The Bab

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Greetings!

very simple:

By understanding that in times past when people were less sophisticated and knowledge less general, concepts were often explained in simpler terms than can be used today.

This is in no way a put-down of earlier civilizations and cultures, just a recognition of the fact that these things grow and evolve over time, as do concepts.

No different from telling a two-year-old "don't enter the street!" and a five-year-old "look both ways before crossing."

Peace,

Bruce

Not really as simple as you make it out to be.

It is no coincidence that that the concept of the Day of Judgement is so ingrained in Islam and in the Muslim psyche. The teachings of the prophet are very detailed when it comes to the day of judgement. They are not superficial at all.

Regards,

[Popeyesays]

Imran,

I am having trouble understanding your motivation. It seems that you are concerned more with the rewards of afterlife than you are with being a servant of God. If the reason you submit to God is simply because in return you get a comfortable and pleasant afterlife it seems to me you are making bargains with God. Those who bargain together, after all are partners in the bargain and therefore you are making yourself a partner with God.

The Bab states this clearly:
"WORSHIP thou God in such wise that if thy worship lead thee to the fire, no alteration in thine adoration would be produced, and so likewise if thy recompense should be paradise. Thus and thus alone should be the worship which befitteth the one True God. Shouldst thou worship Him because of fear, this would be unseemly in the sanctified Court of His presence, and could not be regarded as an act by thee dedicated to the Oneness of His Being. Or if thy gaze should be on paradise, and thou shouldst worship Him while cherishing such a hope, thou wouldst make God's creation a partner with Him, notwithstanding the fact that paradise is desired by men.
Fire and paradise both bow down and prostrate themselves before God. That which is worthy of His Essence is to worship Him for His sake, without fear of fire, or hope of paradise.
Although when true worship is offered, the worshipper is delivered from the fire, and entereth the paradise of God's good-pleasure, yet such should not be the motive of his act. However, God's favour and grace ever flow in accordance with the exigencies of His inscrutable wisdom."
(The Bab, Selections from the Writings of the Bab, p. 77)

Regards,
Scott

[BruceDLimber]

Hello!

Originally Posted by imranshaykh

Take the example of music - the prophet told us that it is forbidden.

I would be most interested in seeing where in the Qur'an this is!

NOT the Hadith: the Qur'an.

(And if you can't produce such a statement, please feel free to retract the statement.)

Peace,

Bruce

[Popeyesays]

"We have heard these melodies in Paradise;
Though earth and water have cast their veil upon us,
We retain faint reminiscences of those heavenly songs.
But while we are thus shrouded by gross earthly veils,
How can the tones of the dancing spheres reach us?
Hence it is that listening to music is lovers' food,
Because it recalls to them their primal union with God."
(Mathnavi of Rumi (E.H. Whinfield tr), The Masnavi Vol 4)

Regards,
Scott

[Mick]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

Hello!



I would be most interested in seeing where in the Qur'an this is!

NOT the Hadith: the Qur'an.

(And if you can't produce such a statement, please feel free to retract the statement.)

Peace,

Bruce

Bruce,

I put the word "music" in the search function for Ocean and the Quran. There was not one entry recorded. I too am curious where one would find it in the Quran.

Mick

[arthra]

Imran if you have read Baha'i books then you already know what we know...

We're not really here on this forum to convert you that we would leave to the Almighty...

When we are asked about Heaven and Hell we're also very much aware that there are Muslims such as yourself and Christians that believe in a very physical and literal after-life.

When we read the Bible or Qur'an we take the spiritual interpretation rather than the literalist one. And you already should know that!

- Art

[arthra]

I'm sure there's probably a Hadith or two that supports not using Musical instruments..but really that's not what this Forum should be about in my opinion..

Yes some Muslims regard Music with disdain...

The Baha'i view on music was articulated well by Abdul-Baha:

O bird that singeth sweetly of the Abhá Beauty! In this new and wondrous dispensation the veils of superstition have been torn asunder and the prejudices of eastern peoples stand condemned. Among certain nations of the East, music was considered reprehensible, but in this new age the Manifest Light hath, in His holy Tablets, specifically proclaimed that music, sung or played, is spiritual food for soul and heart.
The musician's art is among those arts worthy of the highest praise, and it moveth the hearts of all who grieve. Wherefore, O thou Shahnáz,1 play and sing out the holy words of God with wondrous tones in the gatherings of the friends, that the listener may be freed from chains of care and sorrow, and his soul may leap for joy and humble itself in prayer to the realm of Glory.

There's a Muslim forum here Imran at CR and a Comparative Religion forum for this.

- Art

[arthra]

We have made it lawful for you to listen to music
and singing. Take heed, however, lest listening thereto
should cause you to overstep the bounds of propriety
and dignity. Let your joy be the joy born of My Most
Great Name, a Name that bringeth rapture to the
heart, and filleth with ecstasy the minds of all who have
drawn nigh unto God.

We, verily, have made music
as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may
be lifted up unto the realm on high; make it not,
therefore, as wings to self and passion. Truly, We are
loath to see you numbered with the foolish.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 38)

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by arthra

We have made it lawful for you to listen to music
and singing. Take heed, however, lest listening thereto
should cause you to overstep the bounds of propriety
and dignity. Let your joy be the joy born of My Most
Great Name, a Name that bringeth rapture to the
heart, and filleth with ecstasy the minds of all who have
drawn nigh unto God.

We, verily, have made music
as a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they may
be lifted up unto the realm on high; make it not,
therefore, as wings to self and passion. Truly, We are
loath to see you numbered with the foolish.

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 38)

Hi Art,

Just have to say that I think your new avatar is really nice!

[arthra]

Thanks Luna!

The UK artist was Lesley Cottle and you can see more of his work at

Baha'i Art Gallery - Paintings & Illustrations - Lesley A. Cottle

"My pictures are all drawn with pencil crayon and depict 'inner landscapes'. They tend to reflect my own spiritual journey and inspiration has come from various religious sources including the Baha'i Writings."

- Lesley A. Cottle

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Mick

Bruce,

I put the word "music" in the search function for Ocean and the Quran. There was not one entry recorded. I too am curious where one would find it in the Quran.

Mick

So am I!

And I suspect that yet again, my question challenging Imran's claim that Muhammad forbade music and asking for a citation in the Qur'an is going to be met with deafening silence. . . . :-(

The quote above are just a few, BTW, of a whole bunch in the Baha'i scriptures which 'Abdu'l-Baha spoke about music!

Best, :-)

Bruce

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

So am I!

And I suspect that yet again, my question challenging Imran's claim that Muhammad forbade music and asking for a citation in the Qur'an is going to be met with deafening silence. . . . :-(

The quote above are just a few, BTW, of a whole bunch in the Baha'i scriptures which 'Abdu'l-Baha spoke about music!

Best, :-)

Bruce

Not quite. Not a single question from the Bahais has been met with anything remotely close to deafening silence. You see unlike the Bahais who summarily dismiss information put up to them, I take my time to do my homework and then give a reply!

So here goes....

Imam Saqid (as) says: Allah has prohibited the manufacture of all such things that are exclusively used in Haraam ways; and things that only create evil like pipe, flute, chess and all types of instruments of gmabling, images, statues. The manufacture of all such articles is Haraam (forbidden). The Imam continued, Then even learning to play music and teaching it, to sing and play music, to be pai for these things or to be engrossed in these vices is haraam.

Imam Sadiq (as) reports from the Holy Prophet (pbuh): I prohibit for you dancing and paying flute, drums and tabla.
(Al Kafi)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) also said, Almighty Allah has sent me as a mercy to the worlds to guide the people. And he ordered me to eradicate the playing of flute and other musical instruments, all games of vice, idol worship and all practices of the days of ignorance
(Mustadrakul Wasael, chapter 79)

Imam Sadiq (as) while expressing the prohibition for music quotes the following verse: "Surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these shall be questioned about that?"
(Chapter of Bani Israel, verse 36)

Imam Ali Reza (as) says, To listed to a musical instrument is one of the greater sins
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

Angels do not enter the house that has wine, drum, tambourine and flute. Even the prayers of this ouse are unacceptable. They are depreived of the barakat.
(Wasaelush Shiah)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, "A person who posesses a sitar, on the Day of Qiyamat will be raised with a black face. His hands will be holding a sitar of fire. 70,000 angels with maces of fire will be hitting him on the face and the head. The singer will rise from his grave, blind, deaf and dumb. The adulterer will be similarlt raised. The player of flute will also be made to rise in this way as will be the drum player."
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

Imam Baqir (as) says, "Singing is that sin which has been promised the penalty of fire of Hell by Allah." The Imam quoted the above tradition under the following verse of Quran, "And of men is he who takes instead frivolous discourse to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledgee and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement."
(Chapter of Luqman, verse 6)

Imam Saidq (as) while quoting the following verse, "...and avoid false words" (Chapter of Hajj, verse 30) says - this verse refers to singing.

At another place, "And keep aloof from what is vain" (Chapter of Mo'menoon, verse 3), both Imam Sadiq (as) and Imam Reza (as) have said, vain words imply music and singing and the true worshippers of Allah refrain from these .
(Al Kafi)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, Molten lead shall be poured into the ears of one who listens to music intently.

These are but a few verses and traditions which emphasise the prophibition of music in Islam. They also go to highlight a couple of other important points:

1. Music is prohibited in Islam, yet the Bahais who claim that their religion is from the same Allah as that of Mohammed assert that music is permissible. This is one amongst many differences in the beliefs of the Muslims and the Bahais. Why would Allah prohibit something on one community and condemn it so harshly and then open the floodgates, permit it and also encourage it? Music is one such element.

2. The above verses and traditions emphasise how important it is to rely upon the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) to understand the Quran.

3. The traditions above assert the physical Day of Judgement - fire, molten lead, blacked face, angels hitting the singer with a mace - these are physical in nature.

I responded to this post because I thought it is important to clarify the Islamic position on music. I have however noticed that the Bahais have a tendency to pick up one element which is not related to the main issue (that of the Bab, his books, the tradition of Imam Ali etc) and start off on a topic which is incidental to the discussion (iran, music, tap dancing etc). This post itself is a product of that and I apologise for indulging your request for verses and traditions on music.

Let us revert back to the Bab. Let us focus on understanding how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam. I seem to be the recipient of deafening slience on this issue :-)

Regards
Imran

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

So am I!

And I suspect that yet again, my question challenging Imran's claim that Muhammad forbade music and asking for a citation in the Qur'an is going to be met with deafening silence. . . . :-(

The quote above are just a few, BTW, of a whole bunch in the Baha'i scriptures which 'Abdu'l-Baha spoke about music!

Best, :-)

Bruce

Not quite. Not a single question from the Bahais has been met with anything remotely close to deafening silence. You see unlike the Bahais who summarily dismiss information put up to them, I take my time to do my homework and then give a reply!

So here goes....

Imam Saqid (as) says: Allah has prohibited the manufacture of all such things that are exclusively used in Haraam ways; and things that only create evil like pipe, flute, chess and all types of instruments of gmabling, images, statues. The manufacture of all such articles is Haraam (forbidden). The Imam continued, Then even learning to play music and teaching it, to sing and play music, to be pai for these things or to be engrossed in these vices is haraam.

Imam Sadiq (as) reports from the Holy Prophet (pbuh): I prohibit for you dancing and paying flute, drums and tabla.
(Al Kafi)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) also said, Almighty Allah has sent me as a mercy to the worlds to guide the people. And he ordered me to eradicate the playing of flute and other musical instruments, all games of vice, idol worship and all practices of the days of ignorance
(Mustadrakul Wasael, chapter 79)

Imam Sadiq (as) while expressing the prohibition for music quotes the following verse: "Surely the hearing and the sight and the heart, all of these shall be questioned about that?"
(Chapter of Bani Israel, verse 36)

Imam Ali Reza (as) says, To listed to a musical instrument is one of the greater sins
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

Angels do not enter the house that has wine, drum, tambourine and flute. Even the prayers of this ouse are unacceptable. They are depreived of the barakat.
(Wasaelush Shiah)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, "A person who posesses a sitar, on the Day of Qiyamat will be raised with a black face. His hands will be holding a sitar of fire. 70,000 angels with maces of fire will be hitting him on the face and the head. The singer will rise from his grave, blind, deaf and dumb. The adulterer will be similarlt raised. The player of flute will also be made to rise in this way as will be the drum player."
(Mustadrakul Wasael)

Imam Baqir (as) says, "Singing is that sin which has been promised the penalty of fire of Hell by Allah." The Imam quoted the above tradition under the following verse of Quran, "And of men is he who takes instead frivolous discourse to lead astray from Allah's path without knowledgee and to take it for a mockery; these shall have an abasing chastisement."
(Chapter of Luqman, verse 6)

Imam Saidq (as) while quoting the following verse, "...and avoid false words" (Chapter of Hajj, verse 30) says - this verse refers to singing.

At another place, "And keep aloof from what is vain" (Chapter of Mo'menoon, verse 3), both Imam Sadiq (as) and Imam Reza (as) have said, vain words imply music and singing and the true worshippers of Allah refrain from these .
(Al Kafi)

The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said, Molten lead shall be poured into the ears of one who listens to music intently.

These are but a few verses and traditions which emphasise the prophibition of music in Islam. They also go to highlight a couple of other important points:

1. Music is prohibited in Islam, yet the Bahais who claim that their religion is from the same Allah as that of Mohammed assert that music is permissible. This is one amongst many differences in the beliefs of the Muslims and the Bahais. Why would Allah prohibit something on one community and condemn it so harshly and then open the floodgates, permit it and also encourage it? Music is one such element.

2. The above verses and traditions emphasise how important it is to rely upon the words of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and the Imams (as) to understand the Quran.

3. The traditions above assert the physical Day of Judgement - fire, molten lead, blacked face, angels hitting the singer with a mace - these are physical in nature.

I responded to this post because I thought it is important to clarify the Islamic position on music. I have however noticed that the Bahais have a tendency to pick up one element which is not related to the main issue (that of the Bab, his books, the tradition of Imam Ali etc) and start off on a topic which is incidental to the discussion (iran, music, tap dancing etc). This post itself is a product of that and I apologise for indulging your request for verses and traditions on music.

Let us revert back to the Bab. Let us focus on understanding how the Bab was the promised Mahdi of Islam. I seem to be the recipient of deafening slience on this issue :-)

Regards
Imran

[Popeyesays]

We have made it lawful for you to listen to musicand singing. Take heed, however, lest listening theretoshould cause you to overstep the bounds of proprietyand dignity. Let your joy be the joy born of My MostGreat Name, a Name that bringeth rapture to theheart, and filleth with ecstasy the minds of all who havedrawn nigh unto God. We, verily, have made musicas a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they maybe lifted up unto the realm on high; make it not,therefore, as wings to self and passion. Truly, We areloath to see you numbered with the foolish.(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 38)Which states a new law for a new Revelation. Baha`u'llah also made most substances 'clean' rather than 'unclean'. He changed the dietary laws again as was His right as an Apostle of God.The Bab wrote that if He WHom God Will Make Manifest should as a suckling bab indicate displeasure with the Bayan, it's Revealer or its followers it was within His right.It was within the right of Muhammad to change the social laws of Moses and the Injeel. It is within the rights of Baha`u'llah to change the social laws of Muhammad.That's what YOU don't understand.Music is no longer Haram under any circumstances UNLESS the listener makes it personally haram should he "overstep the bounds of proprietyand dignity."The Qur'an Itself says nothing about music being unlawful, as Bruce noted. All the rest is the invention of superstition by those who sought to lead the faith after Muhammad's passing.Regards,Scott

[imranshaykh]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

We have made it lawful for you to listen to musicand singing. Take heed, however, lest listening theretoshould cause you to overstep the bounds of proprietyand dignity. Let your joy be the joy born of My MostGreat Name, a Name that bringeth rapture to theheart, and filleth with ecstasy the minds of all who havedrawn nigh unto God. We, verily, have made musicas a ladder for your souls, a means whereby they maybe lifted up unto the realm on high; make it not,therefore, as wings to self and passion. Truly, We areloath to see you numbered with the foolish.(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 38)Which states a new law for a new Revelation. Baha`u'llah also made most substances 'clean' rather than 'unclean'. He changed the dietary laws again as was His right as an Apostle of God.The Bab wrote that if He WHom God Will Make Manifest should as a suckling bab indicate displeasure with the Bayan, it's Revealer or its followers it was within His right.It was within the right of Muhammad to change the social laws of Moses and the Injeel. It is within the rights of Baha`u'llah to change the social laws of Muhammad.That's what YOU don't understand.Music is no longer Haram under any circumstances UNLESS the listener makes it personally haram should he "overstep the bounds of proprietyand dignity."The Qur'an Itself says nothing about music being unlawful, as Bruce noted. All the rest is the invention of superstition by those who sought to lead the faith after Muhammad's passing.Regards,Scott

Read my earlier post again - At the outset, I had mentioned that the Bahais summarily dismiss information put to them. You have just reinforced my belief for that. I spent two days for research and it took you two minutes to dismiss it. By rejecting the traditions, you have shown how the Bahais believe that the Prophet lied, the Imams lied, that they encouraged superstition. I am happy to change my opinion provided you put forth some proof that the traditions I have quoted are false before dismissing them.

Sure, the prophets changed laws, but I am yet to see any law, I repeat any law, which was so condemned at some time, but was so encouraged in the next. Also, who is the one who will define the "bounds of propriety and dignity" - you?

I thank you for your "2-minute dismissal" of my research and the verses and the traditions. It is a great response for those who wish to understand the Bahai concept of independent investigation of truth. Seriously.

Finally, I end with the following verses of the Quran,

"Surely those who disbelieve, it being alike whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes and there is a great punishment for them.

And there are some people who say, We believe in Allah and the last day and they are not at all believers. They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not percieve.

There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied.

And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say, We are but peace makers. Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive.

And when it is said to them, Believe as the people believe, they say, Shall we believe as the fools believe? Now surely they themselves are the fools, but they do not know.
(Chapter of Baqarah, The Cow, verse 6-13)

Warm regards,
Imran