the Bible from a Jehovah's Witness perspective

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by aburaees

It's not so strange if you take Jesus' words to be a prophecy in this instance.

Why would we take it as prophecy? Here's the passage:

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 . Logos Research Systems, Inc.: Oak Harbor, WA



It's in the past tense.

Jesus is saying: Don't be surprised that the devils listen to you. I myself saw Satan fall from heaven. If the Master of the Kingdom of Darkness has fallen, it is to be believed that the servants or lesser devils obey you. I give you power over the enemy. Don't give it a thought. Just be glad your names are written in heaven.

[mee]

Jesus knows that after the birth of God’s Kingdom in 1914 at the time of the end, Satan and his demons are to be cast out of heaven. But now this casting out of unseen demons by mere humans serves as added assurance of that coming event. Therefore, Jesus speaks of the future fall of Satan from heaven as a certainty.
it is in a symbolic sense that the 70 are given authority to trample serpents and scorpions.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by mee

Jesus knows that after the birth of God’s Kingdom in 1914 at the time of the end, Satan and his demons are to be cast out of heaven. But now this casting out of unseen demons by mere humans serves as added assurance of that coming event. Therefore, Jesus speaks of the future fall of Satan from heaven as a certainty.
it is in a symbolic sense that the 70 are given authority to trample serpents and scorpions.

I guess the question for me is how do humans know that God's kingdom was born in 1914?

How do humans know that Satan was cast out of heaven in 1914?

What evidence do humans have that anything special happened in the spiritual realm in 1914?

Why did Jesus say "I beheld Satan fall" (past tense) if he meant ninteen centuries in the future?

Based on what I have seen of JWs, they tend to have some kind of logical answer for their beliefs. I can't quite figure out what the logic is behind these assertions. Can you help me out?

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I guess the question for me is how do humans know that God's kingdom was born in 1914?

How do humans know that Satan was cast out of heaven in 1914?

What evidence do humans have that anything special happened in the spiritual realm in 1914?

Why did Jesus say "I beheld Satan fall" (past tense) if he meant ninteen centuries in the future?

Based on what I have seen of JWs, they tend to have some kind of logical answer for their beliefs. I can't quite figure out what the logic is behind these assertions. Can you help me out?

I guess they wouldn't know but would believe considering the signs of the times in question. Why not 1918 when there was the Spanish flu pandemic? Killed more people than WWI and WWII combined.

Many prophecies are spoken in Past Tense - because the prophets are describing the visions they have seen of the future. Consider Revelations, mostly in Past tense but does anyone consider the events to have come to pass before Revelations was written on paper?

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by aburaees

I guess they wouldn't know but would believe considering the signs of the times in question.

Thanks. This explains things for me.

Consider Revelations, mostly in Past tense but does anyone consider the events to have come to pass before Revelations was written on paper?

Yes and no. Yes insofar as many people believe Revalation is a metaphorical description of things that were happening at the moment. It's writing would be considered to have significant Gnostic influence. No insofar that it does seem to be speaking of the end of the world, which had not yet occurred at the time.

Many people do not believe that any of the biblical prophecies were intended for distant future times; these people believe the prophecies were predictions of what was expected to happen in the foreseeable future.

I understand that this is not the traditional Christian view, but it is a view I did not make up.

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by mee

Jesus knows that after the birth of God’s Kingdom in 1914 at the time of the end, Satan and his demons are to be cast out of heaven. But now this casting out of unseen demons by mere humans serves as added assurance of that coming event. Therefore, Jesus speaks of the future fall of Satan from heaven as a certainty.
it is in a symbolic sense that the 70 are given authority to trample serpents and scorpions.

no, jesus saw satan fall from heaven, past tense, he cast him out. consequently there are demons here on earth. jesus while he walked with us, had the power to cast them out of people, such as legion. they knew who jesus was, the creator of all things, the almighty god. they probably thought because they saw him it was the end of their time, rather than be sent to the lake of fire for eternity, they asked to be sent into pigs instead. that same power jesus has to cast out satan, jesus gave to his disciples for a while to complete the huge task in front of them and to show people who the true god is, thus building up the church.

[mee]

[quote=BlaznFattyz]no, jesus saw satan fall from heaven, past tense, he cast him out. consequently there are demons here on earth. jesus while he walked with us, had the power to cast them out of people, such as legion. they knew who jesus was, the creator of all things, the almighty god. they probably thought because they saw him it was the end of their time, rather than be sent to the lake of fire for eternity, they asked to be sent into pigs instead. that same power jesus has to cast out satan, jesus gave to his disciples for a while to complete the huge task in front of them and to show people who the true god is, thus building up the church.[/quote before 1914 satan could come and go from heaven to earth , some time in heaven ,sometime on the earth . but when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment in 1914, the first thing that Jesus did was not allow the rebel back in heaven anymore. that is why the earth is full of things in opposition to Gods purpose, and satan knows that he has a short period of time left.
All who remained in that heavenly realm were loyal to Jehovah and fully submissive to his sovereignty. but not those who were thrown out of the heavens. they were in opposition to Gods purpose.
when the wicked angels still had access to heaven, they were outcasts from God’s family and under definite restrictions. For instance, Jude 6 reveals that already in the first century C.E., they were "reserved with eternal bonds under dense [spiritual] darkness for the judgment of the great day." Likewise, 2 Peter 2:4 says: "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus [a state of utter debasement], delivered them to pits of dense [spiritual] darkness to be reserved for judgment

[mee]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I guess the question for me is how do humans know that God's kingdom was born in 1914?

How do humans know that Satan was cast out of heaven in 1914?

What evidence do humans have that anything special happened in the spiritual realm in 1914?

Why did Jesus say "I beheld Satan fall" (past tense) if he meant ninteen centuries in the future?

Based on what I have seen of JWs, they tend to have some kind of logical answer for their beliefs. I can't quite figure out what the logic is behind these assertions. Can you help me out?

All of the beliefs of JW are bible based, and the date of 1914 is based on bible prophecy and chronology, Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly goverment right on time in line with bible prophecy and chronology, ....... the appointed times of the nations ,or the end of the gentile times .
How did JW know more than 30 years in advance that 1914 would be an important date for divine rulership? Though the JW at the time did not understand the full implication of events about to take place, the Watch Tower magazine as far back as December of 1879 pointed to 1914 as a marked date in regard to Bible prophecy. And the March 1880 issue of the Watch Tower linked God’s Kingdom rule with the ending of what Jesus Christ referred to as "the appointed times of the nations," or "the times of the Gentiles." (Luke 21:24; Authorized Version) That Watch Tower said: "‘The Times of the Gentiles’ extend to 1914, and the heavenly kingdom will not have full sway till then. ...............yes i can see its all happening in this time right now, i am glad the early bible students of the bible ,kept awake to the prophecies in the bible , and did not fall asleep to them because Jehovah reveals many things to the ones who did not fall asleep . thrilling times indeed .

[BlaznFattyz]

[quote=mee]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

no, jesus saw satan fall from heaven, past tense, he cast him out. consequently there are demons here on earth. jesus while he walked with us, had the power to cast them out of people, such as legion. they knew who jesus was, the creator of all things, the almighty god. they probably thought because they saw him it was the end of their time, rather than be sent to the lake of fire for eternity, they asked to be sent into pigs instead. that same power jesus has to cast out satan, jesus gave to his disciples for a while to complete the huge task in front of them and to show people who the true god is, thus building up the church.[/quote before 1914 satan could come and go from heaven to earth , some time in heaven ,sometime on the earth . but when Jesus was made king of Gods heavenly kingdom goverment in 1914, the first thing that Jesus did was not allow the rebel back in heaven anymore. that is why the earth is full of things in opposition to Gods purpose, and satan knows that he has a short period of time left.
All who remained in that heavenly realm were loyal to Jehovah and fully submissive to his sovereignty. but not those who were thrown out of the heavens. they were in opposition to Gods purpose.
when the wicked angels still had access to heaven, they were outcasts from God’s family and under definite restrictions. For instance, Jude 6 reveals that already in the first century C.E., they were "reserved with eternal bonds under dense [spiritual] darkness for the judgment of the great day." Likewise, 2 Peter 2:4 says: "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus [a state of utter debasement], delivered them to pits of dense [spiritual] darkness to be reserved for judgment

you have no scripture to support your 1914, because its not there. same old preaching of the watchtower rather than the gospel.

[wil]

[quote=BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by mee

you have no scripture to support your 1914, because its not there. same old preaching of the watchtower rather than the gospel.

This is where I get confused on Christianity and forgiveness, love and compassion.

There are two sides to every story and while I don't understand the JW perspective, this is thread discussing that, if one doesn't have a beneficial remark, is any remark required?

On the other side, since the 1914 is touted so much there has to be a chart/graph/spreadsheet someplace that allows clearly one to say ok we are starting here...and then due to this we add, and due to this scripture we add...

I'm really finding in life if you want someone to understand something, or do something, or give something....make it easy for them...lay the cards on the table...

From what I've seen of Ruby's posts I'd assume her interest in expanding her knowledge and exploring concepts/ideas foriegn to her is sincere.

And from what I've seen of mee's posts they are nothing but sincere, you gotta admire faith...and I see no need to dis ones path, the concept of oneness and the omnipresence of spirit indicates that if we do we are dissing are own...hmmm that is me being judgemental again....

[RubySera_Martin]

[quote=wil]

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

This is where I get confused on Christianity and forgiveness, love and compassion.

There are two sides to every story and while I don't understand the JW perspective, this is thread discussing that, if one doesn't have a beneficial remark, is any remark required?

Good point. I wondered the same thing.

On the other side, since the 1914 is touted so much there has to be a chart/graph/spreadsheet someplace that allows clearly one to say ok we are starting here...and then due to this we add, and due to this scripture we add...

I'm really finding in life if you want someone to understand something, or do something, or give something....make it easy for them...lay the cards on the table...

From what I've seen of Ruby's posts I'd assume her interest in expanding her knowledge and exploring concepts/ideas foriegn to her is sincere.

Yes, my curiosity is sincere.

And from what I've seen of mee's posts they are nothing but sincere, you gotta admire faith...

I try to admire faith but that is a failing I live with. I can better understand and accept a person's faith if the data is on the table so I know why they believe as they do. So you're right on, Wil, in your suggestion. I would be interested in seeing the actual biblical data or argument that fixes 1914 as a special date.

Mee, I understand you are excited to be living in these "last times" as you understand it. I was taught that there is more to life than exitement and thrills. Is this not part of JW teachings? I ask because it seems you end every post with your feelings of being thrilled, as though that were a solid foundation for faith. And I find this somewhat puzzling.

[inhumility]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

I would be interested in seeing the actual biblical data or argument that fixes 1914 as a special date.
Mee, I understand you are excited to be living in these "last times" as you understand it.

If one could not truly understand the very first prophecy of Jesus being fullfulled after the incident of Cross,I doubt if one can understand the prophecy of last times.
Failed prophecies:

About 30 CE : The Christian Scriptures (New Testament), when interpreted literally, appear to record many predictions by Jeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) that God's Kingdom would arrive within a very short period, or was actually in the process of arriving. For example, Jesus is recorded as saying in Matthew 16:28: "...there shall be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." In Matthew 24:34, Yeshua is recorded as saying: "...This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." Since the life expectancy in those days was little over 30 years, Jesus appears to have predicted his second coming sometime during the 1st century CE. It didn't happen.


Thanks

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by inhumility

If one could not truly understand the very first prophecy of Jesus being fullfulled after the incident of Cross,I doubt if one can understand the prophecy of last times.

Sometimes one can understand if it is explained. If you cannot explain, I would hope you were kind enough to be honest about it rather than speaking so condescendingly. The fact of the matter is that I can normally understand things if they are clearly explained. If you choose not to explain and then look down your nose at me for not knowing that which you refuse to explain--well, then I think you are demonstrating an uncharitable attitude.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

Sometimes one can understand if it is explained. If you cannot explain, I would hope you were kind enough to be honest about it rather than speaking so condescendingly. The fact of the matter is that I can normally understand things if they are clearly explained. If you choose not to explain and then look down your nose at me for not knowing that which you refuse to explain--well, then I think you are demonstrating an uncharitable attitude.

Ruby, Inhumility's perspective is one of many. Others interpret the passages differently (as you pointed out earlier that we are want to do).

v/r

Q

[mee]

[quote=BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by mee

you have no scripture to support your 1914, because its not there. same old preaching of the watchtower rather than the gospel.

understanding of bible prophecy reveals many things in this time of the end .thrilling times indeed.

1914—A

Significant Year in Bible Prophecy

DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations ["the times of the Gentiles," King James Version] are fulfilled." Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on "Jehovah’s throne" as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.
How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be "trampled on by the nations"? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. "Jehovah’s throne" became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26) Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: "Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) The one who has "the legal right" to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.
When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw an immense tree that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: "Let seven times pass over it."—Daniel 4:10-16.
In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of "seven times." How long a period is that?
Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal "a thousand two hundred and sixty days." "Seven times" would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of "a day for a year," the "seven times" would cover 2,520 years.

The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, "the appointed times of the nations" ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

Just as Jesus predicted, his "presence" as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of "the last days" of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5