the Bible from a Jehovah's Witness perspective - Page 7

mee · 10-09-2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

if you think you are saying it right and believe it to be the name im sure thats all that matters to you. no matter what anyone says (even if jewish/hebrew scholars know the correct name, and jw recognize jehovah is a misspelling of ywhw) it wont stop you, so it doesnt matter really what anyone says.

the issue between mainstream christianity and jw may be something alittle more important than that. everytime jw's take out what the original authors wrote and substitute it with jehova, it isnt just the name, its the conotations behind it. that being jw's not believing in the trinity the same way as the jesus stated that he his father and the holy spirit are one. so when a jw says "jehova god" (even when that pairing is no where in the bible) they are talking about something different then when christians say refer to god our lord.

The fact is we havent taken the devine name away, we have put it back where it rightly belongs, we do not believe in the trinity because it is not a bible teaching , and yes Jesus is a mighty one , but he is not the Allmighty , there is only one true God .and Jesus is the first-born son of That true God Jehovah. and yes, there is a huge difference between christendom, and the bible teachings of JW , its the difference between faithfulness to the bible and its teachings ,and unfaithfulness ,yes there is a very big gap between the two ,that was very plain for me to see when i decided to compare the teaching of christendom with the teaching of JW , i could see that JW ,they stick to the bible very closely and have not taken on the trappings of other things, in fact they have cast certain things away from them when they realized from their study of the bible that it was not in line with true teaching in line with the bible ,now that is humility to recognize that what they were doing was not a true teaching and cast it out. yes to worship in spirit and truth is the aim of JW just as Jesus was a faithful witness that is the aim of JW

Curios Mike · 10-09-2005, 01:25 PM

WOW this thread got popular pretty quick! I had to search hard for my last post and the answer.LOL YEs about Our churches starting off similar. U stated about knowing the Fruits... The ladies and gents that started up our version of the reinstated 1st century church boar the fruits of the spirit, but you still never stated how it all got started???? for the JW clan....

E99 · 10-09-2005, 01:49 PM

Hi Blaznfattyz.......
Your QUOTE:
a messianic jewish scriptural view:
"Hebrew name YHWH "Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey" in the Jewish Scriptures. Many have guessed, with saying it is Jehovah or Yaweh, but it is said by the Jewish people traditionally and historically, that it is unpronounceable. In fact it is traditionally said that only the High Priest knew this trusted pronounciation and that it was lost after the destruction of the Temple.

The 'many' haven't blindly guessed the name Jehovah or Yahweh, it is based on analysis of ancient Hebrew manuscipts, Hebrew language, and the way other biblical names have been translated. (Below.) Certain facts are known, and the Anglicized name is based on these facts.

How can they say that it is unpronouncable when it was spoken aloud by so many OT prophets, judges, kings and the whole populace ? Its full pronounciation might be lost now, but it can still be recognised in any language by an all knowing being...Jehovah God himself.

High priest only ! There were many more biblical characters in the bible that were not high priests that used, pronounced and wrote the name of Jehovah in many contexts. Just look at the bible. Jehovah is mentioned 6972 times. More than all other names put together.

Your QUOTE:

"Out of respect and fear for mispronouncing His Name, the word Adonia (Lord), God, and the expression HaShem (The Name) is said when His name is seen in the Hebrew Bible and when used in Jewish synagogue prayers, and writings, etc. When vowell marks were added to the Jewish Bible to help Jews and others to be able to read and speak the text accurately, no vowell marks were given for His Name "Yod-Hey-Vav-Hey". I know most all English translations of the Bible use Jehovah. Personally I think this is wrong. "

Exactly.....Not spoken, and nearly obliterated out of fear. The reason why Jehovah, the name of God was taken out of the scrolls on translation from Hebrew to Greek. Pure superstitions.
God wants his name to be known. There are so many scriptures that bare this out.
Adoni refers to 'my God' and adonai refers to God.
By taking out Jehovah, the name of God in the scriptures you end up with a jumble e.g.. Psalms 110:1 in the NASB:

"The LORD says to my Lord: Sit at my right hand."

This scripture should use the name Jehovah in the first instance of the mistransliterated generic term adonai (lord.) There is no founding reason to take away the name of God.

Jehovah wants his name to be known.......

"That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth." Ps 83:18 King James Version

"And I will sanctify my great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, saith the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes." Ezekiel 36:23 ASV

John 12:28 (ASV) "Father, glorify thy name. There came therefore a voice out of heaven, [saying], I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again'

Do you also wish not to use his name out of fear ? Don't be afraid. Jehovah wants his name to be used.

Your QUOTE:

"THE UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA says "JEHOVAH is an erroneous pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton a four lettered name of God, made up of the Hebrew letters Yod He Vav He. The word "JEHOVAH" therefore is a misreading for which there is no warrant and which makes no sense in Hebrew" The Hebrew letters point to a Yod Y the more correct pronunciation is Yahweh or some form deriving from the same consonants. For example Yah is used in its shorter form in Ex.15:2 and 17:15, Isa.12:2 and Ps.118:14 ."

Some people render the four-letter Name as "Jehovah," but this pronunciation is particularly unlikely. The word "Jehovah" comes from the fact that ancient Jewish texts used to put the vowels of the Name "Adonai" (the usual substitute for YHVH) under the consonants of YHVH to remind people not to pronounce YHVH as written. A sixteenth century German Christian scribe, while transliterating the Bible into Latin for the Pope, wrote the Name out as it appeared in his texts, with the consonants of YHVH and the vowels of Adonai, and came up with the word JeHoVaH, and the name stuck

Not 100% correct. Neither an absolute reason not to use the Anglicized name of Jehovah.

Here are Bible names that use the 1st part of the Divine Name:

Jehoaddah (literally YEHOADDA)
Jehoaddan (literally YEHOADDAN)
Jehoahaz (literally YEHOAHAZ)
Jehoash (literally YEHOAS)
Jehohanan (literally YEHOHANAN)
Jehoiachin (literally YEHOYAKIN)
Jehoiada (literally YEHOYADA)
Jehoiakim (literally YEHOYAQIM)
Jehoiarib (literally YEHOYARIB)
Jehonadab (literally YEHONADAB)
Jehonathan (literally YEHONATAN)
Jehoram (literally YEHORAM)
Jehoshabeath (literally YEHOSABAT)
Jehoshaphat (literally YEHOSAPAT)
Jehosheba (literally YEHOSEBA)
Jehoshua (literally YEHOSUA)
Jehozabad (literally YEHOZABAD)
Jehozadak (literally YEHOSADAQ)

To say that Jehovah is an erroneous rendering is to say that all of the above names are erroneous renderings, and give no sense in Hebrew, but we, and you use them.
You'd better start learning Hebrew so that you can get in line with your thoughts of not using the name Jehovah ! You can't use the above Anglicized names either.

As pointed out before, Yahweh is a poor representation of the tetragrammaton YHWH Jehovah the central vowel is dropped which is never the case in the names of biblical persons with the divine name intrinsically incorporated within them (as above.) They are never two syllable.The Hebrews always used the middle vowel in names.
So repetition for emphasis.......

It has been shown that the original was not bisyllable "Yahweh" but a trisyllabic one "Yehowah."... A Hebrew approxiamation. Jehovah then would be a correct English trisyllable transliteration of the original.

A two-syllable pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton as "Yahweh" would not allow for the o vowel sound to exist as part of God’s name. But in the many biblical names that incorporate the divine name, this middle vowel sound appears in both the original and the shortened forms, as in Jehonathan and Jonathan.

Thus, Quote: Professor Buchanan says regarding the divine name:

"In no case is the vowel oo or oh omitted. The word was sometimes abbreviated as ‘Ya,’ but never as ‘Ya-weh.’ . . . When the Tetragrammaton was pronounced in one syllable it was ‘Yah’ or ‘Yo.’ When it was pronounced in three syllables it would have been ‘Yahowah’ or ‘Yahoowah.’ If it was ever abbreviated to two syllables it would have been ‘Yaho.’(not Yahweh) -Biblical Archaeology Review.

J in German is pronounced like an English Y. Theological studies having come from the German sources, we get an English J and the Y intermix.

Should we change Jacob, Joseph, Jehoshaphat, Joshua etc. to begin with a Y, and should we at this late date change Jehovah to Yahweh."

Your QUOTE:
"JW also admit that Jehovah is not the correct name "down through the centuries, the correct pronunciation of the divine name in Hebrew has been lost. Hence, it is uncertain what vowels should be used to fill in the name."(WatchTower Feb.1, 1980)."

That was 25 years ago, since, more has come to light. Of course it is not the exact name. Its not known. Jehovah is the Anglicized name not the Hebrew one. But God wants us to use his name, so the omnipotent being knew what was going to happen in the future and the thousands of languages that would develop from his original sets of Babel confused languages, so that he allows for this, and readily accepts anyone that attempts to use his name.

God is love, and by this love he accepts his 'children' calling upon his name. What he wants to do is distinguish between his name Jehovah and the title God. this makes a big difference, because the title God is used for many divine beings and other things in the bible.

1 Corinthians 8 :5 For even though there are those who are called gods, wether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many gods and many lords.

Philippians 3:19 And their finish is destruction and their god is their belly.

Commandment......Jehovah is a god exacting exclusive devotion, so we give Him that exact recognition.

BlaznFattyz · 10-09-2005, 04:06 PM

Your QUOTE:
"JW also admit that Jehovah is not the correct name "down through the centuries, the correct pronunciation of the divine name in Hebrew has been lost. Hence, it is uncertain what vowels should be used to fill in the name."(WatchTower Feb.1, 1980)."

your quote "That was 25 years ago, since, more has come to light. Of course it is not the exact name. Its not known. Jehovah is the Anglicized name not the Hebrew one. But God wants us to use his name, so the omnipotent being knew what was going to happen in the future and the thousands of languages that would develop from his original sets of Babel confused languages, so that he allows for this, and readily accepts anyone that attempts to use his name."

yes i have mentioned the above on earlier posts as well. like i also said in earlier threads, and this has been for every christian church i have attended, we use jehovah once in a while, as well as other names for god. but when names get changed in different languages is one thing that i think most accept. the HUGE difference is when jw's say the name jehova they are not sharing the same meaning of the name with christians, which is why jw's have difficulty with the scriptures when god calls jesus god, and jesus calls himself god, and he and god are one and both i am, and becuase of that they use a bible that changes the original scripture to fit what they believe, isnt that right?

JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... Col 2:9for in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.... Hebrews 1:7-8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the sceptre of your kingdom. (John 10:30-33) I and the Father are one. - (Romans 9:5) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. (Tit 2:13) while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, (Exo 3:14- 15) God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' (John 8:58) “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I AM!”

mee · 10-09-2005, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

Your QUOTE:
"JW also admit that Jehovah is not the correct name "down through the centuries, the correct pronunciation of the divine name in Hebrew has been lost. Hence, it is uncertain what vowels should be used to fill in the name."(WatchTower Feb.1, 1980)."

your quote "That was 25 years ago, since, more has come to light. Of course it is not the exact name. Its not known. Jehovah is the Anglicized name not the Hebrew one. But God wants us to use his name, so the omnipotent being knew what was going to happen in the future and the thousands of languages that would develop from his original sets of Babel confused languages, so that he allows for this, and readily accepts anyone that attempts to use his name."

yes i have mentioned the above on earlier posts as well. like i also said in earlier threads, and this has been for every christian church i have attended, we use jehovah once in a while, as well as other names for god. but when names get changed in different languages is one thing that i think most accept. the HUGE difference is when jw's say the name jehova they are not sharing the same meaning of the name with christians, which is why jw's have difficulty with the scriptures when god calls jesus god, and jesus calls himself god, and he and god are one and both i am, and becuase of that they use a bible that changes the original scripture to fit what they believe, isnt that right?

JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... Col 2:9for in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form.... Hebrews 1:7-8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the sceptre of your kingdom. (John 10:30-33) I and the Father are one. - (Romans 9:5) Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. (Tit 2:13) while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, (Exo 3:14- 15) God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' (John 8:58) “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I AM!”

so then getting back to what JW believe inline with the whole of the bible,
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. This one was in [the] beginning with God john 1;1-2

(Proverbs 8:30) then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time,

(John 17:5) So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was .....yes Gods son was in the heavens before he came to the earth he (Jesus) was the first-born of jehovah ,but everything else that was created after Jesus, was created through Jesus himself , he was a master worker

(Colossians 1:16) because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him

(Genesis 1:26) And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth." .......yes let us make man , here Jehovah God is speaking to his son when he was in his pre-human form in the heavens with Jehovah God .

(John 1:3) All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

(Micah 5:2) "And you, O Beth´le·hem Eph´ra·thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite....yes his origin is from early times right back to in the beginning with God in the heavens

(Proverbs 8:22) "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago

(John 8:58) Jesus said to them: "Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.......yes he was before Abraham he is the first-born of creation

(Colossians 1:17) Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist

(Philippians 2:6) who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.....yes when he was in the heavens he was a master worker but he never tried to be equal to God

YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am john 14;28

(Revelation 3:14) "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
(John 1:14) So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth

(John 3:16) "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

(1 John 4:9) By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him. yes, JW believe that Jesus is Gods only begotten son just as the bible teaches

(Romans 8:32) He who did not even spare his own Son but delivered him up for us all, why will he not also with him kindly give us all other things?

(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

(Hebrews 1:2) has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things ..........yes as the bible tells us Jesus is Gods son not God himself

mee · 10-09-2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

WOW this thread got popular pretty quick! I had to search hard for my last post and the answer.LOL YEs about Our churches starting off similar. U stated about knowing the Fruits... The ladies and gents that started up our version of the reinstated 1st century church boar the fruits of the spirit, but you still never stated how it all got started???? for the JW clan....

the faithful slave spoken of in matthew 24;45-47was started at pentecost 33 c.e
"Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics?"—MATTHEW 24:45

What about today? When Jesus’ presence began in 1914, did he find a group of anointed Christians who were faithfully dispensing food at the proper time? He certainly did. This group could be clearly identified because of the fine fruitage that it was producing. (Matthew 7:20) History since then has proved this identification to be correct

Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men] matthew 7;20

BlaznFattyz · 10-09-2005, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

..........yes as the bible tells us Jesus is Gods son not God himself

i disagree, and just so everyone knows jw believe jesus is michael the archangel and not god, which is not told in the bible, isnt that right?

if jesus is an archangel, then the bible tells us do not worship angels, only god. so god said to worship jesus, because jesus is in the father and the father is in jesus, , and they are one from beginning, and jesus is eternal life and the only way to salvation:

when john saw an angel he bowed down, but this happened:
(Rev 22:8-9) I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.9. But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow-servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

Jesus is to be worshipped.
(Hebrews 1:5-8) For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”? And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”
In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.”

But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever..."

Jesus is the only saviour
(Isa 43:11) I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no saviour.
(Acts 4:11-12) He is “ ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone. Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”

Jesus is the the great I AM, the first and the last, our God:
(Isa 44:6) "This is what the LORD says- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
(Rev 1:17)I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Rev 21:6- 7) He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

from prophecy in old testament to fulfillment in new testament, jesus is our god. what is the jw perspective on these prophecies/fulfillments?

mee · 10-10-2005, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

i disagree, and just so everyone knows jw believe jesus is michael the archangel and not god, which is not told in the bible, isnt that right?

thats ok if you disagree , this thread is about the beliefs of JW not really a debate thread , i am putting over what we believe, if you disagree thats fine

the understanding about the bible is progressive ,in these last days new understanding about the bible is like the light getting brighter and brighter Regarding progressive spiritual enlightenment, Proverbs 4:18 has proved true. It says: "The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established

Clear understanding of God’s Word doesnot come all at once. In many cases in the past and now,the early bible students and JW now,grasp one detail of the pattern of truth but do not always see the complete picture. Nevertheless, the early bible students and JW now,were willing to learn. They are not creed-bound; they were and are now,progressive. What they learn they share. They donot take credit for the things they taught; their aim is tobe "taught by Jehovah." (John 6:45) And they came to appreciate that Jehovah makes possible the understanding of the details of his purpose in his own time and in his own way.

And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end...Daniel 12;9

I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming JOHN16;12-13

Learning new things requires adjustments in viewpoint. If mistakes are going to be admitted and beneficial changes made, humility is needed. This quality and its fruits are desirable to Jehovah, and such a course strongly appeals to lovers of truth. (Zeph. 3:12) But it is ridiculed by those who glory in creeds that have remained unchanged for many centuries, though these were formulated by imperfect men

Quahom1 · 10-10-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mee

thats ok if you disagree , this thread is about the beliefs of JW not really a debate thread , i am putting over what we believe, if you disagree thats fine

the understanding about the bible is progressive ,in these last days new understanding about the bible is like the light getting brighter and brighter Regarding progressive spiritual enlightenment, Proverbs 4:18 has proved true. It says: "The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established

Clear understanding of God’s Word doesnot come all at once. In many cases in the past and now,the early bible students and JW now,grasp one detail of the pattern of truth but do not always see the complete picture. Nevertheless, the early bible students and JW now,were willing to learn. They are not creed-bound; they were and are now,progressive. What they learn they share. They donot take credit for the things they taught; their aim is tobe "taught by Jehovah." (John 6:45) And they came to appreciate that Jehovah makes possible the understanding of the details of his purpose in his own time and in his own way.

And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end...Daniel 12;9

I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming JOHN16;12-13

Learning new things requires adjustments in viewpoint. If mistakes are going to be admitted and beneficial changes made, humility is needed. This quality and its fruits are desirable to Jehovah, and such a course strongly appeals to lovers of truth. (Zeph. 3:12) But it is ridiculed by those who glory in creeds that have remained unchanged for many centuries, though these were formulated by imperfect men

Absolutely correct. This is a thread about the JW's beliefs, not a debate on the merits of such...

v/r

Q

17th Angel · 10-10-2005, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

What a profound statement, Virtual Cliff. Interesting that you brought something to my attention. BTW, it's nice to see you around - haven't seen you in a while.

I have met other Christians whose faith is based more on their fear of the devil than on their love of God as well. Most of them were/are Jehovah's Witnesses. These people seem to be more in contact with demonic forces more than any other denomination of Christianity that I've known. My grandmother spoke of the same things that E99 speak of. Not to say that JW draws demons, but that it is a religion which is a sort of 'safe haven' for those who have a good healthy fear of the devil. Hmmm. I guess that is why I have such a problem with JWs. Guess it all depends on how you view the spirit world.

I've always thought that if you carry a demon with you, then it can attract other demons. Interesting.

I do not believe this to be at all true for an overall look at JW's. I have three of them over my house on Saturday mornings, whenever I even mention demons, satan or hell they will briefly mention an answer then move on swiftly.

BlaznFattyz · 10-10-2005, 04:31 PM

oh ya i agree with no need to argue, however i would say this is a discussion, because the more a jw responds back, the more confusing it sounds, so i have more questions. to get an answer i am putting my belief out there and why, giving some history of jw as i know it and asking jw for a response back on their take on it. of course i never got any specific response back regarding prophetic and fulfillment scriptures i posted that lead to my question, but thats ok, since you called it a debate and totally went around or avoided the scriptures i posted, i wont ask anymore.

Quahom1 · 10-10-2005, 04:48 PM

Ask the questions, Blaze...debating the answers is a place not to go. This is the JW's perspective.

v/r

Q

mee · 10-10-2005, 08:47 PM

Michael means "Who Is Like God?" The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies .it was michael who cleaned the heavenly goverment of the rebels , this is spoken of in revelation 12; 7-9

And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. ..... this war broke out in 1914 when Jesus was made king of Gods kingdom, he no longer wanted rebellious angels in the kingdom goverment so out they went ,no longer did they have access into the heavens , before 1914 they had access to the heavens and the earth ,but after 1914 and the war in heaven , they were cast out of the heavens for good ,that is why since 1914 we are seeing an increase in all of the signs that Jesus mentioned . war, earthquakes ,famine , increase in crime, critical times hard to deal with all happening as a composite sign , but inamongst this sign , one of the signs Jesus spoke of ,involved Good news rather than bad news
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come . matthew 24;14...yes this is Good news indeed ,because it is the news that Jesus kingdom has been established in the heavens, and soon Jesus will destroy the wicked for Good , and Satan knows this, thats why he knows he has a short period of time left to coarse problems on the earth

On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time. revelation 12;12....yes the bible indicates that micheal is non other than Jesus christ himself.

truthseeker · 10-11-2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlaznFattyz

oh ya i agree with no need to argue, however i would say this is a discussion, because the more a jw responds back, the more confusing it sounds, so i have more questions. to get an answer i am putting my belief out there and why, giving some history of jw as i know it and asking jw for a response back on their take on it. of course i never got any specific response back regarding prophetic and fulfillment scriptures i posted that lead to my question, but thats ok, since you called it a debate and totally went around or avoided the scriptures i posted, i wont ask anymore.

If I can, I'd have to agree and disagree. It's really hard to be able to relate to JW if you believe Jesus is God. That is where the split is. I am no longer JW, and even through careful study I don't see where Jesus proclaims he is the Almighty Father or where the Almighty Father proclaims to be Jesus. Please excuse me because I have had this discussion before, but for me if one is the other then it should be vise versa - but the thought that Jesus is God brings comfort to many and I think for that reason it is okay. The problem that I have with JW is the claim that it is the only true religion and everything else is false teaching and that Jehovah sees no one but them - but I also have that problem with Church of Christ. I guess no Christian faith can proclaim itself as a religion unless it's shooting down every other Christian faith and saying that it alone holds the absolute truth.

And I have to say that this often turns into a debate because although JW may call itself Christian, it seeks to become a completely different Christian entity than Christianity as we know it. JW says it is Christian and yet it separates itself from the rest of the Christian world and calls it false teaching. I'm not saying this is wrong - whatever. But this is another division in Christianity for those of us who seek to unify Christianity through understanding. JW doesn't want to understand the Christian world because it has separated itself from it. The only thing you can do is understand them. I agree that understanding the bible is progressive. How ever you see the world today, you will find evidence to back it up in the Bible. JW believe we are living in the last days of Satan's rule over the earth. They believe in The Revelation literally. So considering how the world has changed and will change for The Ultimate Battle very soon, they see the language of their Bible to be fitting for this event.

Though Christianity appears to be divided at this time, we are a complete body in faith. I wonder if I'll be around when this thing really fires up. Just think - all this bickering that Christians do, kinda like one big disfunctional family; and it will be interesting to see how all of those divisions who believe will come together to create the body of Christ - the whole armour of God. (Ephesians 6)

Bandit · 10-11-2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by truthseeker

If I can, I'd have to agree and disagree. It's really hard to be able to relate to JW if you believe Jesus is God. That is where the split is. I am no longer JW, and even through careful study I don't see where Jesus proclaims he is the Almighty Father or where the Almighty Father proclaims to be Jesus. Please excuse me because I have had this discussion before, but for me if one is the other then it should be vise versa - but the thought that Jesus is God brings comfort to many and I think for that reason it is okay. The problem that I have with JW is the claim that it is the only true religion and everything else is false teaching and that Jehovah sees no one but them - but I also have that problem with Church of Christ. I guess no Christian faith can proclaim itself as a religion unless it's shooting down every other Christian faith and saying that it alone holds the absolute truth.

And I have to say that this often turns into a debate because although JW may call itself Christian, it seeks to become a completely different Christian entity than Christianity as we know it. JW says it is Christian and yet it separates itself from the rest of the Christian world and calls it false teaching. I'm not saying this is wrong - whatever. But this is another division in Christianity for those of us who seek to unify Christianity through understanding. JW doesn't want to understand the Christian world because it has separated itself from it. The only thing you can do is understand them. I agree that understanding the bible is progressive. How ever you see the world today, you will find evidence to back it up in the Bible. JW believe we are living in the last days of Satan's rule over the earth. They believe in The Revelation literally. So considering how the world has changed and will change for The Ultimate Battle very soon, they see the language of their Bible to be fitting for this event.

Though Christianity appears to be divided at this time, we are a complete body in faith. I wonder if I'll be around when this thing really fires up. Just think - all this bickering that Christians do, kinda like one big disfunctional family; and it will be interesting to see how all of those divisions who believe will come together to create the body of Christ - the whole armour of God. (Ephesians 6)

yah. but it is not just the JW that say they are the only right religion. every christian religion on the market sends all the other christian religions to hell & claims to be the only true religion, though not every person or pastor in their chosen relgion is that way. the two denominations that i have come across that do not do that is the Christian Science & Episcopal.

i have watched it go on for almost 40 years in my home town, churches speaking ill about the other churches bringing divisions & false accusations is one thing we are taught not to do in the scriptures.

i really dont see these religions coming together because it has been inbred into peoples thinking, though some people will step out of their traditions over time to come together with those who are willing to put aside doctrinal issues. i think these divisions have been provoked by organized religion for 2000 years due to a false sense of security induced by the leaderships & it takes devastation & desolation to bring them together.

people have been fighting over the godhead & how Jesus fits into that forever & i dont see that changing either, except for the few who do not make issues over it & can speak to each other with a respectful attitude & understand that one persons beliefs are just as strong as anothers.
i see & feel a lot of anxiety & apprehensive behavior in religion that brings pain & it can not be coming from Jesus, or at least that is what i think.
From the scriptures- I do not see Jesus IS God, but rather I see Jesus AS God & that is probably why i can relate to the JW on that.

i see partial truths in them all without joining any of them & for what? just to be excommunicated if you have a different view.

just thinking out loud Truthseeker, because you have a good way of bringing out some of my inner feelings when i read your posts & thanks for listening

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