they have come. Behold, how they have joined partners with Him Who is the Focal-Point of Divine unity. Behold how their evil doings have hindered them from recognizing, in the Day of Resurrection, the Word of Truth, exalted be His glory. We cherish the hope that this people will henceforth shield themselves from vain hopes and idle fancies, and will attain to a true understanding of the meaning of Divine unity."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 69)

"This is the Day wherein the earth hath told out her tidings and hath laid bare her treasures; when the oceans have brought forth their pearls and the divine Lote-Tree its fruit; when the Sun hath shed its radiance and the Moons have diffused their lights, and the Heavens have revealed their stars, and the Hour its signs, and the Resurrection its dreadful majesty; when the pens have unloosed their outpourings and the spirits have laid bare their mysteries."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 107)

"Thou hast asked regarding the subject of the return. Know thou that the end is like unto the beginning. Even as thou dost consider the beginning, similarly shouldst thou consider the end, and be of them that truly perceive. Nay, rather consider the beginning as the end itself, and so conversely, that thou mayest acquire a clear perception. Know thou moreover that every created thing is continually brought forth and returned at the bidding of thy Lord, the God of power and might.
As to the Return, as God hath purposed in His sacred and exalted Tablets wherein He hath made this theme known unto His servants; by this is meant the return of all created things in the Day of Resurrection, and this is indeed the essence of the Return as thou hast witnessed in God's own days and thou art of them that testify to this truth.
Verily God is fully capable of causing all names to appear in one name, and all souls in one soul. Surely powerful and mighty is He. And this Return is realized at His behest in whatever form He willeth. Indeed He is the One Who doeth and ordaineth all things. Moreover, thou shouldst not perceive the fulfilment of the Return and the Resurrection 184 save in the Word of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. For instance, were He to take a handful of earth and declare it to be the One Whom ye have been following in the past, it would undoubtedly be just and true, even as His real Person, and to none is given the right to question His authority. He doeth what He willeth and ordaineth whatsoever He pleaseth. Moreover, in this station take thou heed not to turn thy gaze unto limitations and allusions, but rather unto that whereby the Revelation itself hath been fulfilled and be of them that are discerning. Thus do We explain for thee in a lucid and explicit language that thou mayest comprehend that which thou didst seek from thine ancient Lord.
Consider thou the Day of Resurrection. Were God to pronounce the lowliest of creatures among the faithful to be the First One to believe in the Bayan, thou shouldst have no misgivings about it and must be of them that truly believe. In this station look not upon human limitations and names but rather upon that whereby the rank of the First One to believe is vindicated, which is faith in God, and recognition of His Being and assurance in the fulfilment of His irresistible and binding command."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 183)

"I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: 'Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayan in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 7)

"EXTRACTS FROM A TABLET CONTAINING WORDS ADDRESSED TO THE SHERIF OF MECCA
O SHERIF!... All thy life thou hast accorded worship unto Us, but when We manifested Ourself unto thee, thou didst desist from bearing witness unto Our Remembrance, and from affirming that He is indeed the Most Exalted, the Sovereign Truth, the All-Glorious. Thus hath Thy Lord put thee to proof in the Day of Resurrection. Verily He is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 29)

"DO men imagine that We are far distant from the people of the world? Nay, the day We cause them to be assailed 47 by the pangs of death [1] they shall, upon the plain of Resurrection, behold how the Lord of Mercy and His Remembrance were near. Thereupon they shall exclaim: 'Would that we had followed the path of the Bab! Would that we had sought refuge only with Him, and not with men of perversity and error! For verily the Remembrance of God appeared before us,[2] behind us, and on all sides, yet we were, in very truth, shut out as by a veil from Him.' Chapter VII."
[1 cf. Qur'án 68:42 ]
[2 cf. ibid. 7:63, 69]
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 46)

And most importantly from the Bab:
"THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 78)

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Okay verses!

"XXVIII. Happy is the man who will arise to serve My Cause, and glorify My beauteous Name. Take hold of My Book with the power of My might, and cleave tenaciously to whatsoever commandment thy Lord, the Ordainer, the All-Wise, hath prescribed therein. Behold, O Muhammad, how the sayings and doings of the followers of Shi'ih Islam have dulled the joy and fervor of its early days, and tarnished the pristine brilliancy of its light. In its primitive days, whilst they still adhered to the precepts associated with the name of their Prophet, the Lord of mankind, their career was marked by an unbroken chain of victories and triumphs. As they gradually strayed from the path of their Ideal Leader and Master, as they turned away from the Light of God and corrupted the principle of His Divine unity, and as they increasingly centered their attention upon them who were only the revealers of the potency of His Word, their power was turned into weakness, their glory into shame, their courage into fear. Thou dost witness to what a pass they have come. Behold, how they have joined partners with Him Who is the Focal-Point of Divine unity. Behold how their evil doings have hindered them from recognizing, in the Day of Resurrection, the Word of Truth, exalted be His glory. We cherish the hope that this people will henceforth shield themselves from vain hopes and idle fancies, and will attain to a true understanding of the meaning of Divine unity."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 69)

"This is the Day wherein the earth hath told out her tidings and hath laid bare her treasures; when the oceans have brought forth their pearls and the divine Lote-Tree its fruit; when the Sun hath shed its radiance and the Moons have diffused their lights, and the Heavens have revealed their stars, and the Hour its signs, and the Resurrection its dreadful majesty; when the pens have unloosed their outpourings and the spirits have laid bare their mysteries."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 107)

"Thou hast asked regarding the subject of the return. Know thou that the end is like unto the beginning. Even as thou dost consider the beginning, similarly shouldst thou consider the end, and be of them that truly perceive. Nay, rather consider the beginning as the end itself, and so conversely, that thou mayest acquire a clear perception. Know thou moreover that every created thing is continually brought forth and returned at the bidding of thy Lord, the God of power and might.
As to the Return, as God hath purposed in His sacred and exalted Tablets wherein He hath made this theme known unto His servants; by this is meant the return of all created things in the Day of Resurrection, and this is indeed the essence of the Return as thou hast witnessed in God's own days and thou art of them that testify to this truth.
Verily God is fully capable of causing all names to appear in one name, and all souls in one soul. Surely powerful and mighty is He. And this Return is realized at His behest in whatever form He willeth. Indeed He is the One Who doeth and ordaineth all things. Moreover, thou shouldst not perceive the fulfilment of the Return and the Resurrection 184 save in the Word of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. For instance, were He to take a handful of earth and declare it to be the One Whom ye have been following in the past, it would undoubtedly be just and true, even as His real Person, and to none is given the right to question His authority. He doeth what He willeth and ordaineth whatsoever He pleaseth. Moreover, in this station take thou heed not to turn thy gaze unto limitations and allusions, but rather unto that whereby the Revelation itself hath been fulfilled and be of them that are discerning. Thus do We explain for thee in a lucid and explicit language that thou mayest comprehend that which thou didst seek from thine ancient Lord.
Consider thou the Day of Resurrection. Were God to pronounce the lowliest of creatures among the faithful to be the First One to believe in the Bayan, thou shouldst have no misgivings about it and must be of them that truly believe. In this station look not upon human limitations and names but rather upon that whereby the rank of the First One to believe is vindicated, which is faith in God, and recognition of His Being and assurance in the fulfilment of His irresistible and binding command."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 183)

"I, indeed, beg to address Him Whom God shall make manifest, by Thy leave in these words: 'Shouldst Thou dismiss the entire company of the followers of the Bayan in the Day of the Latter Resurrection by a mere sign of Thy finger even while still a suckling babe, Thou wouldst indeed be praised in Thy indication. And though no doubt is there about it, do Thou grant a respite of nineteen years as a token of Thy favour so that those who have embraced this Cause may be graciously rewarded by Thee."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 7)

"EXTRACTS FROM A TABLET CONTAINING WORDS ADDRESSED TO THE SHERIF OF MECCA
O SHERIF!... All thy life thou hast accorded worship unto Us, but when We manifested Ourself unto thee, thou didst desist from bearing witness unto Our Remembrance, and from affirming that He is indeed the Most Exalted, the Sovereign Truth, the All-Glorious. Thus hath Thy Lord put thee to proof in the Day of Resurrection. Verily He is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 29)

"DO men imagine that We are far distant from the people of the world? Nay, the day We cause them to be assailed 47 by the pangs of death [1] they shall, upon the plain of Resurrection, behold how the Lord of Mercy and His Remembrance were near. Thereupon they shall exclaim: 'Would that we had followed the path of the Bab! Would that we had sought refuge only with Him, and not with men of perversity and error! For verily the Remembrance of God appeared before us,[2] behind us, and on all sides, yet we were, in very truth, shut out as by a veil from Him.' Chapter VII."
[1 cf. Qur'án 68:42 ]
[2 cf. ibid. 7:63, 69]
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 46)

And most importantly from the Bab:
"THE Day of Resurrection is a day on which the sun riseth and setteth like unto any other day. How oft hath the Day of Resurrection dawned, and the people of the land where it occurred did not learn of the event. Had they heard, they would not have believed, and thus they were not told!"
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 78)

Regards,
Scott

Sorry Scott, if I was not able to make myself clear - I meant verses from the Quran - and you can take the cake - you have brought what are effectively Bahai traditions! And you wanted me to avoid Islamic traditions. I had to write an entire post about that!!

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Sorry Scott, if I was not able to make myself clear - I meant verses from the Quran - and you can take the cake - you have brought what are effectively Bahai traditions! And you wanted me to avoid Islamic traditions. I had to write an entire post about that!!

Regards,

I gave you no traditions whatsoever, Imran. They're all verses and this isn't the board to restrict ourselves to the Qur'an.

Regards,
Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I gave you no traditions whatsoever, Imran. They're all verses and this isn't the board to restrict ourselves to the Qur'an.
Regards,
Scott

My comments:

1. Every word quoted by you is a "verse". But every "tradition" I bring is a tradition and vulnerable to forgery or hearsay. Even when you bring "verses" from "Selected Writings of the Bab". In that sense, every "tradition" from the prophet would be classified as a "verse" as the Quran says "he does not speak of his own desire, it is naught, but a revelation revealed upon him".

2. The question was that how can one reconcile the Muslim viewpoint of a physical resurrection with the Bahai viewpoint of a spiritual one. The Bahais claim that they accept Mohammed, yet, veer away from explaining the tangential views of Prophet Mohammed and Bahaullah. And believe me the views are tangential. Fire is fire - one that burns and not something else. Allah promises a fire of Hell which will be fuelled by stones and men. But Bahaullah says, there is no fire. No paradise, no streams of cool refreshing water, no houries, no gardens no nothing. In effect, he is clearly denying the words of Prophet Mohammed who described each of these elements very very clearly and in minute detail. And yes, the Imams spoke on the same lines as the Prophet. No contradiction whatsoever.

So I hope the question is a lot clearer. When one is comparing views, we need to evaluate both views. I already know what is being said about the Bahai Faith and also what has been discussed in Islam. That is why my question was about reconciling the views. And thence the need for verses of the Quran to be evaluated and backed by traditions of the Prophet and the Imams.

Lastly, I never asked to be restricted by Quranic verses. You seem to have taken that conclusion all by yourself.

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

From:Baha'i News -- Heaven or Hell

"The Baha'i believes that death is also a transition into another realm. There is no physical state for the soul, which progresses eternally after death. After death the soul grows according to God's mercy, though not all souls start in the same position. The state you start out with is determined by the way you lived your life.

Baha'is believe that heaven is a state of being close to God. Hell on the other hand is not being close to God, resulting in suffering and stress from this deprivation.
THE SOUL IS NOT TANGIBLE
According to Ainsley Henriques, Director, United Congregation of Israelites, the Jews believe in life after death and resurrection of the spirit. Judaism however refuses the traditional concept of heaven and hell.
Life has been so rough for Jews, stated Wallace Campbell, another United Congregation of Israelites Director, that they had little time to worry about the afterlife, but rather focused on doing God's duties on earth.
Like, Moses Maimonides, the 12th century philosopher, who maintains that only the immature are motivated by the hopes of reward and fear of punishment, the reward for virtuous living was the good life itself. Rather than speculate on matters of after life, he urged that we should attend to our duties before God. For Mr. Campbell, a lack of resurrection is the hell. A soul delighting in a well-lived life, is in heaven; a soul in remorse is in hell.
Muslims believe that at death, the physical body is finished while the spirit remains, moulded by the individual's deeds - good or bad. The spirit is the seed from which the higher form of life grows within man, higher than physical life. Heaven and hell are not actual places in the universe, but conditions of the spirit resulting from these deeds.
The feeling of bliss and contentment is the heaven of one's heart while guilt, shame and greed felt by an evil doer, is the hell of one's heart. Heaven or hell developed in the heart, unfolds at death and becomes the world in which the individual lives with the spiritual body. Dismissing the concept of reincarnation, Islam teaches that each person is born with a pure soul, free of any burdens from the past life. As such, the best person in God's eyes is the one who acquits himself best in the conditions he meets."

"Thou hast, moreover, asked Me concerning the state of the soul after its separation from the body. Know thou, of a truth, that if the soul of man hath walked in the ways of God, it will, assuredly, return and be gathered to the glory of the Beloved. By the righteousness of God! It shall attain a station such as no pen can depict, or tongue describe. The soul that hath remained faithful to the Cause of God, and stood unwaveringly firm in His Path shall, after his ascension, be possessed of such power that all the worlds which the Almighty hath created can benefit through him. Such a soul provideth, at the bidding of the Ideal King and Divine Educator, the pure leaven that leaveneth the world of being, and furnisheth the power through which the arts and wonders of the world are made manifest. Consider how meal needeth leaven to be leavened with. Those souls that are the symbols of detachment are the leaven of the world. Meditate on this, and be of the thankful.
In several of Our Tablets We have referred to this theme, and have set forth the various stages in the development of the soul. Verily I say, the human soul is exalted above all egress and regress. It is still, and yet it soareth; it moveth, and yet it is still. It is, in 162 itself, a testimony that beareth witness to the existence of a world that is contingent, as well as to the reality of a world that hath neither beginning nor end. Behold how the dream thou hast dreamed is, after the lapse of many years, re-enacted before thine eyes. Consider how strange is the mystery of the world that appeareth to thee in thy dream. Ponder in thine heart upon the unsearchable wisdom of God, and meditate on its manifold revelations....
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 161)

If a person worships God solely because He hopes for heaven is that fit worship for God? If a person worships God solely because he fears punishment is that fit worship for God?

The answer is no in both cases. If one is secure in one's love of God, one trusts God to do what is best. After all, "God doeth as he willeth and none can say Him nay."

The 'Houri' is actually very important in the Baha`i Faith. It is as the Maid of Heaven that the Revelation of God came to Baha`u'llah. It's a symbol for the knowledge of God,like the Christian concept of Sophia.

In speaking of Shi'ih tradition let's not forget the Mathnavi:
"O God, Thy grace is the proper object of our desire;
To couple others with Thee is not proper.
Nothing is bitterer than severance from Thee,
Without Thy shelter there is naught but perplexity.
Our worldly goods rob us of our heavenly goods,
Our body rends the garment of our soul.
Our hands, as it were, prey on our feet;
Without reliance on Thee how can we live?
And if the soul escapes these great perils,
It is made captive as a victim of misfortunes and fears,
Inasmuch as when the soul lacks union with the Beloved,
It abides forever blind and darkened by itself."
(Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 1)

Regards,
Scott

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

The question was that how can one reconcile the Muslim viewpoint of a physical resurrection with the Bahai viewpoint of a spiritual one.

Very simple:

By understanding that in times past when people were less sophisticated and knowledge less general, concepts were often explained in simpler terms than can be used today.

This is in no way a put-down of earlier civilizations and cultures, just a recognition of the fact that these things grow and evolve over time, as do concepts.

No different from telling a two-year-old "don't enter the street!" and a five-year-old "look both ways before crossing."

Peace,

Bruce

[Mick]

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

how does one reconcile the vast collection of verses and traditions to the Bahai Viewpoint?

Regards,

I would suggest you ask the millions of Muslims that have become followers of the teachings of The Bab and Baha'u'llah. Some of them still live, in spite of the pogroms held against them. Ask them how they reconciled the differences. But if you are truly interested in a cognizant answer, I would suggest you ask the question and then shut-up and take notes. If you are not swept away with their spiritual breadth, then I will still pray for your recognition of the One you long for.

Mick

[arthra]

The question was that how can one reconcile the Muslim viewpoint of a physical resurrection with the Bahai viewpoint of a spiritual one...

-----------------------------------

Actually it's very easy to do this... Heaven is nearness to God and His Will. The verses describing heaven are allegorical... What better description of heaven for a desert people is there than one having rivers, oases and fruits with youths to serve you.. These are meant to express that Heaven is desirable. People think in concrete terms and so images of heaven having golden streets and trees that produce year round and no darkness are symbols of a spiritual condition.

The resurrection is also a spiritual one..of what possible use would there be if by some means your physical body could be brought back to life and your soul were still in darkness? So the spiritual condition of the soul is what is important...not your physical body after you die.

From the Persian Bayan:

what is meant by the Day of Resurrection is this, that from the time of the appearance of Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality, at whatever period and under whatever name, until the moment of His disappearance, is the Day of Resurrection.
For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus --may peace be upon Him--till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shone forth through the appearance of that divine Reality, Who rewarded by His Word everyone who believed in Moses, and punished by His Word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God's Testimony for that Day was that which He had solemnly affirmed in the Gospel. And from the inception of the Revelation of the Apostle of God--may the blessings of God be upon Him-- till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Jesus-- peace be upon Him--wherein the Tree of divine Reality appeared in the person of Muhammad, rewarding by His Word everyone who was a believer in Jesus, and punishing by His Word everyone who was not a believer in Him. And from the moment when the Tree of the Bayán appeared until it disappeareth is the Resurrection of the Apostle of God, as is divinely foretold in the Qur'án; the beginning of which was when two hours and eleven minutes had passed on the eve of the fifth of Jamádiyu'l-Avval, 1260 A.H.,[22 May 1844] which is the year 1270 of the Declaration of the Mission of Muhammad. This was the beginning of the Day of Resurrection of the Qur'án, and until the disappearance of the Tree of divine Reality is the Resurrection of the Qur'án.

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by arthra

The question was that how can one reconcile the Muslim viewpoint of a physical resurrection with the Bahai viewpoint of a spiritual one...

-----------------------------------

Actually it's very easy to do this... Heaven is nearness to God and His Will. The verses describing heaven are allegorical... What better description of heaven for a desert people is there than one having rivers, oases and fruits with youths to serve you.. These are meant to express that Heaven is desirable. People think in concrete terms and so images of heaven having golden streets and trees that produce year round and no darkness are symbols of a spiritual condition.

The resurrection is also a spiritual one..of what possible use would there be if by some means your physical body could be brought back to life and your soul were still in darkness? So the spiritual condition of the soul is what is important...not your physical body after you die.

From the Persian Bayan:

what is meant by the Day of Resurrection is this, that from the time of the appearance of Him Who is the Tree of divine Reality, at whatever period and under whatever name, until the moment of His disappearance, is the Day of Resurrection.
For example, from the inception of the mission of Jesus --may peace be upon Him--till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Moses. For during that period the Revelation of God shone forth through the appearance of that divine Reality, Who rewarded by His Word everyone who believed in Moses, and punished by His Word everyone who did not believe; inasmuch as God's Testimony for that Day was that which He had solemnly affirmed in the Gospel. And from the inception of the Revelation of the Apostle of God--may the blessings of God be upon Him-- till the day of His ascension was the Resurrection of Jesus-- peace be upon Him--wherein the Tree of divine Reality appeared in the person of Muhammad, rewarding by His Word everyone who was a believer in Jesus, and punishing by His Word everyone who was not a believer in Him. And from the moment when the Tree of the Bayán appeared until it disappeareth is the Resurrection of the Apostle of God, as is divinely foretold in the Qur'án; the beginning of which was when two hours and eleven minutes had passed on the eve of the fifth of Jamádiyu'l-Avval, 1260 A.H.,[22 May 1844] which is the year 1270 of the Declaration of the Mission of Muhammad. This was the beginning of the Day of Resurrection of the Qur'án, and until the disappearance of the Tree of divine Reality is the Resurrection of the Qur'án.

You are telling what I already know. You forget that I have read Bahai books too. I am glad you have clarified it here on the forum so that ordinary Muslims like myself know that:

1. There is no corelation between the Islamic viewpoint of the Day of Judgement and the Bahai concept of the same. Islam talks about a physical afterlife in which the body and the soul are integral parts. The Bahais discount the body completely. This view is opposite to that of the Quran.

2. Islam believes in an everlasting afterlife which depending on one's action - each and very action - from the major to the minor - including intentions, I will be questioned and then taken to Heaven and Hell which are physical. Someone in the post mentioned that the Houri is the Handmaiden of God. Well, if that is the case then she will be extremely busy on th Day of Judgement because our Prophet told us that every person in Heaven will get a Houri and if there is only one, then either the Prophet was fooling us or Bahaullah is.

Take the example of music - the prophet told us that it is forbidden, that the angels of mercy would not enter the house of the person who layed music and that if one did hear music, then on the Day of Judgement, hot lava will be made to pour into his ears. Try interpreting that spiritually if you can. Like I said, I dont listen to music and you probably do. So the views between Hazrat Mohammed and Bahaullah are tangential.

3. In the Day of Judgement of Islam, the reward for each and every action is specified. And the punishment for each and every action is specified. very clearly. Very minutely. One that makes us fear Allah. One that makes us aspire for Heaven. The Day of Judgement of the Bahais is fairly superficial - close or far from Allah.

Regards,